Walloc
Posts: 2541
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Pelton
Wrong wrong and more wrong.
Sure the Germans come back, but gimped.
Its 100% about morale as GHC nothing esle matters nearly as much.
If the GHC has 10-15 Surrenders a offensive in 42 is not going to be a cake walk, but very doable vs lesser players.
If the GHC has 15-20 Surrenders an offensive is still possible, but will not last long and once SHC starts pushing German lines will crumble quickly.
I GHC has 20+ surrenders its game set match. This leave way to many gimpy 3 to 5 CV units in the line that SHC can easly push and build morale fast.
Manpower is not the issue for GHC its infantry morale. Divisions that start with 80+ morale can lose about 30 battles before getting down to the 60 range. Thats a difference of 20+ CV and 5 or 6. Thats huge.
Hi Pelton,
I think ur missing the point. I dont disagree that in that game is as now that, then ur right, moral is the king. Thats is not what im trying to point out.
There have been alot of discussing about the "unhistoric" feel of the game, russian running and so on. Talk about through VP or other means tying the russian down so they cant run, fine.
I have been looking at some of the reasons why that IMO cant stand alone. If u wanted a historic feel game. As russian reinforcement/replacement rates are as now, IMO tying down the russian with out doing any thing else, is a doomed cause. Not that u cant do it but 90% of the games would be over by turn 10. Like the MT vs Tarhunnas game. U simply cant sustain historic losses cuz the replacement rates arent historic.
So if u tie the russian down and expect them to take historic losses and by that have a historic feel game IMO one would be wrong. I know that this is recogniesed. That the russian in game replacement simply rates cant sustain that.
Thats isnt the whole story tho IMO. When u look at the german OOB historicly apart from short 2 periodes in the spring/mud season of spring 42 and spring 43 the german army historicly was continuasly falling in numbers during the entire eastern war. Replacement/reinforcrments never could cope with the losses. This isnt the story in part the average game atm, and for reasons.
When u look at german inf divs in nov/early dec 41 or even in oct for some divs, historicly. It not impossible to find inf divs at near 50% ToE. That never unless in exceptional cases happens in game currently. Why, well 2 things.
1. U dont take historic losses in the inf divs. A discussion of why is a bit long but in short one of the reason is ofc the russian runs and there for much less combat occures.
2. The in game replacement/reinforcement rates are about 1 mio for germans alone over the historic rates by end of June 42. Its natural that if u have 1 mio more manpower than historic that, that is soaked up in among the inf divs keeping them at a much higher ToE than historic.
The leads to another point. One that the russian dont get the replacement to sustain a forward defence. Another point is that the in game as now german divs retain a far too high mapower lvl during the later parts of the summer campaign 41 and through out 42.
U ur self have noted in many of ur AARs that the inf divs usually retain 85-90+ ToE in '41 with np. Again that happens partly because of the in game replacement rates.
Well what if i all of a sudden put all ur inf divs at 50-60% ToE. The CV lost in that alone would be one of the factor why the russian stopped the german historicly. A number of the german inf divs, not to talk about the pz divs, had a ToE lvl that significantly alters in the their CV, lessning their offensive punch. Would moral be the king it is now. I dont think it would be nearly as much.
If, not that its going to happen, this could be a factor in looking to achvieing a more historic feel to the campaign. In 2 ways. The germans historicly takes losses to an extend it not only becomes are question of the russian stopping them but that the combat power of the german war machine is depleted, leading to lower CV again making them easier to stop in late(r) 41. Then u could even look at reducing / removing the blizzard effects. U cant now, if it wasnt for some sorta blizzard effect the blizzard would be no different than the snow turns before them and the german offensive would continue unabatted tho MP usage is slightly higher.
Also come 42. As u say u always see german OOBs ar 3.2m-3.4m in game now. Exactly. Because of the 1 mio extra manpower u never ever see a historic lvl german summer OOB numbers. Because of this moral is king. Because u never had to worry about manpower. Not even a very bad blizzard will get u down to the historic lvl.
Now again what if we removed that 1 mio manpower and saw german OOB at lower than those 3.4-3.5mio we see now, but lets say one had 2.7m instead. As historic. U again ur self has many times has noted that u in no way feel inhabbited in ur 42 offensive and that u even can under take offensives at 2-3 places in summer 42. Sure the manpower lvl is at such an level that u dont have to compromise. That isnt in line with the historic experience. German had to, too some extend canabilize AGC/AGN to make AGS offensiveble.
I would suspect that if we in game had german OOB at 2.6-2.7-2.8mio ish that there would have to be more compromises that we see now and the scope of the offensives would be different than now. Again i would speculate in such cases moral wouldnt quite be the king as of now. Not that it wont be importand but the manpower lvls would also dicate that one cant simutaniously under take the 2-3 offensives that is possible now.
This could lead to a more historic feel.
All that said, it will in many way gimp the german army in ways we dont see now. So im not sure that ppl really would want it, but that the problem IMO with ppl calling for a more historic feeling and not wanting to have the bad sides that come with it.
quote:
I know I have done more Blizzards then anyone by FAR. The manpower Number means zero for GHC, its always between 3.2 and 3.4 million.
Exactly my point. Cause of the current in game replacement rates as of now u never had a 2,7m man army instead of a 3.4m. So manpower feels like nothing cause u always had em. I think the experience would be different if u had 2.7mio man army instead, generally speaking.
U have many a times noted that when the GHC army gets below 3.3mio that offensives get undesireable. In summer of 42 GHC historicly had to make tough choices to canabilize AGC/AGN to make AGS into an offensive force. U never had to make that choice in game, with the historical OOB of 2.789mio IIRC man german summer 42 army.
Do note i, dont see this alone. I have long stated and that think the combat engine favors the attacking side in a fashion that isnt unfavorble for the game. Alteration to that would have to be made so the germans wouldnt just be overruned when going on the defensive. Further more it isnt a quesiton of not allowing ppl to do better/worse than historic.
There are a couple of discourses in the discussion on teh forums that is semi detrimental IMO. One one side ppl want a more "historic feel" at the same time they feel that the game is on "rails".
Noting alot of things usually about the german side that "puts" them on "rails". Well if u want a more historic feel and dont want rails, apart from the apparent disconnet of those 2 thing. How do u get a "historic feel" with out show how shaping that, that happens. Well IMO one of the things that help not having a historic feel, is that the german army gets depeleted at a much later time than historic cuz of the extra 1 mio man leaving russian never being able to stop the german on "their own" in 41. Hench among other things the running/need for blizzard rules.
Kind regards,
Rasmus
< Message edited by Walloc -- 11/10/2012 5:09:41 PM >
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RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 
So my bad. 
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