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RE: Winter 1942/1943

 
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RE: Winter 1942/1943 - 12/27/2012 6:22:08 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

I don't really get your thinking on the disabled casualties.


Basicly 1/2 of Russian disabled are discarded every turn-never to return.

All German disabled return.

1% of the pool total returns per turn so basicly all disabled Germans from turns 1-170( not totally sure) return by the end of the game.

So 100% of 1% of the German disabled pool return every turn.

50% of (1%) SHC pool are discarded and 50% of (1%) return.



_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Karri)
Post #: 211
RE: Winter 1942/1943 - 12/27/2012 6:24:48 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
Make things allot more simple if they would simply called 1/2 of all disabled russians kia seeing they will never return.



_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 212
RE: Winter 1942/1943 - 12/27/2012 9:49:54 PM   
Karri

 

Posts: 802
Joined: 5/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


Basicly 1/2 of Russian disabled are discarded every turn-never to return.

All German disabled return.

1% of the pool total returns per turn so basicly all disabled Germans from turns 1-170( not totally sure) return by the end of the game.

So 100% of 1% of the German disabled pool return every turn.

50% of (1%) SHC pool are discarded and 50% of (1%) return.





Yes, but you cannot count them into turnly casualties. It doesn't translate so easily.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 213
RE: Winter 1942/1943 - 12/28/2012 6:38:56 PM   
Karri

 

Posts: 802
Joined: 5/24/2006
Status: offline
I needed to clear my thinking a bit. But basically if we follow your argument, then you could say that no units are lost ever since they return eventually. Apart from scheduled withdrawals of course.

(in reply to Karri)
Post #: 214
RE: Winter 1942/1943 - 12/28/2012 9:15:20 PM   
Wuffer

 

Posts: 224
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline
It's only a minor problem, I'm afraid. The main issues are based on GHC's inability of counterattacking the sowjet spearhead(s), so the front becomes longer and longer... A true elastic defence isn't possible with the engine yet.

(in reply to Karri)
Post #: 215
RE: Winter 1942/1943 - 12/29/2012 4:27:56 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wuffer

It's only a minor problem, I'm afraid. The main issues are based on GHC's inability of counterattacking the sowjet spearhead(s), so the front becomes longer and longer... A true elastic defence isn't possible with the engine yet.


Yes the problem that shows its truely ugly head in WitE and WitW.

The attacker punished for winning and defender rewarded for losing, even when 100k+ is routed.

How to fix the rubix cube algorithm with out braking the game?

Some poeple see the forest through the trees, most just see pancakes

< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/29/2012 4:30:47 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Wuffer)
Post #: 216
RE: Winter 1942/1943 - 12/29/2012 6:28:58 AM   
Wuffer

 

Posts: 224
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline
na, wouldn't call it 'ugly' - just a demonstration of the immense complexity around designing a reasonable and playable game which allows some strategic (or better said: operational!) latitude without becoming a total boring simulation AND without ending in complete absurd constellations (e.g. Panzers in Vladivostok).

Let's agree there is some room for further improvements...

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 217
RE: Winter 1942/1943 - 12/29/2012 11:56:49 PM   
Marquo


Posts: 1338
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline
Pelton,

I disagree with Wuffer: the Axis player can inflict grievous losses on the Soviet spearheads; in the IGO-UGO system the "victorious" Soviet armored stacks are depleted and hurt; with a defensive CV of ~ 15 the Axis can attack at 4-5:1 and put a hurt on. In my game with TD I inflict 3 - 5,000 losses for ~ 1,000; the added benefit is that the units rout or are so hurt they can't attack several turns and it restores the morale balance.

Marquo

(in reply to Wuffer)
Post #: 218
RE: Winter 1942/1943 - 12/30/2012 12:48:29 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wuffer

na, wouldn't call it 'ugly' - just a demonstration of the immense complexity around designing a reasonable and playable game which allows some strategic (or better said: operational!) latitude without becoming a total boring simulation AND without ending in complete absurd constellations (e.g. Panzers in Vladivostok).

Let's agree there is some room for further improvements...


Yes there is huge room for improvement.


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Wuffer)
Post #: 219
RE: Winter 1942/1943 - 12/30/2012 12:54:33 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Pelton,

I disagree with Wuffer: the Axis player can inflict grievous losses on the Soviet spearheads; in the IGO-UGO system the "victorious" Soviet armored stacks are depleted and hurt; with a defensive CV of ~ 15 the Axis can attack at 4-5:1 and put a hurt on. In my game with TD I inflict 3 - 5,000 losses for ~ 1,000; the added benefit is that the units rout or are so hurt they can't attack several turns and it restores the morale balance.

Marquo


Thats simply not true and I have posted it in Kamil/Hoooper/TDV/Hugh and MT and other forums.

You can attack at 4 to 5 to 1 or more or less and route the stacks and the ratio will not be better then 2 to1 most times its around 1 to 1 some times 1 to 2 .

This is true before oct 42, but after that vs up graded units it drops.

It is what it is.

GHC can sit and do nothing an take less retreat loses over 3 loses then a single win more some times.

The truth is wite has had very very few games even get to 1943 so very very little is known about what will happen as wuffer says, its a hugely complex game.

Thats why 2by3 is not going to do anything. One small tweat could really have a huge effect.

wite is great from 1941-1942 which is a huge improvement over what wite was 2 yrs ago.


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 220
RE: Winter 1942/1943 - 12/30/2012 12:59:34 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3240297

Waiting to hear back from 2by3 at this point.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 221
RE: Winter 1942/1943 - 12/30/2012 5:18:33 AM   
Marquo


Posts: 1338
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline
My game wirth TD is now at turn 112/August 1943 - whether you beleive it or not, after he attacks and exposes a juicy, stack of armor I smack it back; I make maybe 2 or 3 such attacks/turn with great effect. I routinely inflict 3 - 5,000 losses per attack at a cost of 1 - 1,500; and his units rout more often than not.

It is what it is.

Marquo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 222
RE: Winter 1942/1943 - 12/30/2012 11:38:01 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

My game wirth TD is now at turn 112/August 1943 - whether you beleive it or not, after he attacks and exposes a juicy, stack of armor I smack it back; I make maybe 2 or 3 such attacks/turn with great effect. I routinely inflict 3 - 5,000 losses per attack at a cost of 1 - 1,500; and his units rout more often than not.

It is what it is.

Marquo


I will take your word for it, throw up a few results in your thread when u have time.

Nice job by the way.


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 223
RE: Winter 1942/1943 - 12/30/2012 1:49:05 PM   
AFV


Posts: 371
Joined: 12/24/2011
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline
Are you two using the exact same version?

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 224
RE: Winter 1942/1943 - 12/30/2012 7:12:54 PM   
Wuffer

 

Posts: 224
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Pelton,

I disagree with Wuffer: the Axis player can inflict grievous losses on the Soviet (armoured) spearheads;
Marquo


Well, maybe I should have expressed myself more clearly; given the 'speed' of operations, a spearhead doesn't mean to consist of weak armoured units, instead in this game it would be a failure as Pelton has proven.
I thought a moment of elaborating my views about Riflecorps, but instead of this, and due to the fact that all this stuff has been repeated several times and therefore was known for a long time, I simply wish all of you happy hollidays .............

--
btw, Marquo, such a strong Germany as yours is not shown so often ...

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 225
December 1942 - 12/30/2012 8:48:19 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
Turn 77--- GHC armaments: 81,000 --------Only 135 turns to go----------


Russian Men OOB: 8,768,000---------Total Loses:4,824,922
Net of: 0,000 ---------------------- Loses this turn:
Russian Gun OOB:122,460
Net of: 1000
Ready Rifle Squads: 44,300 Net change:-1000

GHC OOB: 3,442,000 --------Total Loses:2,117,921
Net of: -28,000----------Loses This Turn:
GHC Gun OOB: 36,905
Net of: -170

覧蘭Won覧沫Lost覧由atio
SHC覧3覧覧11蘭覧21 %
GHC覧0覧覧0覧沫---00%


Air War

Ratio: 18 : 1

GHC loses: 6
SHC loses: 111

Again this turn armaments has increased and men in manpower pool has increased and OOB dropped for no real reason. Combat tempo is very light. 2by3 has saved the last 2 turns hopefully they can figure it out.

Lets hope MT is not cheating some how I would not put it past him.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3240297&mpage=1&key=

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Karri)
Post #: 226
RE: December 1942 - 12/31/2012 6:31:28 AM   
AFV


Posts: 371
Joined: 12/24/2011
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Lets hope MT is not cheating some how I would not put it past him.



I'm gonna call bull **** on that comment.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 227
RE: December 1942 - 12/31/2012 9:49:00 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21046
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline
They are both using 1.06.22. I think this is because Pelton can't upgrade to .23 since we don't have an installer posted yet.

As for cheating, it's way too early to be talking about anyone cheating. I would be shocked and amazed if the only thing that I saw that looked a little odd was anything that someone could find a way to cheat on.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 228
RE: December 1942 - 12/31/2012 10:46:57 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AFV


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Lets hope MT is not cheating some how I would not put it past him.



I'm gonna call bull **** on that comment.



I hear as bad BS is being said about me on other forums so go over there and post how "shocked" you are, unless your another fanboy baby sitting MT like Flaviusx and the rest.

I am not going any wheres or looking for an out as I have told MT in more then one PM.

You think MT was a 12 yr old getting baby sat from the big bad wolf.


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 229
RE: December 1942 - 12/31/2012 10:49:58 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

They are both using 1.06.22. I think this is because Pelton can't upgrade to .23 since we don't have an installer posted yet.

As for cheating, it's way too early to be talking about anyone cheating. I would be shocked and amazed if the only thing that I saw that looked a little odd was anything that someone could find a way to cheat on.


There is for sure "something" going on with the game as I have games at same point with far more combat and none of the pools are growing and OOB's are going up with far more combat.

Its only this game thats got stuff stuck in pools.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 230
RE: December 1942 - 12/31/2012 12:14:02 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3032
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline
Could the difference be that with ur "new" defensive scheme. Putting alot in front lines. Since those units as i understand it, will recieve lot less replacements. Its simply a question of u altering methodes and that therefore it has an effect, that to u, is unseen before?

Kind regards,

Rasmus

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 231
RE: December 1942 - 12/31/2012 4:53:01 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 2109
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AFV


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Lets hope MT is not cheating some how I would not put it past him.



I'm gonna call bull **** on that comment.



It's just another in a long list of excuses.

(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 232
RE: December 1942 - 12/31/2012 9:25:02 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


It's just another in a long list of excuses.




For MT wanting to quit?

I have zero idea what your talking about?

Move on if your going to be a complete moron and yet another MT fanboy.



< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/31/2012 9:32:53 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 233
RE: December 1942 - 12/31/2012 9:31:39 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

Could the difference be that with ur "new" defensive scheme. Putting alot in front lines. Since those units as i understand it, will recieve lot less replacements. Its simply a question of u altering methodes and that therefore it has an effect, that to u, is unseen before?

Kind regards,

Rasmus


Dont think so because I have a game past this point with far more combat and hes winning 66% of the time not 20% of the time attacking 30ish times a turn and the GHC oob is going up and pools are not stuck same system ect ect.

I have over 3.6 million men totally different.


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 234
RE: December 1942 - 1/1/2013 1:30:16 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
?

< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/1/2013 1:40:24 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 235
RE: December 1942 - 1/1/2013 1:39:00 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Turn 78--- GHC armaments: 74,400 --------Only 134 turns to go----------


Russian Men OOB: 8,726,000---------Total Loses:4,879,700
Net of: -30,000 ---------------------- Loses last turn: 57,781
Russian Gun OOB:122,650
Net of: 200
Ready Rifle Squads: 44,314 Net change: 14

GHC OOB: 3,465,000 ----------Total Loses:2,146,846
Net of: +23,000---------------Loses last turn: 28,925
GHC Gun OOB: 37,300
Net of: +400
Men in GHC manpower Pool: 161,500---- 134k in active pool still same as last turn.

覧蘭Won覧沫Lost覧由atio
SHC覧4覧覧10蘭覧28 %
GHC覧4覧覧0覧沫---00%


Air War

Ratio: 20 : 1

GHC loses: 10
SHC loses: 198

Its magic.

This turn OOB went up 23,000 and manpower pool only went down 4k.

Last turn pool increased 10k and OOB dropped 30k.

Losses were about same.

I am going by the turn by turn total loses for now.

This is more in line with what should be going on, unlike the last 18 turns. Things seem to be working magically right now, OOB should increase every turn as it should have been from turns 58 to 76.

I would like and explaination from 2by3 why OOB tanked 104k on turn 58. When loses were no wheres near that high. 40k ish then add in replacements and there is no way OOB should have dropped that much.








_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 236
RE: December 1942 - 1/1/2013 10:30:57 AM   
AFV


Posts: 371
Joined: 12/24/2011
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

I hear as bad BS is being said about me on other forums so go over there and post how "shocked" you are, unless your another fanboy baby sitting MT like Flaviusx and the rest.

I am not going any wheres or looking for an out as I have told MT in more then one PM.

You think MT was a 12 yr old getting baby sat from the big bad wolf.



What a ridiculous response.
1) I did not say I was "shocked". I called bull **** on you. There is quite a difference there.
2) Its one hell of a long ways from having "something going on" (which I don't necessarily disagree with in this case) in a game to insinuating your opponent is cheating.
3) I am not a MT fanboy. I respect both of you as players.
4) I am not sure why you chose to reply to me that you are not going anywhere, etc. I never said, nor implied you were.
5) Don't reply to an imaginary post I didn't make. Let me be clear. You implied MT was cheating. I called bull **** on that, which, if you are unaware, that is a country boy's way of saying you are way wrong and out of line.



(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 237
RE: December 1942 - 1/1/2013 1:55:53 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
Turn 79--- GHC armaments: 66,500 --------Only 133 turns to go----------


Russian Men OOB: 8,687,000---------Total Loses:4,933,571
Net of: -45,000 ---------------------- Loses last turn: 53,871
Russian Gun OOB:122,850
Net of: 200
Ready Rifle Squads: 44,100 Net change: -200

GHC OOB: 3,473,000 ----------Total Loses:2,169,977
Net of: +8,000---------------Loses last turn: 23,131
GHC Gun OOB: 37,450
Net of: +150
Men in GHC manpower Pool: 156,000---- Active pool: 128k.

覧蘭Won覧沫Lost覧由atio
SHC覧3覧覧11蘭覧21 %
GHC覧1覧覧0覧沫---00%


Air War

Ratio: 8 : 1

GHC loses: 15
SHC loses: 124

SHC OOB has dropped 30k, 45k and increases of 23k, 8k last 2 turns in GHC OOB.

Active pool dropping by about 6k per turn last 2 turns, better then going up by 6k a turn for last 20 turns.

2.4 to 1 loss ratio seems to be good as far as dropping SHC OOB and GHC staying static.

The Huns/Fins/Italians have 50K plus of arm/manpower in pools and units simply are not getting replasements still.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/1/2013 2:00:02 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 238
RE: December 1942 - 1/1/2013 2:56:14 PM   
Marquo


Posts: 1338
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline
"2.4 to 1 loss ratio seems to be good as far as dropping SHC OOB and GHC staying static."

Which is why you should smack his exposed wasted post -attack stacks and inflict pain at even higher cost to him as I ma doing with TD.


(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 239
RE: December 1942 - 1/1/2013 3:33:24 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"2.4 to 1 loss ratio seems to be good as far as dropping SHC OOB and GHC staying static."

Which is why you should smack his exposed wasted post -attack stacks and inflict pain at even higher cost to him as I ma doing with TD.




Now that my men stuck in the active manpower pool is slowly changing I can, before I was dropping 30-40k per turn for no reason, now its static.

Allies are screwed up still but hopfully 2by3 can find out why replacements are not moving.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Marquo)
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