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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton)

 
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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/7/2013 10:40:40 PM   
Michael T


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Gorforlin, there is a big difference between calling someone a cheat and saying they are looking for a way out of a game due to a technical issue, either a bug or induced. For the first part, a legit bug, Pelton had been posting about bugs and how they were wrecking his chances for some time prior to my remark. Also you are not privy to all the things that have been said or actaully happened prior to that statement. And in the end the game has ended due to a technical issue. And not one created by my PC. That was at least proved. Also I have never once received emails from Slitherine about reloads. Pelton has received at least 2 such emails.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/7/2013 10:46:37 PM   
Michael T


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You are possibley right about a good German getting a draw out of such a strategy. The VC need some revision or players need to use house rules to avoid this type of game. If thats what they want. Some might prefer it. Not my thing though.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/7/2013 10:52:38 PM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
But for your and others benefit, and it is an AAR after all I will elaborate on why I choose to send many hundreds of thousand of electronic hordes to their death.

I knew I would not be able to do much to Pelton prior to Jan 43. But it galled me to think I would just have to sit around and watch his OOB and Arm pool grow and grow. I did some calculations and figured if I just sat around I would be facing a German OOB of around 4.0 million with at least 300K to 400K of Arm in his pools. I did some tests and found that a series of wave attacks run over the course of multiple battles would result in him loosing around 20K of Germans and 25K of Arm. At a cost of 50K to 60K of Soviets and 40K of Arm each turn in clear weather.

I decided to implement this strategy of extreme attrition for the following reasons.

I wanted to hit Jan 1943 with his OOB at around 3.5 to 3.6 million. I wanted his Arm pools to be as close to zero as possible. What was the cost? Well in manpower it made no difference to my situation at all. I have around 2.5 million men sitting in the pool. I could afford the loss in manpower. Armaments was a different matter. Yes I lost a lot of Arm. But I still preferred to see his pool at zero even if my pool was 500K less as well.

My real limit was AP. I knew I could slowly over the second part of 1942 build enough INF Corp to keep hitting him and slowly shift from suicide attacks to more sensible attacks that would have much higher chances of success for less loss of Arm by using Inf Corp. But they cost 20 AP each so it was a false economy to build too many in 1942. I wanted to hit Jan 1943 with 500 AP so I could suddenly put 40 plus Inf Corp on the map in one go and hit 1943 running. As an aside this is why I predicted he would concede in early 1943 because I thought any rational person would see that there was no way they could survive such a steam roller so close to the Fatherland.

Did I achieve my goals? Yes. His OOB came in to 1943 at 3.59 million. Looking at his AAR I see his Arm pool was zero. On Jan 1943 I put exactly 42 Inf Corp on the map.

Bottom line is my limit was AP not Arm or Men, as long as I did not waste too much Arm.


That's indeed one of my gripes with WitE: this kind of active defense / attritional warfare is hardly feasible and in my opinion was one of the features of the struggle in the Eastern Front. It's completely and totally anti-economical to do so, except in some very special conditions. I have high hopes that Wite 2 changes bring about tweaks to combat losses, retreats and novel ways to harm your opponent units through combat beyond the mere loss of equipment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
The bombing campaign was another high loss area. But it cost me nothing in reality. I have 1000's of Bombers in pools. By bombing him every turn over the course of 1942 I added another 40K of permanent losses to his Germans. Plus another 30K of Arm losses.


That's one of the greatest and most overlooked Soviet assets. It just takes a lot of work to use it.



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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/8/2013 1:09:17 AM   
Ketza


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If you had him on the ropes why not continue playing?

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/8/2013 2:25:35 AM   
Michael T


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I have considered playing on.

Lets examine the problems.

1. Having 100 Air units sent to reserve on a periodic basis I could live with.

2. Having all my SU attached to Corp returned to the parent HQ is more serious. Its tough to crack lvl 3 forts without tons of sappers directly attached to Corp. But on its own I would be prepared to try.

3. But having nearly half my HQ's sent to the rear is a killer. It means my units suffer large supply and movement penalties. And a host of other penalties for combat when I move them back. This one hurts the most.

4. I have lost a Front HQ and 2 Air HQ's disbanded. I can handle that but what if I keep losing HQ's?

So problem 2 and 3 combined would probably give him the draw. Problem 4 is unknown. It could entirely cripple me if it kept disbanding HQ's.

I guess as long as the game sits on the server that there is some chance it could be resumed if some others eventually were to strike the same problem and it is resolved. But that is so unlikely to occur that it must be discounted. Believe me I would love to finish the game. But the corruption or bug gives me no chance to win the game. It would be like fighting with one hand tied behind my back. And I give Pelton enough credit to hold off a one armed MT.


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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/8/2013 7:20:17 AM   
Michael T


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I have thought some more about just playing on.

I have made Pelton an offer to play on even with the problems I have encountered.

The ball is in his court. If he decides he dosen't want to continue I understand.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/8/2013 11:04:23 AM   
Flaviusx


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MT...let it go, man. You won't be playing against him so much as the vagaries of the corrupted AI. It won't be fun at all.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/8/2013 3:29:40 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

I have thought some more about just playing on.
I have made Pelton an offer to play on even with the problems I have encountered.
The ball is in his court. If he decides he dosen't want to continue I understand.


I think everyone knows where this game was headed. I'm much more interested in seeing Pelton applying what he has learned about defense to the Russian side and seeing you wield the Grrrmans.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/8/2013 7:55:24 PM   
M60A3TTS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

MT...let it go, man. You won't be playing against him so much as the vagaries of the corrupted AI. It won't be fun at all.


I tend to agree. With corruption like that this game can only get worse, and not better. Ten turns from now, corps could start vanishing for all we know.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/8/2013 7:59:41 PM   
Michael T


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Yes yes you guys are right. After sleeping on it I agree. Pelton was willing to give it a trial. But it might get worse and even more time wasted. Its just so hard to let go after so much time and effort and things were just starting to get rolling. Summer 43 was going to be a blast.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/8/2013 9:39:37 PM   
STEF78


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Not sure to have understood what you will do (I'm not native english speaking). Do you stop the game?

Even if the defeat of Pelton is 99% certain (the 1% is given if you let your baby playing the game instead of you), It would have been nice showing that retreating to Poland in 1941 isn't a good strategy. Even if you are a very skilled player like Pelton.

If you decide to continue, I will be pleased looking at your AAR. I've learned a lot from it
- your initial defence was trully impressive
- your way of attacking a deep level 3 forts learnt me a lot

Thanks

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/8/2013 10:12:36 PM   
Marquo


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I agree with Flav; something unique to this game corrupted the programme - whether by chance or design, matters little; it has sucked up enough of your life and this will not refunded. Anyone with even a modicum of WITE intelligence knows that MT outplayed Pelton, and now knows that the "retreat to Poland" gambit in 1941 is not viable. Game, set, match.

Life is a well of joy,
Where the rabble drinks from the well, the water is poisoned.

Marquo

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Post #: 642
RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/8/2013 10:15:12 PM   
turtlefang

 

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Has Pelton reinstalled his game?

I would think both of you need to erase and reinstall the game just in case its a corrupted file some where.

Don't know if its possible on a server game, but can you save the files just for game data and not the game operating system? Then pick it up after complete re-installs by both of you?

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Post #: 643
RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/8/2013 10:51:44 PM   
Michael T


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Stef78 the game ended because of bug/corruption see here

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3254415&mpage=4

I think the problem must be in the save file itself because JB never suggested a reinstall. But I will be doing a reinstall anyhow.



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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/8/2013 11:12:14 PM   
STEF78


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So, it's clear, you won this game, and in my opinion, you won it during the summer of 1941.

Congratulations.

Good luck against Glvaca.

And did you even lose a game , either as SHC or GHC?


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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/9/2013 1:03:23 AM   
turtlefang

 

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I suspect your right regarding the save file but given everything that people have done, I just don't see anything else to try but a reinstall on both ends of the game.

It would be a long shot but the only one I know to suggest at this point.

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Post #: 646
RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/9/2013 1:15:25 AM   
Michael T


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No it's done now. Pelton is happy to let it go. I will leave it on the server just incase a remedy comes up at a later date.

As a footnote Pelton now says he was having some weird stuff happen as well. But did not make it public or report to JB.

I know I had the game won. But its nice to have your opponent acknowledge that. Not happpening so time to move on.

I have an opening now for another game. I have PM one possible opponent. If he declines I will looking for a new one.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/9/2013 1:28:43 PM   
rrbill

 

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Thanks for the post-game analysis-outstanding. Appreciate your acknowledgement of a personal goal to win in '44 and an approach to do just that.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/10/2013 7:45:55 PM   
Banori

 

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Thanks for an interesting game. Every day / week i look for the news. or what had happened.
in my opinion you have won the game. He couldn´t change the results.
Thanks a lot for that again

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/10/2013 8:12:42 PM   
M60A3TTS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
I have an opening now for another game. I have PM one possible opponent. If he declines I will looking for a new one.


If it doesn't work out, let me know. I may be ready to jump into another one.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/10/2013 9:02:17 PM   
Michael T


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@M60 Noted. Will PM you when I hear back from another player who I have approached beforehand.

Meanwhile the final postscript to this game.

A kind individual who does scenario work for 2by3 offered to rebuild the game using the current game state. I was very happy to go down that path but Pelton has declined.




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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/11/2013 9:36:11 AM   
AFV


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If they can fix it, and he declines, that's a loss for Pelton then. I mean, officially because we all know it was already lost for him.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/11/2013 10:03:22 AM   
Balou


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quote:

...but Pelton has declined.


Did Pelton told you why ?

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/11/2013 10:35:57 AM   
Michael T


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He says the 'ammo bug' has warped the game and he would only agree to go right back to June 42 (which is impossible anyhow) or start from scratch. Clearly I have no desire to start again from T1.
It matters not as I know I won and so does everyone else no matter what his scorecard says.



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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/11/2013 11:04:01 AM   
Balou


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This is very intriguing.
1. No one, no dev etc. has ever been able to recreate the weird results.
2. I have never seen a "smart" bug like this one (smart because it hit where it really hurts).
3. The other guy is happy to let it go.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/11/2013 11:45:52 AM   
Red Lancer


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quote:

A kind individual who does scenario work for 2by3 offered to rebuild the game using the current game state.


I feel I ought to add some clarification to this statement to avoid any misunderstanding.

- I offered, when I had time, to create a scenario from scratch using the current in game positions as the basis for the setup. This is not quite the same as rebuilding the game. The offer was made on the proviso that I could successfully access each of the players save turns which had not been established. I know of no way to turn a sav file into a scn one.
- Although I am involved in the new scenario disk as stated here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3248636 I don't have a contract with 2by3 and my offer was a purely personal suggestion.
- I also placed some stipulations on the level of detail I was willing to recreate as there is a law of diminishing return between fidelity and the effort required to achieve it. For example an overall unit TOE % and Exp can be set in the editor in half a dozen clicks (and can be done as a bulk operation for groups of units if need be) whereas accurately allocating precise numbers to the individual elements that make up a unit's TOE must be done one step at a time and is not only tedious but hugely time consuming.
- I should also highlight that I don't believe that setting the balance between what I was willing to do and achieving bi-partisan agreement between the players would have been easy. Morale, experience and TOE levels are immotive subjects - especially if you have husbanded some units carefully and a scenario designer suggests for simplicity that a blanket TOE and Morale level for all units is a great idea.
- I have no axe to grind towards either player - it just seemed to me to be a disappointing end to a great matchup - that's why the scenario would have been namedwith a fair degree of accuracy 'Clash of the Titans'.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/11/2013 11:58:51 AM   
AFV


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Ok, I see. I can understand Pelton's response now.
That is a very generous offer, nonetheless.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 3/6/2013 9:01:57 PM   
Michael T


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An interesting development.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3254415&mpage=4&key=�

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Post #: 658
RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 3/13/2013 10:09:36 PM   
Michael T


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With the processes now in place at Slitherine (saving all of Bobo's and Pelton's moves) there is a very good chance this bug/problem will get fixed. However it would seem even if the bug is fixed Pelton will be reluctant to resume this game (doh, I wonder why?). If he refuses to continue thats it for me, I will be claiming he lost thru forfiture.

Hopefully he will be man enough to play on but one never knows what he will do.

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Post #: 659
RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 8/14/2013 2:59:02 AM   
Michael T


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It seems Pelton is willing to play this out. Is that true Pelton?

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3381109&mpage=3&key=

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