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Extra grain for the horse = HQB?

 
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Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 9/22/2012 3:38:39 AM   
Pelton

 

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The south nothing major as the gap was to much to over come this turn. I did several HQB’s just to see how that works out next turn. Only 1 unit in trouble down here.

Dam hard running west in 5 feet of snow!!!

I gave my cav a HQB, now is it extra gas or more grain?

I do expect a double answer to a single question heheheh




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Pelton -- 9/22/2012 3:40:18 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 61
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 9/22/2012 3:40:57 AM   
Pelton

 

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Air drops at this point seem extra cheesy and even I will not do them.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 62
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 9/22/2012 2:34:11 PM   
Klydon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


I gave my cav a HQB, now is it extra gas or more grain?




Yes.

As an aside, not sure it is worth burning build ups at this point because of the truck issues the SHC will face in mid game.

It doesn't look like he pulled back at all in front of your blizzard offensive and that is likely a mistake to a point just from the amount of troops you have and how much is in close contact. Russians need a lot of good attacks across the front to apply as much pressure as possible and demoralize the Germans.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 63
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 9/22/2012 3:15:11 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


I gave my cav a HQB, now is it extra gas or more grain?




Yes.

As an aside, not sure it is worth burning build ups at this point because of the truck issues the SHC will face in mid game.

It doesn't look like he pulled back at all in front of your blizzard offensive and that is likely a mistake to a point just from the amount of troops you have and how much is in close contact. Russians need a lot of good attacks across the front to apply as much pressure as possible and demoralize the Germans.


Most of my helds were at less then 1 to 2 odds so GHC units lost morale. Any attack I can get withen that range I am attacking. I am tring to pick on some units more then other as that will make them worthless come spring and summer.

I figured I try the HQB and see how it works

< Message edited by Pelton -- 9/22/2012 3:20:43 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 64
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 9/30/2012 3:22:40 AM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 28
Russian losses this turn: ,000 Total dead: 3,000,000
Russian OOB: 6,105,000
SHC net OOB change:
Russian units currently in a pocket: 0
German loses this turn: Total Dead: 819,000

GHC OOB: 3,190,000
GHC net OOB change:
GHC Divisions lost: 1
GHC units in a pocket: 4
Regiments lost:


SHC:
Retreats: 9
Holds: 15

SHC kills off 1 divisions and will now try and kill one per turn. The snowball starts rolling, I will kill off 2 per turn and hope I get several more to keep the snowball rolling.

This should make for more pocketed units going into February.

My win lose ratio is a joke, but infantry cv is sky high as only cav or tank units can attack. If GHC stops running in february SHC should beable to hit hard and get some pockets still.

Right now GHC is retreating 2 hexes a turn from 50 miles north of Moscow to Rostov. So all the easy terrian near Moscow will be mine NP. SHC is digging 40 miles of forts NE,E and SE of Moscow. It will not fall in 42, I hope hehehe.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 65
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 9/30/2012 3:24:10 AM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 29
Russian losses this turn: 54,000 Total dead: 3,054,000
Russian OOB: 6,150,000
SHC net OOB change: 45,000
Russian units currently in a pocket: 0
German loses this turn: 94,000 Total Dead: 913,000

GHC OOB: 3,160,000
GHC net OOB change: -30,000
GHC Divisions lost: 3
Regiments lost: 0
German units currently in a pocket: 6


SHC:
Retreats: 6
Holds: 21

As of now there are 3 German divisions lost with another 3 totally sealed off and will surrender in coming turns. There are also another 3 that will probably be lost. Plus 1 Rum and 2 Italian. Kind of amazing seeing I am losing about 2/3 of my battles, but yet still able to pocket at least 9 german divisions already with another 4 turns to go of good blizzard and I now have the replacement snowball rolling so that February could be a good month also. The other up side is my infantry divisions have fought very little so they are all near 80% + toe, so if GHC stops to fight they will get nailed hard.

SHC kills off 2 divisions. In the center 2 tank brigades punch through lines and put allot of German units in a bad place.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 66
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 9/30/2012 3:26:43 AM   
Pelton

 

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In the south 2 more Italian divisions and 1 German division is totally sealed of and will surrender in coming turns. Another 2 German divisions and 1 Rum are cut off , but will require 1 more turn to totally seal off.

Fact is I have no idea what I am doing, still tring to figure out how to merge units at this point its all latian to me. Cant get cav/mech or infntry units to merge.

Ok I have a nice army of ants come summer hehehe more units to dig holes with.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 67
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 9/30/2012 5:09:02 PM   
Klydon


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You need 3 cav divisions in a hex and then hit the shift-b key I think (Same as breaking down or building up German divisions). That will form cav corps. Reminder with Russian corps units, you can directly assign SU's to them. Sapper regiments are good to use or some tank battalion/regiments.

Too early for infantry and mech units to form into corps.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 68
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 9/30/2012 5:45:07 PM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 30
Russian losses this turn: 86,000 Total dead: 3,120,000
Russian OOB: 6,171,000
SHC net OOB change: 21,000
Russian units currently in a pocket: 0
German loses this turn: 75,000 Total Dead: 988,000

GHC OOB: 3,183,000
GHC net OOB change: 23,000
GHC Divisions lost: 6
Regiments lost: 1
German units currently in a pocket: 3


SHC:
Retreats: 24
Holds: 24

Front line GHC is dropping every turn from Tula south at or below December levels, with the replacement exploit in full effect few if any replacements are getting to front line units so cv levels are falling. SHC has 1 or 2 more turns to pocket more units to keep the snowball rolling into February. Also units in the north have been attacking Finish units every turn causing 2k to 3k loses per turn. Loses have been heavy on our side, but Finland can’t take the pounding.

West of Moscow :

Three 10 mile wide holes have been punched in lines and a 20 mile wide hole, this puts 5 German divisions under threat of encirclement. A shock army is leading this offensive.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 69
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 9/30/2012 5:45:46 PM   
Pelton

 

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West of Orel:

The north side of the pincer strong units from, hmm The Rainbow Warriors push 20 miles in the SW direction a full 30 miles wide.

MT and high morale infantry units have been moved into this thrust after screen shot was taken. High MP units remain in reserve just behind the front to exploit and breakthrough hexes.

On the southern arm of the pincer 38th Cav and 60th tank armys open up the breakthrough to 30 miles wide and threaten to encircle a full 15 German divisions. Air drops were made to both armys so high MP’s will be had next turn.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 70
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 9/30/2012 5:46:38 PM   
Pelton

 

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Stalino Area:

In the south four 10 mile wide gaps have been punched in the German lines threatening another 17 German divisions and 8 minor allies divisions.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 71
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 9/30/2012 5:54:27 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

You need 3 cav divisions in a hex and then hit the shift-b key I think (Same as breaking down or building up German divisions). That will form cav corps. Reminder with Russian corps units, you can directly assign SU's to them. Sapper regiments are good to use or some tank battalion/regiments.

Too early for infantry and mech units to form into corps.


Thanks for info

Just think how much better I would be doing with 6-8 cav corps running around !!!!!!!!

As it is smokendave is in some huge trouble with close to another 50 divisions under threat of being pocketed.

I beleive his only option is to cut his losses and run west faster then he is if thats even possible.

Not bad for a newbie SHC player.

Poeple think I am crazy for retreating back to Poland vs MT, but MT has many blizzard under his belt and can easly crush any dummy stupid enough to think retreating west 20-30 miles per turn will save GHC from a huge disaster of 30+ german divisions being wiped out.


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 72
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 9/30/2012 5:56:14 PM   
Pelton

 

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Most of frontline GHC cv from Tule south is 2. North of that its much higher, but in most cases I can easly match it as fighting have been light until now.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 73
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 10/1/2012 1:27:15 AM   
Pelton

 

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Stavka has recieved rumors from the front that as many as 25 Hun units have been cut off west of Orel.



Can it be true?

General Flaviusx says its simply not possible, it must be a Hun lie



Major Pelton has been sent to the front to find out whats going on. Of course he will return with good news or die at the front tring to make it so.



_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 74
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 10/1/2012 12:53:40 PM   
Flaviusx


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Your opponent has badly mismanaged his blizzard, Pelton, and didn't begin his retreat until after you attacked. So he has never been able to cleanly break contact with you. Smokendave, as I recall, is mostly a Soviet player and may not have a lot of experience in handling the blizzard.

He tried to stop you at his fort line and instead should have faded away from the getgo. My impression here is he has also withdrawn far too much stuff from the front and has no reserve available to counterattack. I don't see a single panzer anywhere. All of this is leading to fairly predictable and unremarkable results. You are of course beating up on a bunch of landsers who cannot get away from you and have no back up.

(Alternately, there's Bob's linebacker defense, but very few Axis players get how to do this. Preemptive withdrawal is simpler.)

None of this validates your recent hysteria over the blizzard or the claim that you have to run to Poland.

Before you break your arm patting yourself on the back, I suggest taking it up a notch and playing against a veteran Axis opponent who actually knows how to manage the blizzard.





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Post #: 75
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 10/1/2012 1:14:44 PM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
(Alternately, there's Bob's linebacker defense, but very few Axis players get how to do this. Preemptive withdrawal is simpler.)


I have tried Bob's tactic, in principle it is a great concept. Unfortunately the G&G luck factor decided too often against me, and in one game I pretty much wasted the Wehrmacht against AI (!) doing counterattacks to relieve cut-off units whenever possible. Fortunately it was no human opponent, else I would have lost a lot more than just morale. Building strong "Schwerpunkte" for counterattacks in January to March is mandatory to get anywhere, I'd say starting February I was able to achieve something despite the penalties, and "only" concentrating some 2-3x the defender numbers. Yet still with about 3 to 5 (deliberate) attacks failing for each one succeeding during the whole blizzard season, I looked at morale losses that were "net" quite severe.

Perhaps I would have done better to let cut off units die in peace, and at least keep morale of my Panzers, Mot and some selected infantry high instead of weakening them with such relieve attempts? Many German infantry units will be at morale 70 or below after blizzard anyway, so why not rebuild them and wait for national moral gains to restore some morale? Manpower in spring seems generally sufficient for that, and it doesn't matter so much whether replacements go to frost-bitten infantry divisions in the front (where they are subject to attrition again), or to shells in Germany? Unless you loose large numbers, that might be smarter? What do you think -- are counterattacks sensible given the high morale losses you could accumulate during blizzard?

< Message edited by janh -- 10/1/2012 1:16:39 PM >

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Post #: 76
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 10/1/2012 2:45:22 PM   
Flaviusx


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I think you need to counterattack tank brigades and even cavalry divisions to limit their penetrations. That's why stripping the front entirely of all mobile units is a bad idea for the Germans. If you can squirrel away a dozen panzer divisions this is surely a good core for counteroffensives from March 42 on, but leaving nothing but landsers in the east during the blizzard makes them more or less helpless. They simply don't have the mobility to do much more than fall back and stay out of reach of the rifle divisions. If they get zoc'd by tanks brigades and cavalry they won't even be able to do that.

With a dozen panzer divisions and probably most of the motorized divisions left in the east during the winter and the balance left aside in winter quarters, you can keep the Soviet mobile units at bay to some extent and avoid getting the landsers caught in the grip of zocs. Yes, their morale will suffer some doing this, but it will recover after March.

In this particular game I don't see a single mobile division anywhere. So the moment the Soviets penetrate anywhere something is going to get trapped.



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Post #: 77
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 10/1/2012 2:45:41 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Your opponent has badly mismanaged his blizzard, Pelton, and didn't begin his retreat until after you attacked.


Flaviusx, we are consistently seeing this in almost every AAR. We're no Guderians, ok, point taken, but still...

There's an exception though: ME Maybe I'm just a moron because I don't try to throw the cavarly and tank brigades through the flanks of the chosen "victims", as I know that would be their doom. Until they fix this (if they ever do) to me it's rather er... gamey.

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Post #: 78
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 10/1/2012 2:47:36 PM   
gingerbread


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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh
---
What do you think -- are counterattacks sensible given the high morale losses you could accumulate during blizzard?


I'll start by stating that I have very little experience playing the Axis, so evaluate my input with that in mind.
However, I'm rather used to the Soviet side and would think that it would depend on the distance to rail for the Soviets. If few MP, replacements will fix the units (counter-) attacked, but if the rail is distant, the units could be wrecked for a while and that could make it worth the negative effects to the attackers. This adds to the case for some withdrawal as well as pre-emptive rail destruction operations before Blizzard. Don't let the Soviets fight you close to their rail supply.

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Post #: 79
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 10/1/2012 2:56:24 PM   
Flaviusx


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Tullius, not sure what's gamey about using mobile forces to flank defenders. That's kind of the point of having them.

I see a lot of Axis players falling apart during the blizzard because they evacuate every single mobile unit to winter quarters and leave their infantry to fend for themselves.



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Post #: 80
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 10/1/2012 3:20:37 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Tullius, not sure what's gamey about using mobile forces to flank defenders. That's kind of the point of having them.


I agree. I should have said the "consequences" are gamey

If this was rather exceptional, I would think some players are doing something wrong. But it's way too regular.

As for heading to Poland...

_____________________________

"When the seagulls follow a trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea" -- Eric Cantona, XX century philosopher

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 81
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 10/1/2012 3:50:34 PM   
Klydon


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I think this is more of a result of current German tactics of typically stripping every extra unit out of the line (especially panzer forces) and sending them to Poland to serve as the core for a 1942 offensive. What is happening to the Germans on the front is not the fault of the game in this case. As Flaviusx mentions, you need some local reserves.

All too often, I see the mountain divisions broken down and in the line to hold a sector of the line. IMO, you don't do that. You keep them handy for use as both a reserve force (they show up, it will be a failed attack by the Russians) and also to counter attack the typically weak Russian spearheads.

A fair number of German panzer units must be left in Russia to help. I typically try to use those units that will leave the game at some point (Example, 10th panzer division withdraws). While their moral is somewhat important, I don't care as much about them long term. I want to preserve units that are going to be on the East Front long term. What I try to do with these units is to have them under cover in a city near the front. You can see about using them as reserve forces as well as they will usually result in a failed attack by the Russians. I have found the key with a lot of these units is their MP's are not very good because of the supply situation. Many players will have the Luftwaffe head to national reserve to get them out of theater because of winter. While I do send some units to reserve, the transports stay and fly refueling missions to my key panzer units to help with their movement. This allows them to leave cover, counter attack, and have enough movement to get back to cover. You also need to have some infantry available as reserves. Why? A lot of times, the Russians have their best success pounding on the same divisions as they move forward and the Germans put them back in the line because there isn't anything else. By rotating divisions out, you have a fresh division to plug the hole against tired Russian units and it at least wears them down without running your own infantry down too much. While you can't do this across the front, being able to do it with 5-10 divisions could help a lot. Pull a division back to Poland and let it rest for a couple of turns on refit and it is ready to go back to work.

Having said this, I typically try to avoid moving panzer units around in December because that is when the winter is at its worse. The troops must fend for themselves for the 4 turns of December the best they can (I usually retreat the most in December). After that, you can start to look at blunting most Russian winter offensives at least in some places. As time goes along, you should be able to slow down the Russian offensive across more of the front.

Another key is how you handle the Russian cav corps that can be in the lead a lot of times of any Russian penetration. Sometimes there are gaps between them and the rest of the Russian army. This is one of the keys. With panzers that have good movement, flip all the hexes that a cav corps can retreat to, THEN attack the cav corps. It will automatically rout when it has to retreat and this can often cause it to be out of service for a couple of turns while it recovers moral/equipment. Just pushing a cav corps back doesn't do the German a lot of good a lot of times. Also watch the Russian stacking. If you can eliminate open hexes and force the Russians to retreat on a full stack, they will instead rout. Get this to happen a couple of times and it follows that the Russian will become a bit more cautious.

All basic stuff I know, but hopefully it helps some and perhaps serve as a reminder for some others that you can't strip the front like what we have been seeing and not expect to pay a price for it.

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 82
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 10/1/2012 5:27:38 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Your opponent has badly mismanaged his blizzard, Pelton, and didn't begin his retreat until after you attacked. So he has never been able to cleanly break contact with you. Smokendave, as I recall, is mostly a Soviet player and may not have a lot of experience in handling the blizzard.

He tried to stop you at his fort line and instead should have faded away from the getgo. My impression here is he has also withdrawn far too much stuff from the front and has no reserve available to counterattack. I don't see a single panzer anywhere. All of this is leading to fairly predictable and unremarkable results. You are of course beating up on a bunch of landsers who cannot get away from you and have no back up.

(Alternately, there's Bob's linebacker defense, but very few Axis players get how to do this. Preemptive withdrawal is simpler.)

None of this validates your recent hysteria over the blizzard or the claim that you have to run to Poland.

Before you break your arm patting yourself on the back, I suggest taking it up a notch and playing against a veteran Axis opponent who actually knows how to manage the blizzard.






If you look at turn 25-the first turn of the blizzard. I have moved already so the grey hexes are the ones he retreated from. Smokendave34 retreated 2 to 3 hexes from just south of Lake Ilmen all the way south to Rostov.

So he was running so this completely shots down your idea that GHC was not running.

He was running BEFORE I attacked, as in he moved first.

So he DID NOT mismanage anything, hes been running 2-3 hexes a turn and I am still easly able to out run him.
Also he has been throwing in reserves as of late December and it is now Mid January.

You might want to reconsider your mismanagment comments and through in an aplogie to smokendave34. He did just what every other GHC player has been doing the last few months retreating 2+ hexes a turn.

Bob's linebacker defence is completely usless. I tried that the first time I played TDV and got wiped and then tried running the last turn of snow and got wiped.

I think your blizzard exp is very much lacking as you have now idea how poeple are so easly able to wipe GHC during blizzard. Ask MT I beleive he knows the tricks and probably can explain things allot better then I can. If he wants to explain it to anyone, he likes to keep things on the low down generally.

quote:

None of this validates your recent hysteria over the blizzard or the claim that you have to run to Poland.



No no Sir none of what you said refutes what I have been saying, because you are flat out wrong. Smokedave34 was running before it was my turn.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/1/2012 5:29:22 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

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(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 83
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 10/1/2012 5:33:23 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I think you need to counterattack tank brigades and even cavalry divisions to limit their penetrations. That's why stripping the front entirely of all mobile units is a bad idea for the Germans. If you can squirrel away a dozen panzer divisions this is surely a good core for counteroffensives from March 42 on, but leaving nothing but landsers in the east during the blizzard makes them more or less helpless. They simply don't have the mobility to do much more than fall back and stay out of reach of the rifle divisions. If they get zoc'd by tanks brigades and cavalry they won't even be able to do that.

With a dozen panzer divisions and probably most of the motorized divisions left in the east during the winter and the balance left aside in winter quarters, you can keep the Soviet mobile units at bay to some extent and avoid getting the landsers caught in the grip of zocs. Yes, their morale will suffer some doing this, but it will recover after March.

In this particular game I don't see a single mobile division anywhere. So the moment the Soviets penetrate anywhere something is going to get trapped.




Almost no one pulls back all there mech units, generally poeple are pulling back 9 infantry and 8 to 12 panzer units.

In this game the GHC has tank committed near Lake Ilmen/Moscow and in Stalino area. I am guessing a little more then a dozen.

I have not got my turn back yet, but I am guessing hes commited more.

Hes not doing anything any different then any other GHC standard Blizzard defence.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 84
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 10/1/2012 5:36:24 PM   
Pelton

 

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Klydon in this game the MT divisions were used as divisions to counter near Stalino and keep that area from being a disaster. I "might" beable to pick off a unit or 2 but not likely as he has 6 panzer and 2 MT units near Stalino.


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 85
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 10/1/2012 5:49:06 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I think this is more of a result of current German tactics of typically stripping every extra unit out of the line (especially panzer forces) and sending them to Poland to serve as the core for a 1942 offensive. What is happening to the Germans on the front is not the fault of the game in this case. As Flaviusx mentions, you need some local reserves.

All too often, I see the mountain divisions broken down and in the line to hold a sector of the line. IMO, you don't do that. You keep them handy for use as both a reserve force (they show up, it will be a failed attack by the Russians) and also to counter attack the typically weak Russian spearheads.

A fair number of German panzer units must be left in Russia to help. I typically try to use those units that will leave the game at some point (Example, 10th panzer division withdraws). While their moral is somewhat important, I don't care as much about them long term. I want to preserve units that are going to be on the East Front long term. What I try to do with these units is to have them under cover in a city near the front. You can see about using them as reserve forces as well as they will usually result in a failed attack by the Russians. I have found the key with a lot of these units is their MP's are not very good because of the supply situation. Many players will have the Luftwaffe head to national reserve to get them out of theater because of winter. While I do send some units to reserve, the transports stay and fly refueling missions to my key panzer units to help with their movement. This allows them to leave cover, counter attack, and have enough movement to get back to cover. You also need to have some infantry available as reserves. Why? A lot of times, the Russians have their best success pounding on the same divisions as they move forward and the Germans put them back in the line because there isn't anything else. By rotating divisions out, you have a fresh division to plug the hole against tired Russian units and it at least wears them down without running your own infantry down too much. While you can't do this across the front, being able to do it with 5-10 divisions could help a lot. Pull a division back to Poland and let it rest for a couple of turns on refit and it is ready to go back to work.

Having said this, I typically try to avoid moving panzer units around in December because that is when the winter is at its worse. The troops must fend for themselves for the 4 turns of December the best they can (I usually retreat the most in December). After that, you can start to look at blunting most Russian winter offensives at least in some places. As time goes along, you should be able to slow down the Russian offensive across more of the front.

Another key is how you handle the Russian cav corps that can be in the lead a lot of times of any Russian penetration. Sometimes there are gaps between them and the rest of the Russian army. This is one of the keys. With panzers that have good movement, flip all the hexes that a cav corps can retreat to, THEN attack the cav corps. It will automatically rout when it has to retreat and this can often cause it to be out of service for a couple of turns while it recovers moral/equipment. Just pushing a cav corps back doesn't do the German a lot of good a lot of times. Also watch the Russian stacking. If you can eliminate open hexes and force the Russians to retreat on a full stack, they will instead rout. Get this to happen a couple of times and it follows that the Russian will become a bit more cautious.

All basic stuff I know, but hopefully it helps some and perhaps serve as a reminder for some others that you can't strip the front like what we have been seeing and not expect to pay a price for it.


I am not using Cav Corp as I have yet to figure out how to merge units, so next time around thing will be worse on my next opponent.

I think some are missing the point of how to break german lines in December. Cav or tank unit just dont go wild driving through gapping holes.

I have explained how TDV did it vs me and I have dont it at about 50% as effective as he did, if that.

1.You start by pinching off some infantry units, generally takes 2 to 3 turns.
2. try to pound on the same units in the area where you want pocket, same area you pinched off ssome units. As can be seen my attack ratio is a disaster, but effective.
3. Ok you pinched off some units the first few turn, now make them surrender at a rate of 1-2 per turn as these units will soak up 70-80% of all replasement. Now the units you been beating on and probably losing to by late December are all 1 to 2 cv. now your crappy 1cv cav and tank brigades can get hasty retreats.
4. by the first week of January or 2nd you will have real holes in the lines- all this time you have been holding back you best mobile troops. they are fully rested and have very high Mp's(dont forget to HQB)-That part is kinda tricky and doesnt always work beleive me but you should have enough Mps to easly get past the front 2 to 4 hexes.
5. By mid to late january its off to the races your Cav and tank units are running circles around everyone. fuel and supplies never seem to be an issue or atleast this time for me.

The real killer is the snowball of no replacements getting to the front line units and the little attacks that dont seem to be effective until late dec early january. You will find out they are effective if your hitting the same units over and over again.





_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 86
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 10/1/2012 6:04:12 PM   
Flaviusx


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From: Southern California
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Pelton, I don't see anything in reserve in these screens, and no panzers or mobile units of any kind. There's no depth at all here.


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Post #: 87
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 10/1/2012 8:59:08 PM   
Klydon


Posts: 2142
Joined: 11/28/2010
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My bad on the mountain units (got them crossed up with another AAR), but from what I have seen, people have a tendency to put them in the line, mostly as regiments, and I don't think that is the way to use them. They should be used as reserves/counter attackers.

Just looking over the screen shots you have posted, it is tough to tell what the GHC has for reserves. It sure doesn't look like he has much if anything and I don't see much for panzer units beyond the Slovakian motorized infantry.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 88
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 10/1/2012 9:04:14 PM   
Schmart

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Almost no one pulls back all there mech units, generally poeple are pulling back 9 infantry and 8 to 12 panzer units.


Should those units be pulled back? How many divisions did the Germans historically pull out to rest? I doubt very many, so if players are pulling out lots of units then of course their blizzard defense will be compromised in relation to historical abilities.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 89
RE: Extra grain for the horse = HQB? - 10/1/2012 10:46:04 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 6239
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline
Schmart, more and more I'm thinking that it's a mistake to pull any of it back. At any rate further back than urban centers in the Soviet Union proper and within range of the front line. You do not need absolutely pristine morale to get things going in 42, especially if you don't leave the landsers to fend for themselves and get wrecked. You can have 75-80 morale units that stay on the field, and that's good enough against a Red Army clocking in around 40-45 on average.



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