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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton)

 
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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/7/2012 9:34:37 PM   
hfarrish


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Would be good to get a sense again (when you feel comfortable) of what the overall strategic situation looks like and where you are focusing your efforts - granted if the front is moving by inches then I guess we wouldn't need to see it very often. Feels a bit abstract at the moment, but then again I don't have to do the work...

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/7/2012 11:15:00 PM   
Michael T


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I have a map ready to go, just waiting for the game to progress a bit more. But you won't see any changes in the lines apart from the odd hex here and there.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/7/2012 11:28:25 PM   
mevstedt

 

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An OOB would be nice and shouldn't be of any real use to Pelton.

Also, maybe some pool numbers (averages or from a few turns back or so) unless you feel too uncomfortable with that considering Pelton is quite good at guesstimating growth per turn.


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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/8/2012 5:04:48 AM   
Michael T


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OK I am finished my attacks for the current turn and I have had pleasing results. I cannot say what I am doing differently as I don't want a counter formulated thru leakage, they can figure it out for themselves. But I have toned down my level of suicide to what I beleive will still bleed the hun and allow me to accumulate men and ARM.

Total assault losses for my attacks were 22K Axis (~20K German) to 54K Soviet. I am pretty sure I can maintain losing around 50K a turn and still build a reserve. And I am getting more Corp in to the line every turn. Things can only get better barring a sudden counter attack from Pelton, but I am being as careful as I can. Maps and data in a turn or two

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/8/2012 4:07:39 PM   
AFV


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54:24 ratio (2.25:1) seems quite favorable. If this was a "normal" game, with the German on the offensive, I think I would be quite pleased with that loss ratio.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/8/2012 7:26:01 PM   
Michael T


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Yes thats true, if it were a 'normal' 1942 then the Soviets would be very happy to only lose 50K of troops to German attacks. Pelton stopped attacking long ago.

< Message edited by Michael T -- 12/8/2012 8:53:23 PM >


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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/8/2012 10:30:07 PM   
randallw

 

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If this leakage problem continues, see your primary care physician.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/9/2012 2:42:48 AM   
Gunnulf

 

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Been following this with interest for a while. I must admit I really hope the Axis crumbles for the good of the game. It would be a real shame if 'invade deep into Russia, pack up and go home for winter then invade again in spring' became a valid strategy. Not much Germanic martial spirit there.
Does seem like as pointed out above the losses you are taking are high, but possibly nothing compared to what you would be losing getting routed and pocketed all over the steppes. And if the front line is still where it was last map update you must be drawing in much more manpower from the centre's he is foregoing by not being 500 miles east where he should be by now? Each hex you ultimately have to take between here and Berlin will cost, but you have less to take back. So I guess the only worry is the armaments situation as the one constraint you have is standard factories I guess. But as above you could be losing alot more under 'normal' circumstances.
Keep flying the banner mate.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/10/2012 11:44:52 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza
This game is one for the ages.


It's going to get right into my personal Hall of Fame, along with the Tarhunnas vs. Gids game

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/10/2012 9:30:04 PM   
Michael T


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Situation End Soviet T59 (30 July 1942) Clear. Delay 3 turns.

Not a great deal to add as its pretty much all been said above. Not a lot I can do other than chip away at the Axis OOB and Arm Pools, while building Red Army 2.0. My 'Stalin' attacks continue but this turn was the last where they were unlimited. My rule of thumb now is to limit my attack losses to around 50K, less if my target of German losses is met.

This is what Pelton doesn't get, I am not interested in win/loss ratio's, as in retreats V holds. My only concern is the loss ratio of permanent losses V permanent losses. This turn you will see my attacks cost me 73K and Pelton 27K. The ratio in the turns since have been better for me but he has lost fewer men, around 20K each time. T61 saw the ratio very close to 2:1

Pelton has become very passive. He rarely attacks. And even in some cases will not reoccupy hexes I have retreated him from, afraid of defending unfortified hexes I guess. I don't mind, this just gets me closer to Berlin.

Things are still going according to plan. His new reserve system caused a hiccup for a turn or 2 but we have adapted and it no longer has any real effect on what I do. Actually I don't mind as it costs him more ARM to replace his Mech losses.

I now just bomb his Mech units sitting in reserve to the max, obviously I concentrate on the units in the immediate vicinity of any planned attacks.

I will post some OOB shots of my big bangers soon. They are an impressive bunch of bullies.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/10/2012 9:46:29 PM   
hfarrish


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It's good that you dropped the unlimited approach, as casualties aside I would think the morale effects alone would be particularly galling...especially since you didn't really have time to build up morale in the blizzard. Seems to me that this is likely the biggest limitation on your ability to really strike hard, and other than waiting for the National Morale to increase I'm not sure how you address it other than keeping a core of Infantry Corps that you keep using for the final "victorious" push and slowly build to Guards status.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/10/2012 9:49:47 PM   
morvael


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Interesting. So much men and guns, but less AFVs and planes than in my game that is nearly at the same turn.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/10/2012 9:56:43 PM   
hfarrish


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I noticed the same thing - I am around the same point and know I had far more planes at this time, although AFVs less so.

MT - how have you generally been using your AF (to the extent you are really managing it at all)?

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/10/2012 9:57:53 PM   
Michael T


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Morale is no issue for me. When a unit gets to around 45 I send it, or sometimes an entire front if they are in the thick of it to the rear. 4 or 5 turns later they are back to 50 and then its back to the front line. I can do this as I have so many troops and counters. Nothing of mine ever gets wiped out. So no AP crunch.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/10/2012 10:07:36 PM   
morvael


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A quick survey shows me that 37% of my 7330 AFVs are in support units. 1.28 turns of AP investment seems to have greatly increased my capacity to field tanks (rather than let them rot in the pool).

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/10/2012 10:13:30 PM   
Michael T


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I put a lot of effort in to the VVS. Also probably more AP than most. I have no obsolete a/c in the VVS. Every turn I rotate units in and out of reserve. Once morale get to less than 45 its to the reserve. Out again when its 55 plus. Also any unit with less than 50% operational a/c go to the reserve. No airbase is overloaded. All air leaders at least 5. Every Tac and level bomber flies a ground bombing mission every turn. I kill around 1K (perm) of Germans every turn through bombing. I never bomb the allies.

I have lots of fighters in the reserve, plus lots of Il2's training up. No air unit goes to the front with less than 45% experience.

Pelton's Luftwaffe rarely makes any serious fight of it anymore. They must be sitting in reserve waiting for 1943 I guess.

On AFV, I have lots of tanks in the pools. I probably don't have as many TK Corp as others at this point but probably more INF Corp. I have 10 TK XXX and 25 INF Corp. Only 5 Cav XXX. The routine is that first the sacrificial XX's are thrown against the line. Then the Corps do the last attacks. Mostly they then win the hex, but not always. Regardless hun die.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/10/2012 10:18:57 PM   
morvael


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I use the same procedures (over 50 air groups in reserve/rear air bases on rotation duty), though I'm using my air groups only for ground support and that's why less planes gets shot down and hence higher number of ready planes.

Seems like I have more CavC (18, each with Tank Bn) and TankC (15), but I don't invest in the rifle corps for now (only 3). I need to defend in depth, not breakthrough, so I need more ZOC coverage than punching power.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/10/2012 10:32:58 PM   
hfarrish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Morale is no issue for me. When a unit gets to around 45 I send it, or sometimes an entire front if they are in the thick of it to the rear. 4 or 5 turns later they are back to 50 and then its back to the front line. I can do this as I have so many troops and counters. Nothing of mine ever gets wiped out. So no AP crunch.


...that does keep a good floor on things, and I do assume you are building a stable of higher morale victory corps (since even a 50 morale Red Army division is of pretty limited use on the offensive side of things).

What is your support unit strategy to attach to your corps? I tend to go Sapper Regt / Tank Regt with the Infantry but no idea what the ideal buildout is.

Seems like Cav Corps in this type of fighting (slow hex by hex) are less useful then they used to be perceived to be since they don't really have the MPs to really punch through a narrow gap and they don't have the combat power to really help move a fortified line.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/10/2012 10:46:28 PM   
Michael T


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Every Corp is loaded to the max with Sapper Reg. Even the Tank Corp. Come Sept I will have 3 Mech Corp coming on line. Cav Corp are fairly useless in this kind of trench warfare. I use them sometimes against worn down defenders just to get more CV in to the attack.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/10/2012 10:52:51 PM   
Flaviusx


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Once those rivers freeze over things will open up for you. Your army will be much better by then, too. By mid December that entire southern defense is going to be much more vulnerable.



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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/10/2012 11:48:53 PM   
M60A3TTS

 

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I'd want a dozen mech corps ready for the winter. The cav corps will get a TO&E boost in February that helps.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/11/2012 9:05:21 PM   
Michael T


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Last 2 turns have seen Soviet assaults cause 34K of German (not allies) permanent losses (P/L) for the loss of 97K Soviet (P/L).

Here is a list of the guys I have most fun with.




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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/11/2012 9:28:26 PM   
Kamil

 

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Wow, Your diabolical prowess defy reality .


What surprises me most is total commitment to already won game. Rare stuff not too drop level of performance while wining.


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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/11/2012 10:10:56 PM   
Michael T


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@Kamil, the only reason this game continues is because Pelton refuses to concede it. I do not know why he won't. I am trying to end it ASAP.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/11/2012 10:21:57 PM   
Aurelian

 

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Easier to continue to make claims it's broken or you're using exploits if he keeps playing.

You refuted his right hook, I guess now he's trying to bore you to death :)

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/11/2012 10:49:31 PM   
A game


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It would seem Pelton is just using this game as an experiment to trial his super "secret" GHC reserve defense strategy, but he is turning what should be an exciting struggle to the death on the eastern front into a giant accounting/ spreadsheet exercise.

And its the same in his other current AARs, its all just number crunching, he seems to be sucking the fun out of WitE...

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/11/2012 11:25:30 PM   
Michael T


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A Game I agree entirely. But I am very hopeful that 1943 will become more of a true game than this number crunching thing. I spend more time updating data and analysing data on my spreadsheets than playing! I have no choice in 1942 because the game state is what Pelton has made it. Come 1943 he will lose that power and the game will become what I make of it.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/12/2012 4:06:22 AM   
Klydon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: A game

It would seem Pelton is just using this game as an experiment to trial his super "secret" GHC reserve defense strategy, but he is turning what should be an exciting struggle to the death on the eastern front into a giant accounting/ spreadsheet exercise.

And its the same in his other current AARs, its all just number crunching, he seems to be sucking the fun out of WitE...


The game in general has this issue, and the track meets where both sides run away from each other isn't any fun either. Until things are put in place to prevent this from happening, the game is not going to evolve to the next level. The nonsense that is the air model needs a pile of work as well since it is open to abuse at so many levels.

Until the game develops a good struggle for life or death, it is going to be stale and boring. Right now, the state of the game is why I play against the AI with either side because you don't get the nonsense you get in head to head matches.

In essence, most all computer games are going to come down to number crunching. What is the optimal angle on something? What is the best mix of units? People have been looking to grind numbers to get an edge forever. It can feel like a second job at times and isn't what a lot of people would term as fun, but to each their own.

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/12/2012 4:21:08 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

quote:

ORIGINAL: A game
And its the same in his other current AARs, its all just number crunching, he seems to be sucking the fun out of WitE...


In essence, most all computer games are going to come down to number crunching. What is the optimal angle on something? What is the best mix of units? People have been looking to grind numbers to get an edge forever. It can feel like a second job at times and isn't what a lot of people would term as fun, but to each their own.



I think I have a higher level of tolerance when it comes to crib game data to check whether what I'm doing at the organizational level works or not. Managing the Red Army properly is highly situational, and a relatively hands off approach rarely works very well against a player who understands how to exploit the inherent edge of the German Army: superior mobility, firepower and general quality.

This game in particular, for whatever the reason, has become a WW1-like thing, and it requires a different set of skills to play through it. One of such skills is patience, and I've said before, I'm impressed by Michael's patience. His determination is, simply put, scary.

< Message edited by Bletchley_Geek -- 12/12/2012 5:46:31 AM >

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RE: Razing the Reich (No Pelton) - 12/12/2012 4:26:39 AM   
Flaviusx


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The reason this particular game has devolved into a WWI type situation is quite simple: Pelton ran away and decided to go turtle early.

This has nothing to do with the game engine and everything to do with a conscious strategic choice made by the Axis player. Now, some folks say that said choice shouldn't even be available. I'm going withold judgment on that pending the outcome of this game. If, as I expect, Micheal wins handily (and I think he can close the deal by the end of 44) then that will discourage other players from trying this out and the problem solves itself.



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