AK revisited

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AK revisited - 8/13/2012 12:44:49 AM

terje439

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Yikes do I have issues with the AK expansion.
I am no longer abloe to figure out a working force.

These are the steps I have taken so far;
1. Get an all German core. The Italians simply do not cut it. Did keep the arty unit as that one seems to do just as well/poorly as the German one.
2. Have 3 grenadiers as infantry
3. Have 7 German panzers - 3xPzIV, 4xPzIII
4. Have 2 TDs (currently one JgdPzI and one MarderIII)
5. Have 4 Bf109s (currently G version)
6. Have 1 Ju-88
7. Have 2 Ju-87Ds
8. Have one towed German arty (210mm)
9. Have one self propelled AA

The PROBLEMS I have;
1. The Italians I get to "help" me takes alot of damage, and are costing em way too much prestige just to keep alive
2. The infantry and panzer attack results are all over the place. If I see a 1:4, I am happy if I end up with a 2:2...
3. Arty hardly kills anything, will MAYBE cause 2 disruption on an enemy INF
4. The RAF chews up my fighters
5. The AA usually shows a 0:2 as a likely result, actual result seems to be 0:0 60% of the time
6. My tanks seems to be made of paper, even unentrenched infantry in the open tends to heavy damage
7. None of 1-6 seems to go the other way around
8. I am always out of prestige due to #1.

So, any hints/tips would be nice, since right now I feel dishearted about the entire campaign tbh.
(oh, and have ANYONE taken Tobruk at Dash to the Wire???)

Terje

< Message edited by terje439 -- 8/18/2012 9:05:49 AM >

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RE: Help badly needed with AK... - 8/13/2012 4:25:06 AM

Texican

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Gazala got me first time through, but I had good luck in the earlier scenarios. Now restarting and crusing through (playing "General" difficulty level).

And I like Italians in my force. Their Bersagalieri infantry is almost as good as Germans and I think cheaper to maintain (that is a factor).

I'm a big believer in combined arms, so my force:

1. 2 Germans panzers (III, IV), plus a Matilda I captured (otherwise I'd keep it at 2 probably, until later in the game)
2. Got rid of the two German AT and have 3 88's. (This will deal with the enemy air and enemy tanks)
3. 2 German infantry (kept them as grenadiers, no pionieres yet) + 3 Italian infantry.
4. 2 Italian tanks (again, lower cost for replacements and use them as backup to main tank force or infantry support, plus any Afrika Korps game without Ariete just isn't right).
5. 1 German Me109f, 1 Italian fighter, 1 Stuka, 1 Me110 (but this was special freebee unit)
6. 1 German towed artillery, 1 German self-propelled artillery (Sig II), 1 Italian artillery. I use artillery defensively, more to help an attacked unit survive than to "kill stuff", although it softens up targets for the latter.
7. 1 German recon initially (and always overstrength) and now an Italian recon in addition (that strange-looking truck unit they have).

My tactics:

1. Keep anything defensive backed by an artillery unit with AA nearby.
2. When main group moves, try to keep tanks in lead with a self-propelled artillery right behind it, some 88's nearby (to step in and counterattack maybe) and a fighter covering the group for air defense. The Italian tanks come in handy as flank protection and should not get hit too hard, normally.
3. It's okay to stop and refit (resupply, etc...) No need to go bounding too fast across the desert like Rommel (remember, Rommel played this game first in real life and he lost). Be careful with the risks.
4. Toughly defended cities have units that tend to counterattack when you move next to them. Let them throw the first punch sometimes and soften themselves up.
5. Keep a few hundred prestige on hand at all times; do not spend to zero if you can help it. If a unit gets smashed up, I often pull it out for the scenario and run it to the rear. Cheaper to fix it in between scenarios, cost-wise.

I'm no expert, and "General" setting level is about my max, even in basic Pz Corps.

Oh, and I do not even try to take Tobruk in "Dash to the Wire". I simply defend the victory hexes outside of and east of Tobruk, and use my main tank force to move southest to get the assembly area hexes and destroy the 3 Allied supply dumps. I do keep an Italian artillery, an AA gun, 3 Italian infantry and 1 Italian tank east of Tobruk to fend off the end-of-scenario counterattack. That worked just fine last time I tried.

< Message edited by Texican -- 8/13/2012 4:34:42 AM >

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Post #: 2

RE: Help badly needed with AK... - 8/13/2012 9:24:10 AM

Josh

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Tobruk in "dash to the wire" is setup to be a very hard nut to crack and not worth it IMHO. There are 14-15 lvl forts/Arty/AA everywhere. There's no Victory point there and your troops are already very stretched out, so the message is clear; STAY AWAY! :-)
It is possible however to lure the English Inf out into the open, let your Italian Inf take damage from the Artillery fire, to say 4-5 points, then the AI will decide to have a go at that "easy target". So once their trenches are empty that's the door to Tobruk... but it's some hard fighting and will cost you a lot of Prestige, so again not worth it IMO.

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RE: Help badly needed with AK... - 8/13/2012 2:09:58 PM

terje439

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Hmm restarting, but have to say that I am somewhat disappointed so far.
My main issues atm is;
1. the "instability" of the predicted losses reports. They are all over the place. Reports of 1:4 easily gives 1:0 etc.
2. the inability of many units to deal any damage at times. Never seen so many 0 dmg attacks.
3. take damage to the "wrong" unit and you are essentially F'ed as you will lack the points to bring it up to strength
4. due to lack of points you are usually low in ammount of troops, the Allies are not. True, this is historically correct, and I could live with it had it not been for points 1-3

Gonna give it a few more tries, but not too impressed so far, espesially point 1 and 2 are really getting me annoyed.

Terje

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RE: Help badly needed with AK... - 8/13/2012 2:50:44 PM

Texican

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quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439

Hmm restarting, but have to say that I am somewhat disappointed so far.
My main issues atm is;
1. the "instability" of the predicted losses reports. They are all over the place. Reports of 1:4 easily gives 1:0 etc.
2. the inability of many units to deal any damage at times. Never seen so many 0 dmg attacks.
3. take damage to the "wrong" unit and you are essentially F'ed as you will lack the points to bring it up to strength
4. due to lack of points you are usually low in ammount of troops, the Allies are not. True, this is historically correct, and I could live with it had it not been for points 1-3

Gonna give it a few more tries, but not too impressed so far, espesially point 1 and 2 are really getting me annoyed.

Terje

Almost every attack should be against a softened target (i.e., hit by air or artillery first) or polishing off a weakened enemy unit. Don't take more than a point of damage in any attack, if this can be helped; haste makes waste. Keeping your forces intact (i.e., near full strength) alleviates some of the point issues.

Almost every defense should be supported by artillery, if possible, and this applies even to groups on the move.

< Message edited by Texican -- 8/13/2012 2:54:10 PM >

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RE: Help badly needed with AK... - 8/13/2012 3:12:16 PM

terje439

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Texican

Typical attack so far;
1. Bomb/strafe the unit to reduce entrenchment
2. Arty the unit to cause supression and reduce entrenchment
3. By now an inf might be at 8 strength and 6 supression.
4. attack with a 10 strength grenadier, predicted result 0:4, actual result 1:2...

oh well, back to it.

Terje

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RE: Help badly needed with AK... - 8/13/2012 3:54:30 PM

Texican

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quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439

quote:

ORIGINAL: Texican

Almost every attack should be against a softened target (i.e., hit by air or artillery first) or polishing off a weakened enemy unit. Don't take more than a point of damage in any attack, if this can be helped; haste makes waste. Keeping your forces intact (i.e., near full strength) alleviates some of the point issues.

Almost every defense should be supported by artillery, if possible, and this applies even to groups on the move.

Which is what I do

Typical attack so far;
1. Bomb/strafe the unit to reduce entrenchment
2. Arty the unit to cause supression and reduce entrenchment
3. By now an inf might be at 8 strength and 6 supression.
4. attack with a 10 strength grenadier, predicted result 0:4, actual result 1:2...

oh well, back to it.

Terje

For entrenched stuff, maybe a pioniere might be the answer. I am guilty of not using them much and my regular grenadiers do take a beating in attacks such as you describe.

I am upgrading one experienced grenadier to a pioniere for Gazala. Will see how it works out.

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RE: Help badly needed with AK... - 8/13/2012 4:00:07 PM

terje439

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But the REAL problem remains, the actual battle result varies so much that it becomes rather impossible to set up a proper attack. Just now I attacked an enemy arty with my JgdPzI, predicted result 1:3 which is fine as that leaves the JagdPz in shape to face enemy counterattack.
Actual result, 3:2, fine, the JagdPz should still survive the enemy counterattack.

Enemy turn, the now 5 strength arty attacks the JagdPz and inflicts 4 damage, or an 80% kill ratio (compared to my own artys 0-20%), which means the JagdPz will be killed off by the enemy inf close by.

Starting to get to me now

Terje

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RE: Help badly needed with AK... - 8/13/2012 4:05:50 PM

Lord Zimoa

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Maybe play on a lower difficulty setting, that will help.

quote:

But the REAL problem remains, the actual battle result varies so much that it becomes rather impossible to set up a proper attack

For people who really don`t like probabilities, I advice you play the game in chess mode:

Press Ctrl+Alt+Shift+C to enter a cheat code. Here is a list of supported codes (#N means an integer number).

chess mode
Makes all combats play exactly as they were predicted (unless rugged defense happens)

< Message edited by Lord Zimoa -- 8/13/2012 4:07:40 PM >

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RE: Help badly needed with AK... - 8/13/2012 4:24:31 PM

terje439

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lord Zimoa

Maybe play on a lower difficulty setting, that will help.

quote:

But the REAL problem remains, the actual battle result varies so much that it becomes rather impossible to set up a proper attack

For people who really don`t like probabilities, I advice you play the game in chess mode:

Press Ctrl+Alt+Shift+C to enter a cheat code. Here is a list of supported codes (#N means an integer number).

chess mode
Makes all combats play exactly as they were predicted (unless rugged defense happens)

The thing is, I have no difficulty with this in the other PC games, but here it is all over the place. I am not saying that results should not vary from the stated, but it should be in the ballpark (+/-2 any way imo), but not like this...
Attacking a 4 strength enemy inf in the open, all 4 strength points supressed, using a grenadier with 10 strength, result 0dmg inflicted and the enemy unit retreats into a far better position.
But if this is how it is supposed to be, I'll simply write this DLC down as "not for me".

Terje

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RE: Help badly needed with AK... - 8/13/2012 5:57:22 PM

VPaulus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439
The thing is, I have no difficulty with this in the other PC games, but here it is all over the place. I am not saying that results should not vary from the stated, but it should be in the ballpark (+/-2 any way imo), but not like this...

I think this wasn't even "touched" in patch 1.10. It's the same as it was in Panzer Corps 1.05.
This has nothing to do with Afrika Korps.

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RE: Help badly needed with AK... - 8/13/2012 6:14:25 PM

terje439

Posts: 5312
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VPaulus

quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439
The thing is, I have no difficulty with this in the other PC games, but here it is all over the place. I am not saying that results should not vary from the stated, but it should be in the ballpark (+/-2 any way imo), but not like this...

I think this wasn't even "touched" in patch 1.10. It's the same as it was in Panzer Corps 1.05.
This has nothing to do with Afrika Korps.

Seems to vary alot more to me, but might be imagined I suppose.

Terje

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RE: Help badly needed with AK... - 8/13/2012 6:19:52 PM

VPaulus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439

quote:

ORIGINAL: VPaulus

quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439
The thing is, I have no difficulty with this in the other PC games, but here it is all over the place. I am not saying that results should not vary from the stated, but it should be in the ballpark (+/-2 any way imo), but not like this...

I think this wasn't even "touched" in patch 1.10. It's the same as it was in Panzer Corps 1.05.
This has nothing to do with Afrika Korps.

Seems to vary alot more to me, but might be imagined I suppose.

Or bad luck.

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RE: Help badly needed with AK... - 8/13/2012 7:26:49 PM

terje439

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THINK I see what I "am seeing/imagining".
The problem is that there are alot fewer units available here, so killing off an enemy unit becomes much more important (atleast the way I play), and when you have a gazillion Italians, who are made up of paper and armed with kittens (at best!!), the failures stand out alot more.

Restarted the game, and am getting somewhat better results, although artillery seems to be shooting the shells made at Schindler's factory at the end of Schindler's list...

My force still feel anemic though, and alot of the issues are from the RAF. Never thought the Hurricane I to be that superior to the 109E

And are anyone else getting their Stukas to "work" aka perform to a degree where they are worthwhile? In vanilla PC and the eastern DLCs the 87Ds worked wonders for me, not so here imo.

Btw, to those ignoring TDs...You really should not

The StuGIIIF is a nice thing to have.
So, my main issues NOW is Stukas and arty

Terje

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RE: Help badly needed with AK... - 8/13/2012 7:36:06 PM

VPaulus

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I'm using BF 110 instead of Stukas. I'm not alone on that choice.
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=121&t=36478

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RE: Help badly needed with AK... - 8/18/2012 9:16:48 AM

terje439

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Ok, so getting to terms with AK, I guess I should update this thread.

Note this is how I see things.

There are a few things I do like;
A. New units is always nice
B. The battles feels more fluid, and you have to readjust your goals along the way
C. Minefields makes the engineers vastly more useful than before

There are however some things I am not too fond of;
1. Your units starts out without experience, yet you are facing 12-14 strength units. Maybe allow the player to start with the "normal" start of the war and progress to Afrika?
2. The RAF seems extremely though. Thought there were times where the AK had aerial supremacy in Africa?
3. The "Hello, I just appeared out of thin air"-units. Espesially when aerial units do this it can wreck havoc on your units. Maybe add some sort of hex ownership, forcing spawning enemy units to only appear in hexes under "their" control?
4. The more or less uselessness of the Stukas due to 2 and 3.
5. The Italians are (atleast to my playstyle) utterly useless.

All in all;
-Is the game worth buying? Yes, but expect some extremely frustrating moments when it feels like you are not taking on the 8th army, but rather the combined forces of the entire Western Allies...
-How would I rate it? 4/5. Espesially the #3 dislike is a major issue for me.

Terje

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RE: Help badly needed with AK... - 8/19/2012 12:53:33 PM

PzB

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In my 3rd attempt for the campaign on "General" and is finally doing well.
- I don't restart battles or reload during scenarios so it's all vital to not mess up

All bombers need escorts, I sometimes use a none-core unit as "bait" to draw in oversize AI fighter units.
Italian units can be good; the core Italian fighter you start with becomes as good as an 109 when it is upgraded and receive a few heroes.
Italian bombers are also quite ok, so are their SPGs.

- Have you noticed how cheap it is to upgrade units within their 'family trees'? A PzIIIG can upgrade to a IIIJ version for a low cost, same with Me109F -> G. Upgrade to a new model, e.g. PzIV or FW190 and you have to pay new unit cost.

This can make for difficult decisions; upgrade the 2 star infantry to pioneers for 193 prestige..or buy a new pioneer unit for 193?

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RE: Help badly needed with AK... - 8/20/2012 8:49:41 AM

terje439

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PzB
1. Have you noticed how cheap it is to upgrade units within their 'family trees'? A PzIIIG can upgrade to a IIIJ version for a low cost, same with Me109F -> G. Upgrade to a new model, e.g. PzIV or FW190 and you have to pay new unit cost.

2. This can make for difficult decisions; upgrade the 2 star infantry to pioneers for 193 prestige..or buy a new pioneer unit for 193?

1. Yup, been doing that since PC "vanilla". Keep two lines of tanks, one PzIII line that upgrades to Panthers down the line, and one PzIV line that upgrades to Tigers when they are available.
Ofc the upgrade from Bf109 to FW190 is so worth it anyway, so that is (atleast to me) a no brainer.

2. I do not use regular inf, only pioneers.

Terje

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