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TF speed vs. vulnerability question

 
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TF speed vs. vulnerability question - 8/16/2012 4:19:06 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 986
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		i've adopted the habit of running my CV and Surf TFs at cruise speed when they're in transit or covering an Amph or Trans TF, using cruise speed reduces the accrual of minor damage.

are these 'slow' TFs at a disadvantage when attacked by enemy air or subs?
Post #: 1
RE: TF speed vs. vulnerability question - 8/16/2012 5:09:52 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 3263
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		No.

Alfred

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 2
RE: TF speed vs. vulnerability question - 8/16/2012 9:57:16 AM   
janh

 

Posts: 1140
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline 		How so? I always thought that at least sub intercept/torpedoing probability depended on speed as well, so I often even ran my CV TF or other warship TFs at full speed through sub infested waters... So speed makes no difference?

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 3
RE: TF speed vs. vulnerability question - 8/16/2012 10:44:58 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 3842
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		No difference.

The speed settings only influence the ammount of hexes travelled per movement phase, and the resulting fuel consumption.
It does not influence the possible combat/flank speed of ships when maneuvering in a single hex, and this is what is used for all combat calculations.

jmalter:
There is one disadvantage when using cruise speed: when reacting the TF does only travel at cruise speed as well, so
has a higher chance to fall short from whatever threat the TF is reacting to. As an alternative you could use mission speed and set the
TF destination far enough away from its original position.
If at mission speed the TF cannot cover the distance to the destination with a full speed dash, it will resume to cruise speed. So you retain the ability
to move full speed on reaction, but use cruise speed for normal travel.


_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 4
RE: TF speed vs. vulnerability question - 8/16/2012 2:50:03 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 986
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		thanks for the answers, guys. i'm relieved to know that i've not compromised the TFs' combat abilities, or transformed them into LargeSlowTargets.

my cruise-speed TFs are generally in a 'tactical defensive' mode, w/ reaction = 0. i agree that TFs that are 'on the hunt' should ride at mission speed, or even at full speed for a deep-penetration strike.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 5
RE: TF speed vs. vulnerability question - 8/16/2012 3:38:07 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 3842
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		jmalter, apologies, I stumbled over a recent post by Don Bowen, and that post suggests at least partly otherwise than I said above:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

There are a number of issues in this thread, and perhaps a little confusion about how some things work.

A sub torpedo attack involves:

  1. Can the sub fire a torpedo (or more than one)?

    • Is the target worth a torpedo (with fog of war)?
    • Can the sub get into firing position?

      • Relative speed of sub and target TF
      • Detection level of sub and TF
      • Number and skill of escorts
      • Skill and aggression of sub commander

  2. Does the torpedo hit the target?

    • Accuracy of torpedo (from device table)
    • Speed and maneuverablilty of target

  3. Does it explode?

    • Dud rate of torpedo (from device table)
    • Nothing else



To all of these, add a little luck. Or rather, random chance. For just about everything in AE, there is a random chance. A torpedo with an 80% dud rate would have an 80% chance of failure for each hit. No long term averaging or any such thing. Just a random 80%. That could mean 10 explosions in a row or 500 duds in a row. It's just random.




This means: Full speed does have an impact, not at the chance to evade an ongoing attack, but to prevent the attack itself. You might want Don to confirm this,
but his post suggests that going full speed helps in preventing torp hits.

This does not change what I wrote on cruise speed vs. mission speed in open water though.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 6
RE: TF speed vs. vulnerability question - 8/16/2012 5:42:12 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 986
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		thx for the clarification, LoBaron.

my big worry was the 2nd bullet-point in Dan Bowen's post, "Speed and maneuverablilty of target". i was thinking that setting a TF to cruise-speed would decrease its speed/maneuver rating when it was in combat - from what you & Alfred have told me, this is not the case.

< Message edited by jmalter -- 8/16/2012 6:53:46 PM >

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 7
RE: TF speed vs. vulnerability question - 8/16/2012 7:12:46 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 3263
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

jmalter, apologies, I stumbled over a recent post by Don Bowen, and that post suggests at least partly otherwise than I said above:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

There are a number of issues in this thread, and perhaps a little confusion about how some things work.

A sub torpedo attack involves:

  1. Can the sub fire a torpedo (or more than one)?

    • Is the target worth a torpedo (with fog of war)?
    • Can the sub get into firing position?

      • Relative speed of sub and target TF
      • Detection level of sub and TF
      • Number and skill of escorts
      • Skill and aggression of sub commander

  2. Does the torpedo hit the target?

    • Accuracy of torpedo (from device table)
    • Speed and maneuverablilty of target

  3. Does it explode?

    • Dud rate of torpedo (from device table)
    • Nothing else



To all of these, add a little luck. Or rather, random chance. For just about everything in AE, there is a random chance. A torpedo with an 80% dud rate would have an 80% chance of failure for each hit. No long term averaging or any such thing. Just a random 80%. That could mean 10 explosions in a row or 500 duds in a row. It's just random.




This means: Full speed does have an impact, not at the chance to evade an ongoing attack, but to prevent the attack itself. You might want Don to confirm this,
but his post suggests that going full speed helps in preventing torp hits.

This does not change what I wrote on cruise speed vs. mission speed in open water though.


Your earlier post is not invalidated by Don's post. I am well aware of Don's post and it covers the combat routine situation where the speed setting set by the player is auto overridden.

It is the same principle as air combat. Aircraft proceed to their destination at their cruise speed but when combat is joined they auto revert to their maximum speed. A TF travels at the player setting. Whether set to "cruise" or "mission" speed the presence of an undetected enemy sub is not per se going to auto change the TF speed. A detected sub sees the TF go into the combat mode routine where the auto change occurs.

Thus in practical terms there is no difference between setting the TF to "cruise" speed rather than "mission" speed for the TF will be almost always travelling at cruise. The trigger to auto change to maximum travel speed being independent of the presence of undetected subs. Thus the possibility of a sub getting into position to fire a salvo is not affected by the player set speed setting. Once into firing position the combat routine takes over and then the auto speed change occurs. Which is why it is so much harder for a sub to hit a combat vessel with its much higher maximum speed than it is to hit a merchantman.

Alfred

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 8
RE: TF speed vs. vulnerability question - 8/16/2012 7:45:47 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 3842
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Concur Alfred.

But my original post is inaccurate in 2 situations:

1) When full speed setting is used
2) If a specific situation triggers full speed on a TF with mission speed setting (such as final leg to destination hex to arrive at night with retirement allowed set)

In both instances the chances for a sub to successfully initiate an attack is lower than when using cruise speed, and considering the nature of the original
question I felt it was fair to point out these nuiances.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 9
RE: TF speed vs. vulnerability question - 8/16/2012 8:03:07 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 986
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		cheers LoBaron - on more than one occaision, i've posted inaccurate (or plainly wrong) info on this forum, then had to re-post in order to walk myself back to reality. so i appreciate that you are willing to correct yourself, to accommodate the nuances.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 10
RE: TF speed vs. vulnerability question - 8/17/2012 5:20:33 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 6195
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

jmalter, apologies, I stumbled over a recent post by Don Bowen, and that post suggests at least partly otherwise than I said above:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

There are a number of issues in this thread, and perhaps a little confusion about how some things work.

A sub torpedo attack involves:

  1. Can the sub fire a torpedo (or more than one)?

    • Is the target worth a torpedo (with fog of war)?
    • Can the sub get into firing position?

      • Relative speed of sub and target TF
      • Detection level of sub and TF
      • Number and skill of escorts
      • Skill and aggression of sub commander

  2. Does the torpedo hit the target?

    • Accuracy of torpedo (from device table)
    • Speed and maneuverablilty of target

  3. Does it explode?

    • Dud rate of torpedo (from device table)
    • Nothing else



To all of these, add a little luck. Or rather, random chance. For just about everything in AE, there is a random chance. A torpedo with an 80% dud rate would have an 80% chance of failure for each hit. No long term averaging or any such thing. Just a random 80%. That could mean 10 explosions in a row or 500 duds in a row. It's just random.




This means: Full speed does have an impact, not at the chance to evade an ongoing attack, but to prevent the attack itself. You might want Don to confirm this,
but his post suggests that going full speed helps in preventing torp hits.

This does not change what I wrote on cruise speed vs. mission speed in open water though.



And the question then remains, does the TF speed also affect the ability of the TF to detect the sub? As in real life escorts going at top speed could not use sonar effectively. In 1944 considering the quality of my ASW assets, I think I want to find the sub.

_____________________________

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Godwin's Law

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 11
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