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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton)

 
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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 1/31/2013 3:55:34 AM   
Ketza


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I have seen the power of the Soviet army in the summer of 43 against Axis play that did not bag a lot of manpower and its quite the unstoppable force. I have several Guards infantry corps with attachments sporting CVs of well over 20.

Finland, Rumanis, Hungary all down and Soviet units in Poland by the winter of 43. Axis units get ground into dust.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 1/31/2013 10:09:26 AM   
Michael T


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I can't see any manpower problems for the Soviets in this game. Well over 2 million in the pool and rising.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/2/2013 10:03:54 PM   
Michael T


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T90 update. The first snow turn of 1943 saw great success for the Red Army. Kiev and Riga have been liberated from the invader. 2 German Divisions isolated just west of Riga. It pains me to think what may have been had it not been for this bug/corruption thing. An extra 20-25 Corps on the map for the snow offensive…




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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/3/2013 1:52:31 PM   
Balou


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I suggest the Propaganda Ministery sends its brand new trucks to all Fronts and let all Comrades celebrate the liberation of Kiew ! Nastrovje !




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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/3/2013 8:02:47 PM   
Karri

 

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Seems to be running out of forts.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/3/2013 9:18:57 PM   
Michael T


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Yes, I am sometimes able to penetrate to the L1 or L0 forts but due to the bug I am lacking the Mech units that could be zapping the weak rear line. This turn in another part of the front I had reached a HQ, an AB (full of aircraft) with a lone shot up XX. Another Mech unit or two would have seen this hex trashed. But the bug, having cost me several hundred AP means my Mech Corp are way less than I had planned for the 4 snow turns. Anyway IF the bug get squashed or it goes away with this latest beta Pelton has kindly agreed to allow Pavel to refund my lost AP if it is at all possible. But that doesn't help me now.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/5/2013 5:12:36 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Yes, I am sometimes able to penetrate to the L1 or L0 forts but due to the bug I am lacking the Mech units that could be zapping the weak rear line. This turn in another part of the front I had reached a HQ, an AB (full of aircraft) with a lone shot up XX. Another Mech unit or two would have seen this hex trashed. But the bug, having cost me several hundred AP means my Mech Corp are way less than I had planned for the 4 snow turns. Anyway IF the bug get squashed or it goes away with this latest beta Pelton has kindly agreed to allow Pavel to refund my lost AP if it is at all possible. But that doesn't help me now.


Catching up with the AAR, Michael.

What a shame this AP thing: looks to me like some bad OOB data corruption is going on. In any case, Nastrovje! Great game to watch, and I hope it becomes more fun to play as you get ahead of the boredom curve entailed by Pelton's strategies.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/5/2013 5:18:47 AM   
Michael T


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lol boredom long since passed, but fleeting glee replaced with despair over bug.

I am so hoping that the bug goes away with 1.06.27

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/5/2013 10:15:42 AM   
juret

 

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MT- u got any mech units? or rocket divs ?

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/5/2013 12:32:02 PM   
Michael T


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I have 4 mech Corp, I should have triple that. No Rct XX, none planned either. I prefer Art XX.

Meanwhile, sadly the bug has hit again. Around half my HQ's have been sent to the rear. Joel and crew are investigating it.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/6/2013 1:08:55 AM   
Michael T


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Sadly it appears this game is over. The bug/corruption issue cannot be resolved. Unless Pavel comes up with an 11th hour solution. But that is unlikely and it would be selfish of me to continue to take up their time about an issue that is only occurring in this game. The problem to date has not been replicated. Yet it is clearly visible in the saves Joel has collected. He will be posting his thoughts on the matter in the next day or so after Pavel has a final look.

Considering the state of the game I had hoped Pelton might have just conceded but he refuses to do that. The best I could get out of him was 25% chance of a draw and 75% chance of Soviet victory. For me I have no doubt how it would have ended. Nothing has changed my view of the situation.

However, as much as I wanted to finish this game, it remains the worst gaming experience I have ever had in almost 35 years of wargaming. Pelton's attitude during the course of the game has had me vexed to say the least. I will leave it at that.

There will be no return game.

This mini rant is in no way a poor reflection on WITE or 2by3. Joel has been very supportive and keen to resolve the issue. I still enjoy the game immensely and will continue to play it. I have played around 20 games of WITE to date and have never had any issue like this before.

I have nothing more to say on the matter.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/6/2013 2:09:12 AM   
Fishbed


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Great job MT. For me, you won beautifully.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/6/2013 2:51:11 AM   
Flaviusx


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You had this thing in the bag, MT, it was just a matter of time. Very sorry about this snafu prematurely ending the game. But they are game killing problems and you really had no choice.

I think the game got corrupted somehow, myself.



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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/6/2013 8:56:29 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
The best I could get out of him was 25% chance of a draw and 75% chance of Soviet victory. For me I have no doubt how it would have ended. Nothing has changed my view of the situation.


If ones just reviews the past couple of turns, and propagates that pace, the result is really merely a matter of time. Only unusually unhappy dice rolls could have saved Axis in this case, and not just a few of them. The pace would even have picked up since you continuously sharpened your blade, and Axis possibles only deteriorate. For Axis against a strong Red Army, the phase past spring/summer 43 is not really about "actively winning". More about delaying the Soviets long enough to deny a victory or draw, and that requires ground to trade.

Too bad about the bug, indeed. But the conclusion is pretty evident even without. Extensive Sir Robins just concede the game to your opponent, not matter which side. Are you guys planning to play a rematch? Sounds like that is out of question?

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/6/2013 9:30:50 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

There will be no return game.


That's a damn shame. I wanted to see if the Soviets are as easy to play as Pelton says, and I think a return game would have been a nice challenge to that premise.

I wonder if your ability to have so many on and off map units has in some way contributed to the bug/corruption. It's almost as if at a certain threshold something is being overwhelmed and reset.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/6/2013 10:41:09 AM   
Flaviusx


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BTW, strongly recommend that you do a complete reinstall now that you are between games. Maybe set aside some of those saved games elsewhere to transfer over, but otherwise a fresh start here is best.



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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/6/2013 11:56:07 AM   
Michael T


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quote:

BTW, strongly recommend that you do a complete reinstall now that you are between games. Maybe set aside some of those saved games elsewhere to transfer over, but otherwise a fresh start here is best.


Good idea.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/6/2013 4:05:45 PM   
timmyab

 

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You're best off out of this game, life's too short.It was all over before the end of summer 1941.Technically I suppose it's a draw due to Pelton not quitting, which just goes to show that there's more than one way to skin a cat.With sensible campaign victory conditions this could never happen.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
I wonder if your ability to have so many on and off map units has in some way contributed to the bug/corruption.It's almost as if at a certain threshold something is being overwhelmed and reset.

Yes I wondered about that as well.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/6/2013 4:54:10 PM   
Fishbed


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I sincerely hope that it's the only plausible explanation. After all, it's a pity to see that of all games, the only problems happen with the very one Pelton is losing.
If there's someone who should absolutely re-install the game, it's him. Maybe that will prevent his game for periodically corrupting the file it is trying to process - and be the only one at that in the whole history of WitE it seems.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/7/2013 3:57:32 AM   
AFV


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Couple of comments-
1) I guess Pelton will add "Draw" to his signature- but this would have been a Soviet Major victory (easily)
2) I get a sense the issues were caused by the upgrade in version during this game. Maybe that should be avoided if possible.
3) Pelton is still one of the best Axis players around- but MT you are apparently one of the best Soviet players around and you bested him in '41- and that was match point right there.

Too bad there will be no return game.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/7/2013 4:33:05 AM   
Michael T


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There is only one way that there would be a return game. And that is Pelton openly concedes this game to me. It is obviously apparent that it would end in a Soviet victory and if there were some better VC it would have ended in a Soviet victory long ago.

People please understand that I have endured his whining about bad luck, non existent bugs, game balance and accusations of exploits from almost turn one and not the least his strategy of retreat to Poland in 1941. Not to mention having to try and demonstrate to him every few turns that the game is not bugged and is WAD because he has fouled up some setting and has shot himself in the foot. To top it all off I finally get in to a position where the game had became enjoyable (after enduring 50 or so turns of boredom) and then it is crashed by some unexplained corruption occurring at his end.

But having said all that if he had one iota of honour and respect for his opponent and concede an obvious result I would stand by my original offer of a return game. But why would he do that when the most likely outcome would be another loss on his scorecard? Nope won't happen.

No there won't be a return game I am sorry. I want to enjoy the game time I have. Not enlist for another tour of 'Pelton Mania'.

End rant.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/7/2013 6:44:32 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AFV
2) I get a sense the issues were caused by the upgrade in version during this game. Maybe that should be avoided if possible.


That's a likely possibility.

And MT, you can rant all you want. You're fully entitled to do so I salute you for giving us a chance to peek into this test of wits (and wills)

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/7/2013 7:55:40 AM   
Michael T


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I just read his so called AAR, what a pile of rubbish. And the accusation of cheating I find particually offensive.

I find his justification for running laughable. My goodness my lines at the end of the summer 41 campaign were much better than historical. Cripes he never even got to Vyazama. No isolation of Leningrad and not much past Stalino.

There was some talk about my suicidal attacks. In a normal game ofcourse such actions would be silly. But before the ammo patch came out they were doing what I wanted. That is keep his OOB below 4 million. And I could afford the losses. Once the patch came out those attacks were no longer feasible. But by then I had enough INF corp to do the job. Man the guy was getting thrashed by November 1942 but yet he was crowing about his position. Unbeleivable.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/7/2013 9:06:33 AM   
randallw

 

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Well, he tends to post up so many of his current campaigns that if he remains consistent in strategy it will hurt him ( and did ) with opponents able to pre-plan against him.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/7/2013 9:33:36 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T
There is only one way that there would be a return game. And that is Pelton openly concedes this game to me. It is obviously apparent that it would end in a Soviet victory and if there were some better VC it would have ended in a Soviet victory long ago.

...

But having said all that if he had one iota of honour and respect for his opponent and concede an obvious result I would stand by my original offer of a return game.


Only my opinion, but Pelton would act gentlemen-like if he conceded this game. There is so little doubt about the ending that logically there is nothing else to do. Not conceding would seems childish, imho. It doesn't matter what number of victories or whatever one racks up, it's a fairly meaningless number. The two of you have exposed bugs and design short-comings by pushing the game to limiting cases that were not considered. Thus you helped to improve it and hopefully avoid or appropriately penalize these limiting cases in future WitE2. That's way more important.

This match, no matter how you turn it, was unusual in many aspects and certainly should be taken with a grain of salt. I'd be all for a rematch, but one that is "more normal". I'd still like to see where the balance of the game is, still suspect that the Russian side is significantly curtailed and the Wehrmacht potential too strong, relatively speaking. If Pelton had just played the game in standard fashion as he had done so many AARs before, not getting obsessed with this right hook... Or if he at least like Terje had held onto the Russian manpower centers during blizzard, he could have had a sizable chance turn the game around as well...

< Message edited by janh -- 2/7/2013 9:37:14 AM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/7/2013 10:01:18 AM   
Michael T


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Well I am hopeful of getting a 'normal' game from glvaca. He is an accomplished Axis player and is putting some degree of pressure on my defences.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/7/2013 12:43:53 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I just read his so called AAR, what a pile of rubbish. And the accusation of cheating I find particually offensive.

I find his justification for running laughable. My goodness my lines at the end of the summer 41 campaign were much better than historical. Cripes he never even got to Vyazama. No isolation of Leningrad and not much past Stalino.

There was some talk about my suicidal attacks. In a normal game ofcourse such actions would be silly. But before the ammo patch came out they were doing what I wanted. That is keep his OOB below 4 million. And I could afford the losses. Once the patch came out those attacks were no longer feasible. But by then I had enough INF corp to do the job. Man the guy was getting thrashed by November 1942 but yet he was crowing about his position. Unbeleivable.


I still don't quite agree with the attrition strategy you chose and think you could have gotten similar results by knocking out Finland. It also prevented you from concentrating the Red Army in the south as much as you could have. The real hurt didn't start until winter of 42-3 with the rivers freezing over and the Red Army 2.0 finally shifting into high gear. Knocking out the Dnepr line took longer than it should have and you didn't make as much headway towards Romania as you could have otherwise. Romania really is the key here.

But in the end, this is just nitpicking. Your situation was so favorable that it allowed for more than one way to skin the cat.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/7/2013 7:41:06 PM   
Joel Billings


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I've posted my comments about this game here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3254415&mpage=4

I'm sorry we weren't able to save it.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/7/2013 10:07:40 PM   
Gorforlin

 

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After reading both MT’s and Pelton’s AAR’s its clear that both play the propaganda game a little


MT wins the hypocrite of 2012 award for these comments.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I just read his so called AAR, what a pile of rubbish. And the accusation of cheating I find particually offensive.




MT finds it "particually offensive" when in fact he said the same about Pelton on this very thread:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I have to be honest people. I have suspected for some time that Pelton is looking for a way out of this on a technical issue. Possibly even one he has created himself.



Before pointing fingers at others take a good look in the mirror MT Your no saint.

If it was not for you exploiting the supply/ammo bugs you would still be at the March 42 lines.

If one takes an open minded look at the game ( and dont let MT's and Pelton's propaganda mess up our minds ) its clear that once the ammo bug was removed Pelton's running like a girl before blizzard stratagy would work under the current rule set. MT would not have been able to conduct any offensive operations from March 42 through some point in the summer of 1943 by his own admission. Which means Pelton would have had 100,000’s of more arm pts and another 150k-200k more men.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

There was some talk about my suicidal attacks. In a normal game ofcourse such actions would be silly. But before the ammo patch came out they were doing what I wanted.



Pelton by his own admission should have stopped at the river line.
In a future game if a GHC player decides to use Pelton strategy of (Morale is King or whatever he called it) it’s more than likely to get a draw.
MT is one of the best if not the best SHC player and if he can only move the lines because of a bug in the logistics system (which has been removed) I very much believe that getting a draw would not be very hard vs. most anyone else. Crap even vs the best a 50/50 deal.

I picked up allot reading both sides. Both guys are very good players and both lov calling the kettle black.

Its fun reading and you learn allot





< Message edited by Gorforlin -- 2/7/2013 10:12:54 PM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 2/7/2013 10:33:48 PM   
Michael T


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Well part of the fun of these games is that we don't all do things the same way. And for sure the game was well and truly won in 1941, partly to my defence and partly to Pelton's voluntary Poland retreat strategy.

But for your and others benefit, and it is an AAR after all I will elaborate on why I choose to send many hundreds of thousand of electronic hordes to their death.

I knew I would not be able to do much to Pelton prior to Jan 43. But it galled me to think I would just have to sit around and watch his OOB and Arm pool grow and grow. I did some calculations and figured if I just sat around I would be facing a German OOB of around 4.0 million with at least 300K to 400K of Arm in his pools. I did some tests and found that a series of wave attacks run over the course of multiple battles would result in him loosing around 20K of Germans and 25K of Arm. At a cost of 50K to 60K of Soviets and 40K of Arm each turn in clear weather.

I decided to implement this strategy of extreme attrition for the following reasons.

I wanted to hit Jan 1943 with his OOB at around 3.5 to 3.6 million. I wanted his Arm pools to be as close to zero as possible. What was the cost? Well in manpower it made no difference to my situation at all. I have around 2.5 million men sitting in the pool. I could afford the loss in manpower. Armaments was a different matter. Yes I lost a lot of Arm. But I still preferred to see his pool at zero even if my pool was 500K less as well.

My real limit was AP. I knew I could slowly over the second part of 1942 build enough INF Corp to keep hitting him and slowly shift from suicide attacks to more sensible attacks that would have much higher chances of success for less loss of Arm by using Inf Corp. But they cost 20 AP each so it was a false economy to build too many in 1942. I wanted to hit Jan 1943 with 500 AP so I could suddenly put 40 plus Inf Corp on the map in one go and hit 1943 running. As an aside this is why I predicted he would concede in early 1943 because I thought any rational person would see that there was no way they could survive such a steam roller so close to the Fatherland.

Did I achieve my goals? Yes. His OOB came in to 1943 at 3.59 million. Looking at his AAR I see his Arm pool was zero. On Jan 1943 I put exactly 42 Inf Corp on the map.

Bottom line is my limit was AP not Arm or Men, as long as I did not waste too much Arm.

What of territory? Well there was no way I was ever going to gain much ground in 1942 yet somehow to my delight I was able to expand my bridgehead across the Daugava between Riga and Vilnus. Really Pelton should have crushed this bridgehead. He could have but he just could not stomach a stand up fight for it. Once I got my Inf Corp in there it ever so slowly increased. This was the one area I knew he had to defend with his best troops. It was on the direct line to Berlin.

As for the Dnieper line in the south I planned to make it irrelevant by the end of winter 42/43. And again I met that objective. With 3 full turns of snow left I had all but cleared it. He only holds an untenable line of around 6 hexes just to the north of Cherassky and 2 hexes to the south of it. And that part of the line is beginning to look like a Kursk type salient. He would have been forced to withdraw before the mud it.

If I had not attacked in summer 1942 he would have had an OOB of 4 million plus, 300K of Arm in the pool and would still be holding the Daugava line in the north. My lines in the south would be almost identical. As opposed to this he now has an OOB of 3.6 million and zero Arm and I am 10 hexes closer to Berlin. My army is no weaker as my limit is AP not Arm or Manpower.

What of morale? Well yes my many failed attacks did push his morale up and mine down. But I had so many troops I could rotate in and out of the line. I would reckon 80% of my guys are 50 plus morale. As for his morale it makes little difference. It is capped for most of his army at around 70 and after a few batterings from my Inf Corp it would soon be heading south. It was an acceptable side affect.

Guards? I had stacks by Feb 1943. Around 30 INF Corp. Plus Tk, Mech, Art XX and Sapper III Gds. I must have had at least 70 or 80 Guard Sapper III.

The bombing campaign was another high loss area. But it cost me nothing in reality. I have 1000's of Bombers in pools. By bombing him every turn over the course of 1942 I added another 40K of permanent losses to his Germans. Plus another 30K of Arm losses.

As for Finland I could not see how killing Finns in lieu of killing Germans was going to help my cause. In the end my border with Finland was held by the grand total of 8 brigades and 3 or 4 Cav XX. Nothing at all. I was also creating plenty of guards with my final victorious assaults with INF Corp against the Germans. I fail to see what benift I would have gotten from taking them out. There was also the risk that after deploying the neccesary INF Corp to do the job he would have simply given the place up to avoid my gaining the victories to get guard status. No I am happy with my decision.

@Flavius, yes I am an offensive minded player by nature and for better or worse there was just no way I was just going to sit on my hands in 1942 once Pelton went turtle. That’s just me. Can't change that.

What would I have done differently?

Not run quite so far in the south in 1941.
Advanced a little further with my MLR in the north prior to the Blizzard ending.
Built more Army HQ's in 1941 rather than spend the AP on the VVS.

As much as the game had not been fun for the most part, it was very much a more interesting and fun situation for me from about November 1942 on. Although I go away from the game without a deserved and acknowledged result from my opponent I can say I am a much more knowledgeable Soviet player than previously. I can take many lessons from this to my game with Glenn. In the end I have to admit I would rather have had this experience than not. But I would not repeat it. From now on I will be incorporating some house rules, most likely some Auto VC, to avoid this kind of scenario in any new future games. My game with Glenn has no such rules but he has undertaken not to do what Pelton did.

Finally I am very disappointed that I was not able to march triumphantly in to Berlin at some stage in 1944. It was my much anticipated aim to do so. And after all the trials and tribulations endured it would have been a highlight of my WITE career. But unfortunately, for reasons unknown it was not to be.

My many thanks to Joel and Co for their efforts and time in trying to nail the problem that stopped the game. As Joel said, I hope it never happens again.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to Gorforlin)
Post #: 630
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