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Soviet Force Level - 8/14/2012 12:38:26 AM   
turtlefang

 

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Assuming that the Soviets survive intact until late 42 or early 43, what is the approximate force levels should the Soviet player target:

1) how many infantry divisions or equivalents?
2) how many tank corps?
3) how many mech corp?
4) how many art divisions?

Any other major units that I may have missed?

As many as possible isn't a very helpful answer as I'm looking for sometype of force balance. I know this depends on how "bloody" the Germans are, but am looking for general guidelines to help gauge process or have something to plan to hit.

Thanks in advance --
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RE: Soviet Force Level - 8/14/2012 1:01:41 AM   
Flaviusx


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450 rifle division equivalents (eventually converting over to 150 rifle corps.)

Two dozen tank corps.

A dozen mech corps.

12-18 cav corps.

At least two dozen artillery divisions. More depending on the level of enemy fortifications. Up to 40 isn't too much.

You will be short on trucks until 43. It may be best to delay mech corps builds until then. A dozen mech corps will require around 36k trucks.

This army will require around 200k truck in total, give or take, depending on SUs and airbases. You'll be lucky to hit 150k trucks throughout most of 42. Leaving out the mech corps will put you just about at 100% truck requirements if you delay those builds until Detroit steps it up on lend lease deliveries.

You can also get around 9 guards airborne divisions from converting over all the airborne brigades in 1943; these are very strong divisions, around 6-7 CV. You may not want to flip all those over, however, save a few for drop opportunities.



< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 8/14/2012 1:07:02 AM >


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RE: Soviet Force Level - 8/14/2012 1:11:16 AM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

Assuming that the Soviets survive intact until late 42 or early 43, what is the approximate force levels should the Soviet player target:

1) how many infantry divisions or equivalents?
2) how many tank corps?
3) how many mech corp?
4) how many art divisions?

Any other major units that I may have missed?

As many as possible isn't a very helpful answer as I'm looking for sometype of force balance. I know this depends on how "bloody" the Germans are, but am looking for general guidelines to help gauge process or have something to plan to hit.

Thanks in advance --


Sorry, ill give my obligatory depence on situasion, but that said. If u ask me around.
1. 400-450 Divisional equivalents
2. 20-24ish
3. 8-10ish if u can. 2-3 is really depending on Veh pool, that depence on how many vehicles u saved in 41. So if u dont have veh enough dont build. Wait until u 43 starts to get a surplus in Veh with 6k LL per turn. Its not that big a deal.
4. 20-25 by early to mid 43. Note its a bit later than ur date. Same as above just arm pool dependant. Dont build more than u can sustain.

Hope its specific enough,

Rasmus

P.S i type soooo slow, Flavio beat me to it.

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RE: Soviet Force Level - 8/14/2012 11:58:55 AM   
gingerbread


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Don't build the early Rocket Divisions, wait until the TOE changes.

Two to three dozen '43 Mortar Brigades (the ones with 144 tubes) is not too many. Every attack that does not need/have Artillery Divisions should have some of them included. I like them more than I do the Rockets.

If (big if) you managed to save a lot of Tank Brigades, some (up to 40 or so) can be put on static to harvest some AP:s and vehicles. That will help some with the Mech Corps.

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RE: Soviet Force Level - 8/14/2012 12:32:16 PM   
Flaviusx


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Nah, just disband those extra tank brigades. Or merge them into weak tank corps. Putting them on static ties down all their non truck assets and artificially inflates the OB. Simplify. Really, you just want to get rid of the silly buggers one way or the other.

Mortar brigades are a nice way to round out a late war Army, when you've got a couple of extra command capacity after the usual 4 corps.

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RE: Soviet Force Level - 8/14/2012 1:25:34 PM   
76mm


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hmm, haven't looked at the mortar brigades before, will take a look. Last game I didn't start building artillery until early 43, will try to start earlier this time around. But at what point do the ArtDiv or MortBrig TOEs become worth getting?

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RE: Soviet Force Level - 8/14/2012 4:34:15 PM   
gingerbread


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Well, 40 Tank Brigades on static instead of disbanded means that 5 more Corps can attain Guards status. It's a net of 120 AP as well. The increased Guards cap is the reason I've changed regarding disbanding the Tank Divisions, I'd rather disband the Division than the Brigade.

The '43 Mortar Brigade is available from 4/ or 5/43. The 10/42 Artillery Division is OK to get, it will upgrade. There are not AP:s enough during late '42 to do everything you want to (is there ever). You also want to pre-build some SU:s that will go into the initial batch of Infantry Corps.

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RE: Soviet Force Level - 8/14/2012 4:53:27 PM   
Schmart

 

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turtlefang:

I've created a file to help with exactly this kind of stuff.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3126849&mpage=1&key=�

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RE: Soviet Force Level - 8/14/2012 5:21:33 PM   
Flaviusx


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40 tank brigades set on static is 2800 AFVs doing nothing. Or 1400 if you can somehow contrive to get them all to sit at 50% TOE.

I'd rather put those boys on the front line.



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RE: Soviet Force Level - 8/14/2012 7:40:32 PM   
turtlefang

 

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All -

Thanks for the quick response.

I will have to admit that I prefer Flaviusx approach to the tank bg - leaving them around static just doesn't sit well with me. I might try it once to see if it makes that big a difference but that seems like a lot of men/equip sitting there doing nothing.

Most of it fell close to what I expected. The infantry a little higher - expected around 400 divisions, but the tank/mech fell right in line. I had forgotten about the cav division so thanks for that.

The airborne units I always try to save until Dec 42 (or whenever they convert to Gds airborne).

The number of artillery divisions surprised - maybe shocked me. I've been building about a dozen to 15 or so - guess I will have to up that by a large amount. I need to practice with these - they're not seeming to produce that great a result for me.

Thanks for the response

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RE: Soviet Force Level - 8/14/2012 7:42:11 PM   
turtlefang

 

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Regarding Cav Corp

Do you assign them to a Cav army or do you parcel them out to the infantry armies? Most of mind usually end up in the center of the map near the swamp.

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RE: Soviet Force Level - 8/14/2012 7:48:53 PM   
Flaviusx


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The first 16 cav corps go into 4 shock armies, 4 per army. You might have a couple more left over after that...not enough to fill out another shock army, and the last one that arrives comes late in 1942. I just assign those leftover cav corps to any old army that can use them. Or you could pair them up with a couple of tank corps in another army for a poor man's tank army -- if you can get an army into guards status, that's a nice package to fill it out with.

Artillery is the key to cracking German fortifications. In this game the Axis builds forts like crazy, more indeed than the Soviets ever could. (Who have, y'know, a bazillion things they need to do with APs besides building FRs.) You'll never get them out in the open without the big guns.

So once you start running into nasty German stacks sitting in level 4 forts...line up the artillery. A half dozen divisions per attack or more (9 is not out of the question on a 3 sided attack) if the stack looks really tough. With a couple of dozen such divisions you can focus on a section of the line and bust forts until you get out in the clear (or at least down to level 2s, at which point you've essentially cracked the main fort line and are then hitting his quickly raised backup forts.)





< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 8/14/2012 7:55:51 PM >


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RE: Soviet Force Level - 8/14/2012 7:49:19 PM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang
The airborne units I always try to save until Dec 42 (or whenever they convert to Gds airborne).

The number of artillery divisions surprised - maybe shocked me. I've been building about a dozen to 15 or so - guess I will have to up that by a large amount. I need to practice with these - they're not seeming to produce that great a result for me.

Thanks for the response


Airborne divs is 1/43.

About result of ArtDivs. Try when doing some similar attacks to looking at the detailed tab with and with out artdivs. Inparticular disrupted elements. See if u note any difference. Note that fort lvls and terrain plays a factors in what is similar attacks.

And what Flav says. There also is a chance of a small reduction in fort during combat caused by arty, in particular heavy arty.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 8/14/2012 9:07:10 PM >

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RE: Soviet Force Level - 8/14/2012 10:23:57 PM   
Flaviusx


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Pretty much the only time I play static games with the tank brigades is the 1943 scenario, where the Red Army is so AP starved that you have to abuse any expedient possible and the Red Army has literally dozens of these worthless brigades running. And even there I bitterly regret doing this...by late summer I'm losing 1k tanks per turn in a 43 scenario, living hand to mouth on replacements per turns, and having thousands of AFVs locked in tank brigades is very frustrating indeed. Once flipped over to static, you are basically stuck. They are so expensive to return back to mobile status that it's just not worth it. So essentially you're looking at having all those assets unavailable for the rest of the game. I hate that.

In a 41 GC I would never find myself in this situation. The brigades would be long gone by summer of 43. And you would have your army organized more efficiently than is the case in the 43 scenario, where huge parts of it are severely overloaded. (The late war scenarios don't match up at all with the new and not so improved CC limits on armies.)

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 8/14/2012 10:25:21 PM >


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RE: Soviet Force Level - 8/14/2012 10:43:23 PM   
hfarrish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

So once you start running into nasty German stacks sitting in level 4 forts...line up the artillery. A half dozen divisions per attack or more (9 is not out of the question on a 3 sided attack) if the stack looks really tough. With a couple of dozen such divisions you can focus on a section of the line and bust forts until you get out in the clear (or at least down to level 2s, at which point you've essentially cracked the main fort line and are then hitting his quickly raised backup forts.)


Do you mean to do artillery-only attacks with 6+ artillery divisions, or to support your infantry attack with 6-9 artillery divisions?

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RE: Soviet Force Level - 8/14/2012 11:02:29 PM   
Flaviusx


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Always in combination with other forces.

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RE: Soviet Force Level - 8/14/2012 11:19:35 PM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Always in combination with other forces.


Concured. I at some point made a few small scale tests to see casulties with arty attacks alone. Can be done, but u dont get much out of it and more importandly counts for moral purposes for both sides, which is bad.

Rasmus

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RE: Soviet Force Level - 8/15/2012 12:57:06 AM   
hfarrish


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That's what I had thought, but just wanted to be sure my assumptions weren't wrong...good point about the morale question as well.

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