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36000 casualties in one air strike?

 
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36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/11/2012 10:25:38 PM   
gravyface_

 

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Playing Fall Weiss, sent a Stuka unit in for an air strike... to the tune of 36K casualties listed under the "Detailed Losses". Ummm, what? Looked up what a Dywizja Piechoty was (infantry division) and can't see a Polish infantry division having that many troops let alone taking that many casualties. Does that number not represent KIA soldiers?
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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/11/2012 10:53:13 PM   
gwgardner

 

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In a previous thread someone reported that the parameter for calculating losses is being multiplied by ten or something like that. Has to be fixed.

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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/12/2012 3:15:22 AM   
gravyface_

 

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Ah ok. I'm assuming we'll be waiting a while for a fix for this?

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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/12/2012 7:30:15 AM   
Rasputitsa


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Deleted, double post.

< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 8/12/2012 8:07:04 AM >


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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/12/2012 7:46:14 AM   
Rasputitsa


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I am not sure if the casualty calculations need to be adjusted, there are others who will know better than I, but this example looks like a x10 error and I wonder if it transfers into the total casualty list in the report section.

However, in this scale of game (operational and strategic) the loses should not be seen as only KIA. If a division, or corps, breaks up under attack, there could be 10,000s of disorganised and demoralised men, without equipment, clogging the roads (France 1940), or heading for the forests (Russia 1941), they don't have to be KIA to be lost to a fighting unit and unable to fight.

< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 8/12/2012 8:48:36 AM >


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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/12/2012 12:30:58 PM   
gravyface_

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

I am not sure if the casualty calculations need to be adjusted, there are others who will know better than I, but this example looks like a x10 error and I wonder if it transfers into the total casualty list in the report section.

However, in this scale of game (operational and strategic) the loses should not be seen as only KIA. If a division, or corps, breaks up under attack, there could be 10,000s of disorganised and demoralised men, without equipment, clogging the roads (France 1940), or heading for the forests (Russia 1941), they don't have to be KIA to be lost to a fighting unit and unable to fight.


Well, it's hard to say: the turns are a week long and the units seem to be of the wing (Schlachtgeschwader) size, if one assumes that Luftflotte 1 (the actual unit represented) would've sent the entire wing for the attack (I/SG 3 for example)... still say that's too high. The division doesn't even have 36,000 men in it; that would be Corps size and I'm sure the unit represented is a Division IIRC.

Think there was only 336 Stukas that participated in Fall Weiss so the 25 losses I sustained doesn't seem right either.

Either way, finding this a glaring oversight/flaw/bug in the game to fail to accurately portray casualties.

< Message edited by gravyface_ -- 8/12/2012 3:15:18 PM >

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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/12/2012 7:52:08 PM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gravyface_
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

I am not sure if the casualty calculations need to be adjusted, there are others who will know better than I, but this example looks like a x10 error and I wonder if it transfers into the total casualty list in the report section.

However, in this scale of game (operational and strategic) the loses should not be seen as only KIA. If a division, or corps, breaks up under attack, there could be 10,000s of disorganised and demoralised men, without equipment, clogging the roads (France 1940), or heading for the forests (Russia 1941), they don't have to be KIA to be lost to a fighting unit and unable to fight.


Well, it's hard to say: the turns are a week long and the units seem to be of the wing (Schlachtgeschwader) size, if one assumes that Luftflotte 1 (the actual unit represented) would've sent the entire wing for the attack (I/SG 3 for example)... still say that's too high. The division doesn't even have 36,000 men in it; that would be Corps size and I'm sure the unit represented is a Division IIRC.

Think there was only 336 Stukas that participated in Fall Weiss so the 25 losses I sustained doesn't seem right either.

Either way, finding this a glaring oversight/flaw/bug in the game to fail to accurately portray casualties.


I am agreeing that this particular example looks like a x10 error, but I also think we should not just be looking at losses in terms of only KIA, loses may run into large figures for many reasons that are not just those killed.

Does this error transfer into the loses data featured in the report section, or is it just a numbers display problem, are the actual calculations wrong, or is correct data being wrongly displayed.

The game works with units made up of strength points, purchased with PPs. If you lose a Corps with strength points of 6, it's the loss of those 6 strength points which is significant to the game mechanics, the notification of soldiers lost is window dressing and it is annoying if the figures are not relevant, but it shouldn't effect the game mechanics.


< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 8/13/2012 11:27:24 AM >


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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/13/2012 5:08:23 PM   
doomtrader


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Looks like this value is a bug, I will check it and if needed we are going to fix it for next patch.

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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/13/2012 5:34:54 PM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
Looks like this value is a bug, I will check it and if needed we are going to fix it for next patch.


Is the 'next patch' for this item going to be 1.02, or the one after that.


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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/13/2012 6:02:46 PM   
doomtrader


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The one after that.

I get a hint from Matrix that they will announce the patch today.

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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/13/2012 6:38:12 PM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
The one after that.

I get a hint from Matrix that they will announce the patch today.


On the issue of 1.02, that's good news, thanks.

On the possibility of the bug, do you think it is just an error in displaying combat results, or that the combat calculations could be in error.

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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/13/2012 6:56:44 PM   
doomtrader


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We have been struggling with the displayed values for units in the meantime, so I'm not pretty sure at this moment which one might this be.

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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/13/2012 8:22:53 PM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
We have been struggling with the displayed values for units in the meantime, so I'm not pretty sure at this moment which one might this be.


OK, thanks for the info, I have been waiting for 1.02, but I will watch the combat results more closely.


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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/14/2012 11:09:53 AM   
Rasputitsa


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In the Statistics of the Reports display there is a grand total of each nation's casualties, those suffered and inflicted, is this total taken from adding the numbers of men lost in the combat reports, or converted from the number of strength points lost ?

Is this total figure likely to be in error, or does it come from another source ?

Just about to get started with 1.02 and it would be nice to know how much reliance to place on the different numbers displays.

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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/17/2012 12:52:24 PM   
Meteor2

 

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Needs adjustment quickly.

An attack of two german bombers with strength of 10 (so 4 single attacks) decimated a polish corps by 85000 men (!!!).
By the way, it was a strength 1 polish corps !

A single french bombardment (strength 7) against a single german corps gave 25000 casulties.

What a calculation...

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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/17/2012 3:26:39 PM   
Rasputitsa


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The displayed personnel casualty results are obviously way out, but the important thing is the loss of unit strength points, if these results are wrong then there is a big problem. If it is only a matter of transferring the correct unit strength loss results into a number of men, then it is annoying, but not critical.

Is it just a display error, or calculation fault, which would be much more serious. Hope Doomtrader can confirm which is the case.

Also, are each nation's total casualty figures in the reports section also inflated, or can they be relied on as correct.

< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 8/17/2012 3:28:16 PM >


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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/19/2012 2:04:56 AM   
marklv

 

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This is a MAJOR defect! It's not just one unit - it's all the goddamn units in the game!!

How could this defect not have been spotted during testing? I just don't understand.

The other thing that has always annoyed me is why the USSR never surrenders, even if you kill, disable and/or capture 22 million soldiers etc. It's not realistic. And high losses should severely impact the quality of troops as the experienced soldiers are killed, disabled or captured - I don't know if this is calculated, probably not.

< Message edited by marklv -- 8/19/2012 2:07:58 AM >

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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/28/2012 11:55:12 AM   
Meteor2

 

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Hello Doomtrader,

any chance to get this fixed in the coming "hot fix patch" ?
It is really annoying and I ask myself, how it was possible to ignore this in the test phase of the previous patch.

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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/29/2012 1:49:23 AM   
gravyface_

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

-- snip --
Also, are each nation's total casualty figures in the reports section also inflated, or can they be relied on as correct.


They're inflated. One turn in and my casualties are 29K, Poles 355K.

Messing around with UnitComposition in consts_Germany.ini right now in the scenarios\1939 Grand Campaign Germany folder; who knows.

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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/29/2012 8:08:02 AM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gravyface_
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

-- snip --
Also, are each nation's total casualty figures in the reports section also inflated, or can they be relied on as correct.


They're inflated. One turn in and my casualties are 29K, Poles 355K.

Messing around with UnitComposition in consts_Germany.ini right now in the scenarios\1939 Grand Campaign Germany folder; who knows.


OK, thanks, so although the figures are inflated, looks like x10, the combat is done in strength points which should be correct. The casualty error should be corrected in the hotfix, due out in September, so the link below says.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3171884




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RE: 36000 casualties in one air strike? - 8/29/2012 2:09:41 PM   
gravyface_

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa


quote:

ORIGINAL: gravyface_
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

-- snip --
Also, are each nation's total casualty figures in the reports section also inflated, or can they be relied on as correct.


They're inflated. One turn in and my casualties are 29K, Poles 355K.

Messing around with UnitComposition in consts_Germany.ini right now in the scenarios\1939 Grand Campaign Germany folder; who knows.


OK, thanks, so although the figures are inflated, looks like x10, the combat is done in strength points which should be correct. The casualty error should be corrected in the hotfix, due out in September, so the link below says.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3171884





Good news! There's something (sadistically) satisfying about seeing accurate casualty counts. I know the strength indicator in most war games is a convenient (and necessary) abstraction based on a boatload of variables, but without an accurate body count, it's just not a wargame.

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