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when fighters are at 100% training

 
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when fighters are at 100% training - 8/16/2012 6:36:30 PM   
geofflambert


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In my PBEM with vontiger, we've run into what seems to be a bug. This has happened on two other occasions that I can recall. The locations were Port Moresby and Darwin. Today it happened again at Darwin. Vontiger had a CVE/CVL force attack Darwin with Zeroes and Kates. I had two squadrons of fighters training at escort at 100%. Apparently the Oz 75 sqd intercepted (but not the other, even though the combat graphic shows both intercepting) and shot down 7 Zeroes with no losses to themselves. Vontiger says that the Zeroe pilots ranged in skill from the 60s to 84. I'm not sure if he's referring to overall exp. or air-to-air (or since they were escorts, defense). I've never seen something like this with fighters assigned to CAP. Unfortunately, vontiger does not have a save from before this but I have one from before I did my turn but after he did his. I'm not sure if that would do any good.

The reason I train pilots at 100% is threefold: they need the training, it reduces attrition when no critical attacks are occuring (just routine bombing), and I don't lose many (if any) planes destroyed on the ground.

If anyone knows what's going on here, and it is a bug, could I avoid it if they're set to train at say, ground attack? If they were set to general training? Must I stop training fighter pilots at the front lines (allowing for surprise attacks of course)?

I'm including here the combat graphic, the combat report, the list of my top pilots and the pilots from the two squadrons. I had only very recently put the RAAF 75 sqdn at the front lines and they've been 100% training the whole time. Vontiger may also post on this matter in a day or two.





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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/16/2012 6:37:08 PM   
geofflambert


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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/16/2012 6:37:58 PM   
geofflambert


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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/16/2012 6:38:41 PM   
geofflambert


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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/16/2012 6:39:19 PM   
geofflambert


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oops, I had said this one was training for escort, but it's sweep, if that makes any difference?





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< Message edited by geofflambert -- 8/16/2012 6:42:36 PM >

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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/16/2012 6:42:36 PM   
witpqs

 

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I know that sometimes units flying training can be caught up in actual combat if it happens close by. I have seen messages to that effect in the operations report. AFAIK it's a random chance based on what, I don't know. I suppose there might also be a random chance that the planes are training with real ammo that day???

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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/16/2012 6:47:49 PM   
geofflambert


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Thanks for the input, but our difficulty is the 6 to 0 casualties, and as I said, this isn't the first time this has happened (training sqdns delivering high casualties without taking any).

I should mention that most of the time fighters at 100% training do not engage at all, but every so often, it's like they see an advantage they can't resist.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 8/16/2012 6:49:39 PM >

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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/16/2012 7:13:04 PM   
geofflambert


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Here's another instance.





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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/16/2012 7:13:12 PM   
dr.hal


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Well in truth, looking at your screen captures, I don't see the outcome as all that odd, lucky yes, but not all that odd. First you had altitude advantage, which is a big plus on first pass and your pilots are no amateurs. They may not be as hot as the Jap pilots, but your chaps did have positional advantage which given the first pass many have then given them great numbers advantage. My surprise is that no Kates were knocked out of the sky. I would wonder what results you would get if you reran the turn... Hal

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 8/16/2012 7:14:21 PM >

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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/16/2012 7:13:45 PM   
geofflambert


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Here's two more.





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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/16/2012 7:33:44 PM   
Alfred

 

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No bugs here, everything WAD.

1. As witpqs mentioned air units on training do get involved in combat. Their training altitude relative to the incoming strike altitude appears to be a major determinant of whether or not they participate.

2. Changing the type of training will not impact on the chance of participating.

3. As dr.hal mentioned you were in an advantageous position. Better altitude, more aircraft than the escorting fighters, quite good pilots.

4. Fighters on escort replicate real world "close escort". They therefore fight at a relative disadvantage compared to fighters on CAP. This has been compounded by the escorts flying at low altitudes due to the altitude setting of the bombers. To replicate real world "high escort" one needs to also send in a high altitude sweep.

Alfred

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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/16/2012 7:34:05 PM   
koniu

 

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I have few time situations with such training units.

Most annoying is when you send heavy sweeps above enemy base and they finding empty air.
But when bombers arrive suddenly 50 enemy fighters jumping from clouds shotting down half of your planes.

I can understand that even in training mission fighters will attack bombers but it should work in both ways, also sweeps should have chance to intercept those training missions.

If player decide to train in range of enemy he should take all risk of doing that not only advantage of selective CAP( when only enemy fighters in air planes on training mission will not intercept - at least i have never seen it)


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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/16/2012 7:38:39 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

I have few time situations with such training units.

Most annoying is when you send heavy sweeps above enemy base and they finding empty air.
But when bombers arrive suddenly 50 enemy fighters jumping from clouds shotting down half of your planes.

I can understand that even in training mission fighters will attack bombers but it should work in both ways, also sweeps should have chance to intercept those training missions.

If player decide to train in range of enemy he should take all risk of doing that not only advantage of selective CAP( when only enemy fighters in air planes on training mission will not intercept - at least i have never seen it)



Read point 1 of my post.

Players seem to believe that in sending a sweep all they have to do is set it to maximum altitude. Well guess what, that doesn't always work. When there is a great disparity in height between the sweepers and CAP both sides may simply not see each other and thus no combat ensues. Then when the bombers come in at a much lower altitude than the sweep, they will meet the CAP whose altitude has been set much closer to the incoming strike package.

Alfred

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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/16/2012 10:03:20 PM   
geofflambert


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I'm getting this, he usually sends his sweeps in at 30k++ feet, while I never train P-40s up there because they're so crappy at those altitiudes. I guess as a result he never catches my training planes, at least so far. I think what you're saying also applies to CAP. If you put it way up high they seem less likely to intercept incoming bombing raids. I've been hitting him at Finschafen with Wirraways at between 100 and 2000 feet and they sneak in without much problem even though he puts some of his CAP at 6,000 feet. I always train between 10 and 20k. I'll discuss it with him after he has a chance to read this, but those 6 to 0 and 7 to 0 results are still, like, wow! Come to think of it, I believe those Kittyhawks were training at 12,000 feet and the Warhawks which didn't participate were training at 19,000 feet. Looks like the choices you make on altitudes in a carrier battle, both CAP and attack, could be decisive. Looks like being predictable is a bad idea. Thanks, Alfred.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 8/17/2012 3:41:03 AM >

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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/17/2012 1:16:57 AM   
JeffK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Well in truth, looking at your screen captures, I don't see the outcome as all that odd, lucky yes, but not all that odd. First you had altitude advantage, which is a big plus on first pass and your pilots are no amateurs. They may not be as hot as the Jap pilots, but your chaps did have positional advantage which given the first pass many have then given them great numbers advantage. My surprise is that no Kates were knocked out of the sky. I would wonder what results you would get if you reran the turn... Hal


Ditto, a number of pilots in the 70's experience, 4kft advantage.

Looks like they got the bounce and powered through.

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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/17/2012 1:28:58 AM   
vontiger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

.






Sorry I didn't post earlier my daughter is sick.

On this screen shot it says that the group alt for Kittyhawks is 12000 and the raid is overhead (I gather that is the Japanese raid?).
The 16 zeros are made up from 3 separate zero sqns at different heights. 1 group is at 10000(took losses), the 2nd is at 12000 (took no losses) and the last group and the group that lost the most planes is at 20000(also the group with the best pilots).

Thoughts?

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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/17/2012 3:35:48 AM   
geofflambert


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Oooh, I've been told (that doesn't mean it's true, necessarily) that fighters assigned to escort automatically go to an altitude 2000 feet above the planes they're escorting, regardless of any altitude orders you give them. There is something else going on here that I didn't think of earlier, which is that the training squadron arrived at intercept complete. Usually a few show up (in the case of CAP), then a few more, then a few more etc.. The entire squadron of Kittyhawks pounced as a unit, this may explain some of this, but I'm still suspicious. That does not obviate the fact that your escort was also complete, but as has been noted, fighters are somewhat more vulnerable when they are escorting than otherwise.

Tell your daughter you're handing me my butt, she'll at least get a little better I think. Go team!

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 8/17/2012 4:00:58 AM >

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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/17/2012 3:46:37 AM   
geofflambert


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In any case, this thread looks to me like it might be instructive generally about tactics. More thoughts from non Tech Support people are welcome.

I'd like to hear from some more people before vontiger and I figure out what if anything to do about this.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 8/17/2012 3:56:59 AM >

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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/17/2012 9:49:51 AM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vontiger
Sorry I didn't post earlier my daughter is sick.

On this screen shot it says that the group alt for Kittyhawks is 12000 and the raid is overhead (I gather that is the Japanese raid?).
The 16 zeros are made up from 3 separate zero sqns at different heights. 1 group is at 10000(took losses), the 2nd is at 12000 (took no losses) and the last group and the group that lost the most planes is at 20000(also the group with the best pilots).

Thoughts?



quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Oooh, I've been told (that doesn't mean it's true, necessarily) that fighters assigned to escort automatically go to an altitude 2000 feet above the planes they're escorting, regardless of any altitude orders you give them. There is something else going on here that I didn't think of earlier, which is that the training squadron arrived at intercept complete. Usually a few show up (in the case of CAP), then a few more, then a few more etc.. The entire squadron of Kittyhawks pounced as a unit, this may explain some of this, but I'm still suspicious. That does not obviate the fact that your escort was also complete, but as has been noted, fighters are somewhat more vulnerable when they are escorting than otherwise.

Tell your daughter you're handing me my butt, she'll at least get a little better I think. Go team!



geoff you hit the nail about escort alt.

vontiger, if you get a coordinated (escorted) raid over target, the escorts are always bombers´ altitude +2000. It does not matter whether you set the escorts on 5k or at 30k,
this only affects coordination chances (lower if not set to the bombers altitude). The altitude setting only affects the remaining part of the squad assigned to CAP duty.
If you want this to be different you have to mix in sweeps.

Hope your daughter gets well soon!


All in all these results are ok concerning the battle setup BUT what interests me though, is that with regards to the Darwin attack, ALL Kittyhawks of the 75th (a 16 plane squad) were
airborne.



This is a bit unusual. If pilot training results in all units being airborne constantly this explains the edge over comparable CAP, at least as long as a single strike is concerned.

Had the 75th been on normal CAP duty, maybe only 4-6 planes had been airborne with the rest on different states of readiness.

Could be a coincidence and bad luck, also it is entirely possible to get this result when setting CAP @ 100% as well, the strike just has to arrive at the "right" time.
So as a single result it does not meanvery much. The second strike mentioned in more detail in this thread only had 4 escorting fighters, so that explains the result
without questions left open.

As for the other examples here there is not enough data for analysis.

I shot down 12-15 unescorted Betties and another 4-5 Frances over Marcus Island, with exactly 6 outdated (P40E) operational fighters on 100% CAP, and had similar results several times.
So don´t start thinking such rather extreme results are only the byproduct of training flights being caught up in attacks.


< Message edited by LoBaron -- 8/17/2012 10:24:07 AM >


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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/17/2012 11:53:23 AM   
castor troy


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Usually squadrons on training get shot to pieces by escorts, let alone sweeps, no matter what exp/skill the unit on training got. Have never seen something comparable like in this thread and I got all my training squadrons on 100% training and have had several of them heavily hit while achieving nothing earlier in the campaign.

Besides this, the tech support forum is the wrong place for this thread.

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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/17/2012 12:23:38 PM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: vontiger
Sorry I didn't post earlier my daughter is sick.

On this screen shot it says that the group alt for Kittyhawks is 12000 and the raid is overhead (I gather that is the Japanese raid?).
The 16 zeros are made up from 3 separate zero sqns at different heights. 1 group is at 10000(took losses), the 2nd is at 12000 (took no losses) and the last group and the group that lost the most planes is at 20000(also the group with the best pilots).

Thoughts?



quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Oooh, I've been told (that doesn't mean it's true, necessarily) that fighters assigned to escort automatically go to an altitude 2000 feet above the planes they're escorting, regardless of any altitude orders you give them. There is something else going on here that I didn't think of earlier, which is that the training squadron arrived at intercept complete. Usually a few show up (in the case of CAP), then a few more, then a few more etc.. The entire squadron of Kittyhawks pounced as a unit, this may explain some of this, but I'm still suspicious. That does not obviate the fact that your escort was also complete, but as has been noted, fighters are somewhat more vulnerable when they are escorting than otherwise.

Tell your daughter you're handing me my butt, she'll at least get a little better I think. Go team!



geoff you hit the nail about escort alt.

vontiger, if you get a coordinated (escorted) raid over target, the escorts are always bombers´ altitude +2000. It does not matter whether you set the escorts on 5k or at 30k,
this only affects coordination chances (lower if not set to the bombers altitude). The altitude setting only affects the remaining part of the squad assigned to CAP duty.
If you want this to be different you have to mix in sweeps.

Hope your daughter gets well soon!


All in all these results are ok concerning the battle setup BUT what interests me though, is that with regards to the Darwin attack, ALL Kittyhawks of the 75th (a 16 plane squad) were
airborne.



This is a bit unusual. If pilot training results in all units being airborne constantly this explains the edge over comparable CAP, at least as long as a single strike is concerned.

Had the 75th been on normal CAP duty, maybe only 4-6 planes had been airborne with the rest on different states of readiness.

Could be a coincidence and bad luck, also it is entirely possible to get this result when setting CAP @ 100% as well, the strike just has to arrive at the "right" time.
So as a single result it does not meanvery much. The second strike mentioned in more detail in this thread only had 4 escorting fighters, so that explains the result
without questions left open.

As for the other examples here there is not enough data for analysis.

I shot down 12-15 unescorted Betties and another 4-5 Frances over Marcus Island, with exactly 6 outdated (P40E) operational fighters on 100% CAP, and had similar results several times.
So don´t start thinking such rather extreme results are only the byproduct of training flights being caught up in attacks.




Hmmm...I wonder wonder wonder if possibly there might be a bug-a-boo yet.

I wonder if possibly, maybe the group vontiger had at 20,000' was set to 7,000' for purpose of the escort, interception etc (WAD)...(and which had his best pilots)

...but when the actual combat was resolved, and the MVR rating was called by the code,...

...the routine used the MVR rating assigned for the units altitude setting (which was 20K' for one unit & <15k' for the others),...

...rather than the MVR rating at the altitude at which the combat was resolved (7K').

< Message edited by treespider -- 8/17/2012 12:24:21 PM >


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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/17/2012 12:52:18 PM   
Banzan

 

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Don't know, but i don't think so. I had so many bad results for escorts when "dived on", that i gave up using good pilots for escorts. I think the interesting part is the "16 Airborne" part. You'll rarly have a such good commitment of a fighter group (if ever!). Not really exploitable as training groups arn't getting caught in fight often, but still interesting.

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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/17/2012 8:36:34 PM   
geofflambert


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Thanks, everyone for the input.

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RE: when fighters are at 100% training - 8/19/2012 2:42:48 PM   
treespider


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Geoff,

Did you ever provide michael with a save so he could take a look at this and explain to us what took place and whether it needs fix'n?

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