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RE: Spring 42

 
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RE: Spring 42 - 11/24/2012 3:49:18 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

9.5.2. Front Line Attrition
Units that begin their turn adjacent to enemy units during their logistics phase will suffer additional attrition losses representing low intensity combat, with approximately one-half to one percent of ground elements in a unit being destroyed (one-half of the manpower is killed and the other half is disabled). Combat attrition losses are dependent on unit morale, the number of ground elements of a certain type in a unit, and the experience level of each type of ground element. The higher unit morale and ground element experience level, the fewer combat attrition
losses. This attrition is in addition to the additional fatigue effects from being adjacent to enemy units (9.4.1).

v1.04.10 - April 18, 2011
Increased front line attrition, but reduced the proportion of these attrition loss that is KIA to 30% (was 50%). The net impact should be similar KIA but an increased amount of manpower disabled due to front line attrition.

v1.05.28 - September 29, 2011
Reduced front line attrition by 30-50%. In addition, Static units will now only suffer half of the normal front line attrition.

Hope it helps,

Rasmus



Thks

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Post #: 91
RE: Spring 42 - 12/6/2012 2:02:22 AM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 57 GHC armaments: 110,000 Turn 54 GHC OOB: 3,840,000

Russian losses this turn: 78,000 Total dead: 3,636,000
Russian OOB: 6,682,000
A net gain of: 00,000

German losses this turn: 60,000 Total dead: 1,592,000
GHC OOB: 3,722,000
A net gain of: 00,000


覧蘭Won覧沫Lost覧由atio
SHC覧7覧覧31蘭覧18%
GHC覧覧覧覧
覧佑ombat losses覧-
SHC覧 114,000
GHC覧 27,000

Casualties losses ratio: 4.1 to 1


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Post #: 92
RE: Spring 42 - 12/6/2012 2:03:46 AM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 58 GHC armaments: 94,000 Turn 54 GHC OOB: 3,840,000

Russian losses this turn: 87,000 Total dead: 3,723,000
Russian gun losses this turn: 00,000 Total dead: 52,838
Russian afv losses this turn: 00,000 Total dead: 13,210

Russian OOB: 6,674,000
A net gain of: -8,000

German losses this turn: 44,000 Total dead: 1,633,000
GHC OOB: 3,706,000
A net gain of: -16,000


覧蘭Won覧沫Lost覧由atio
SHC覧6覧覧21蘭覧22%
GHC覧覧覧覧
覧佑ombat losses覧-
SHC覧 83,000
GHC覧 35,000

Casualties losses ratio: 2.7 to 1
Going by losses turn to turn ratio: 2 to 1

Looks like armaments will be limiting factor. I am starting the change over this turn so it will be a while before its impact is felt if any.





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Post #: 93
RE: Spring 42 - 12/6/2012 2:04:37 AM   
Pelton

 

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Battles




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Post #: 94
RE: Summer 42 - 12/6/2012 2:06:07 AM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 59 GHC armaments: 60,000 Turn 54 GHC OOB: 3,840,000

Russian perma losses this turn: 98,757 Total lost: 3,723,000
Russian disabled this turn: 71,211 Total disabled:1,782,166
Total losses this turn from disabled perma( 1/2%) and perma lost: 134,362
Russian gun losses this turn: 1140
Russian afv losses this turn: 331

Russian Men OOB: 6,680,000
Net of: + 6,000
Russian Gun OOB:105,129
Net of: - 1208

German losses this turn: 44,000 Total dead: 1,677,000

GHC OOB: 3,610,000 Rifle Squads: 45,796 Net change: ?
Net of: -104,000
GHC Gun OOB: 38,610
Net of: - 263

覧蘭Won覧沫Lost覧由atio
SHC覧5覧覧32蘭覧13%
GHC覧2覧覧0覧沫100%

Permanent loss from game ratio is 3.83:1

German - killed 25,150; pow 434; change in disabled 18,756; actual disabled casualties caused in the turn ~29,500. All disabled will return eventually. Total permanent losses = 25,584

Soviet - killed 61,034; pow 1,338; change in disabled 53,390; actual disabled casualties caused in the turn ~71,400. 1/2 of disabled will return eventually, others will be permanent loss. Total permanent removed from game = 98,067

I started putting in a new defense vs soaking attacks last turn and the results are impressive to say the least. Below is the battles results, as you can see some massive 6 to 1 results in several battles. You can do the math yourself.

I am very grateful to the person who figured this out. At this time they wish to be unnamed.

I will post one of the battles in detail.





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Post #: 95
RE: Summer 42 - 12/6/2012 2:19:27 AM   
Pelton

 

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Battles

There are 3 battles over a single hex.

1 hex was attacked 3 times
2 hexs were attacked 4 times

All 3 held and with huge SHC loses. Generally the hex is bombed 3 to 5 times, then 1 or 2 deliberate attacks by 6 infantry divisions. Fresh units each time. The SHC sends in 4-6 Corp and whatever divisions they can send in.

Dam massive assaults, but because of The Unnamed's set-up even vs massive hordes of russians 2 Rum and 1 German division can hold inflicting 6.5 to 1 losses.


In the example I am posting 2 Rum and 1 German division held out vs 4 attacks






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Post #: 96
The Unnamed - 12/6/2012 2:24:16 AM   
Pelton

 

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Round 1

The hex is defended by 8th Rum,10th Rum and 50th German infantry division.


The hex is bombed 2 times then 6 rifle divisions attack and lose.




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Post #: 97
RE: The Unnamed - 12/6/2012 2:26:03 AM   
Pelton

 

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Round 2

Several Cav Corp and 4 fresh infantry divisions assault and are driven back.




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Post #: 98
RE: The Unnamed - 12/6/2012 2:28:02 AM   
Pelton

 

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Round 3

A fresh Cav Corp and more fresh infantry assault and are again driven back.




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Post #: 99
RE: The Unnamed - 12/6/2012 2:32:31 AM   
Pelton

 

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Ding ding round 4

WTH more fresh units!!!!!!!!!!

Again the Rumanians with a little help from Germans send the Red Hordes packing!!!

hhehehe The Rumanian units morale went up 3 points each hehehehe

The Unnamed




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/6/2012 2:33:22 AM >


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Post #: 100
RE: The Unnamed - 12/6/2012 2:41:35 AM   
Pelton

 

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On a roll. I picked this one out because Guards Infantry Corp attacked plus other hordes of men.

First off the hex is pounded 6 times by hordes of red planes.

Which is ok because more poeple died in plane crashes then poeple killed by the bombs they dropped

Round 1 6 rifle Divisions plus a bunch of support attack an suffer massive loses

GHC 603 SHC 5182




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Post #: 101
RE: The Unnamed - 12/6/2012 2:43:30 AM   
Pelton

 

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Ding Ding round 2.

A fresh horde advances to be slaughtered.

GHC 722 SHC 5961






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Post #: 102
RE: The Unnamed - 12/6/2012 2:48:05 AM   
Pelton

 

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Ding Ding Round 3.

I guess MT was getting pissed off and attacked with several Guards Rifle Corps and other Infantry Corp.

A massive red horde of 200,000 attacks with a horde of SU's and still they are sent packing.

GHC 822 SHC 3916

The Unnamed






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Post #: 103
RE: Fields of Red Blood - 12/6/2012 3:13:54 AM   
Pelton

 

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One thing thats helping is my over all army morale is at peak 1941 levels. Infantry,Mot,Panzer and SU morale is sweet.

This should be huge by 1943 when the German army findly gets equipment as good as Red Horde.

With the very poor 18% win ratio my units morale is still going UP!!!!!

The Unnamed Defence is really helping up losses. My rifle squads is going up dispite the heavey fighting.

Panzer divisions are at 80% toe and so far tank replasements out pase losses.
Mot divisions are all over 90% toe.
Only a dozen rifle divisions are under 80% toe with most over 90%.

The fighting is over just a few hexes per turn so its easy to rotate out units.

I am now putting together a small army to use as a fire brigade. 9 high morale infantry and 3 Mot. The man Model in charge.

I can use these units as a counter to a bulge by splitting 2 divisions into regiments and set them in 6 hexes ( 3 more if needed) then use the rest of the units to react. Also you can use the armys near the bulge to split units into hexes.

This way you get reserves reactions 100% of the time and fire support from several different Corp and Army HQ's all at once.

The other big plus you will have to figure out on your own.



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Post #: 104
RE: Fields of Red Blood - 12/6/2012 3:25:19 AM   
Pelton

 

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I beleive based on feed back from Red friends that I am causing more then heavey enough arm pt loses coupled with the fact of upgrades for SHC.

SHC morale is stuck at 50 at best. The loss ratio is really amazing poor I have never seen anything like it. 18% turn after turn.

Last turn SHC gun totals dropped more then front line loses. not sure if thats a trend or not.

I still have 1000's of 88's to get to the front lines.
I still have 5 more armys to fully set-up in def mode.
I still have allot more units to put in static mode to help lower losses.

Only time will tell for sure if the lose ratio is enough. The 42/43 winter should be interesting. I will have to start building a 43 river line soon also.



< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/6/2012 3:47:36 AM >


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Post #: 105
RE: Fields of Red Blood - 12/6/2012 4:02:01 AM   
Klydon


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Those are some brutal losses for the Russians for sure. He can afford 2-3 to 1, but not 6 to 1 and not with what it is doing to the moral situation for both sides. It will be interesting to see how the tactic you are using will hold up over the long haul. Michael is a smart player and I am sure he will come up with some new idea, but he has really been wrecking his moral at this point as well.


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Post #: 106
RE: Fields of Red Blood - 12/6/2012 5:22:10 AM   
Saper222


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Fantastic defend!
Soviet the first attack of strong fort hex be only 2-3 recon attack (1 regiment ore division) and after massiv assault. Air ground support not good 200 fighters and 40 bombers - nice 200 bombers and 40 fighters.
I win all game Soviet in 1942 - have not problem to assault fort level 4 hex - be interesting see, how Pelton do this

< Message edited by Saper222 -- 12/6/2012 10:32:26 AM >

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Post #: 107
RE: Fields of Red Blood - 12/6/2012 9:34:14 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
I still have 1000's of 88's to get to the front lines.
I still have 5 more armys to fully set-up in def mode.
I still have allot more units to put in static mode to help lower losses.

Only time will tell for sure if the lose ratio is enough. The 42/43 winter should be interesting. I will have to start building a 43 river line soon also.


Yes, build fort belts and entrenchments whenever you have units you're able to detach for rearward duty and AP for fort zones. The defensive works are on simple way to shift ratios more to the defenders favor, and more reliable than reserve actions or such. Btw., your reserve actions -- does Michael suck them up in the initial binding-type assaults with his poorer IDs? Or do the reserves come in smarter?

I have followed your loss rate discussions in Michaels AARs, but to be honest -- there is always still dice involved, so maybe the result will diverge substantially from your theoretical values there. You'll get more disabled back than the Russian, and the Russian manpower (factor) will decline, so if you can survive until mid-44, Michael's attrition strategy could flounder.
Chances are unlikely, I fear. I think you can make his walk a very painful and slow one, but stopping him cold would require very favorable dice gods. It's be surprised, though -- in terms of game balance, this one in my opinion should one to be clearly won by a Red opponent, with a major victory, or at least a clear-cut minor one. If saving half the trip to Berlin, and retaining huge numbers of manpower centers (damaged and even many undamaged), and being unmolested for 2 years building your army wouldn't help, it would very much puzzle me. Not sure how you think about it when viewing it from your opponents perspective...

< Message edited by janh -- 12/6/2012 9:35:54 AM >

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RE: Fields of Red Blood - 12/6/2012 11:27:44 AM   
juret

 

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1. are u building any forts behind the lines pelton?

2. whut are u using your AP to now? and the next year? (42--->43)

3. hows the moral affected by winning defensive battles for the GHC inf divisions in the front getting attacked?

< Message edited by juret -- 12/6/2012 11:30:08 AM >

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Post #: 109
RE: Fields of Red Blood - 12/6/2012 12:11:52 PM   
Flaviusx


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Michael's attrition strategy will not flounder past 43. Once he has all his rifle corps and arty divisions the Wehrmacht will be ground to powder.

It is floundering now because he is prematurely trying to get the Red Army to be an offensive instrument of war and throwing away a lot of stuff for very little effect. Were I him, I would cool my heels until 43. He just doesn't have the chops to shift a well executed German defense. He's burning away men and armaments for no reason imo. The men he can afford, the armaments not so much.

For all of that his situation is so favorable that it may not matter very much in the end.

He is just too impatient. The 1942 Red Army has very little offensive ooomph.

_____________________________

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Post #: 110
RE: Fields of Red Blood - 12/6/2012 12:47:52 PM   
Wuffer

 

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Let him happily attack, Flavius.



I doubt the 'strategic' value of this verdun-ized actions, too, the virtual reincarnation of Falkenhayn's ideas (??) degrates the red army as a sparring partner.
But this would be forgotten in one or two years... when the arty divisions appear.

The german infantry has a lot of organic (and historical obsolate btw) arty, which is quite expensive to rebuilt after retreats.
So, blabla, let's see if history repeats itself as a hopefully entertaining farce...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlxozJh2JNo

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Post #: 111
RE: Fields of Red Blood - 12/6/2012 2:29:57 PM   
Klydon


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The artillery divisions will take time to assemble. Rocket brigades pack a disgusting amount of firepower as well and may help speed things up from the Russian stand point of view, but they also take awhile to fill out, no mater how many rocket launchers are in the pool.

Clearly this game is not one the designers had in mind when they put the game together, so it is going to be interesting to see the results and I think it just highlights why sudden death victory conditions are needed for both sides.

I am hearten to see some of the losses the Russians are having trying to assault good defensive positions. There are far too many accounts of the Russians suffering heavy casualties making repeated attacks and in general, the casualty ratio doesn't really reflect what historically happen from a weaker defending German army, let alone one this strong. Now if we can just get some of the casualty ratios fixed from 42 on for when the Germans attack. While this all may sound "pro-German" (and it is) I am pretty neutral as far as a "side" and the Russians have a lot that needs to be addressed with them including manpower issues in 41 that leave them unable to take the beating they took historically among other things.

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Post #: 112
RE: Fields of Red Blood - 12/6/2012 5:00:19 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Michael's attrition strategy will not flounder past 43. Once he has all his rifle corps and arty divisions the Wehrmacht will be ground to powder.

It is floundering now because he is prematurely trying to get the Red Army to be an offensive instrument of war and throwing away a lot of stuff for very little effect. Were I him, I would cool my heels until 43. He just doesn't have the chops to shift a well executed German defense. He's burning away men and armaments for no reason imo. The men he can afford, the armaments not so much.

For all of that his situation is so favorable that it may not matter very much in the end.

He is just too impatient. The 1942 Red Army has very little offensive ooomph.


Kamil waited as he should have to build up a Manpower pool in the millions and 100,000's of arms. He attacked in 42 - mid 43 10-12 times at most winning about 60% of the time, causing more losses then MT's 25-40 attacks. He used much smarter tactics. Then in late 43 started Grinding and it did not take long after rivers frooze to grind down German Army.

Now my defences are much better and he probably would not have been able to do much of anything until late 43 anyways. I was not even using reserve mode at the time or the new set-up. I think he would have won out anyways because my over-all morale was much lower, because he had a good blizzard and I did not run. So his January 45 win would more then likely be delayed 4-8 turns 12 at most.

I figured from the start that MT is a little impressed with himself and would try this WW1 tactic to try and get game over with asap. But he is delaying his RED army 2.0 more and more with each wastefull attack. The trend is hes winning less and less for more and more holds. I am not 50% set-up so I expect his losses to keep climbing. The Unnamed is 75% set-up in a 1943 game and hes getting a constant ratio of 4.5 to 1 every turn. I am climbing from 2.7 to 1 to 3.7 to 1 as I change over.

The key will be as with Kamil setting up a short river line by spring 1943. So disspite the Corp upgrades the hexes exposed to attacks will be few and the grinding limited and rifle squads static. Kamil had 10 million men, but it took a long time to get the steamroller going.

I have allot more men, better moral and a much better defence this time around. The only thing is I have less space. I flipped all the same cities other then Leningrad with MT. The manpower MT is getting is slightly more then what Kamil was getting.

In 1943 I receive new - returns = + 250,000 more fresh men in new divisions, so grinding down GHC during 1943 is unlikely as per all my 43-44 games. The morale was what cripplies the GHC. There is a tipping point where OOB is fine, but moral cracks and even if you had 4 million men the steam roller gets going and can't be stopped. As per my TDV and Hoooper (1v1=2v1) games.

Your right Flaviusx he will grind me down, but the question is when.

Right now as long as he keeps wasting arm pts on junk formations and delaying his upgrades, he is delaying the time when he will crack the moral threshold. Because my moral is going up.

SHC is 18 wins 84 loses the last 3 turns. Hopefully he keeps attacking !!!




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Post #: 113
RE: Fields of Red Blood - 12/6/2012 5:18:52 PM   
Pelton

 

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The lines are about 90 hexes long with a good part on a major river and more on minor rivers. North of marsh I have 3 to 4 deep of Forts building. Front is lvl 3 mostly and 2nd line lvl 2.

Down near bend I have 2 lines deep starting work on a 3rd. I am manning the 2nd line with reserve mode units and 3-4 with forts/diggers. I have cut back on forts allot the last 3 turns. I would like to be atleast 5 deep by December with the summer 43 line under construction. I am now organizing digging Corp of junk units to speed up construstion.

AP right now are at 200. I leave it there so I can activate static units as needed. I will get that to 400 by december so 50 divisions can be released in a single turn if needed.

I am spending it on reorangation mostly to get the ratio in the 4.5 range asap.

Once I am mostly reorganized then I spend some on forts 2 to 4 per turn moving leaders around.



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Post #: 114
RE: Fields of Red Blood - 12/6/2012 5:44:16 PM   
Kamil

 

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Oh Pelton, Pelton. It is least entertaining game ever and in my opinion if Michael plays it right he will be in Berlin before end of '44.


I think it is unfair of You to push him to play this out.

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RE: Fields of Red Blood - 12/6/2012 10:13:43 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil

Oh Pelton, Pelton. It is least entertaining game ever and in my opinion if Michael plays it right he will be in Berlin before end of '44.


I think it is unfair of You to push him to play this out.


Mybee, but for sure you were much better then him at this point.

You would go 10 and 5, 10 and 6 ect ect and get the very same results with out wasteing 40,000 to 50,000 armament points.

Kamil your a very good SHC player.

MT is a big boy you don't need to feel sorry for him.

Grasping for straws?

Things not going as planned?
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3228213

The reserves help, but they are not all thats causing the fields to run red with russian blood.

Guessing hes hoping 2by3 will save him?




< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/6/2012 10:53:33 PM >


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RE: Fields of Red Blood - 12/6/2012 11:10:15 PM   
carlkay58

 

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This is an interesting game. It is a totally off-the-wall play on Pelton's part and is probably going to be a very unique game because of it. Of course, if Pelton is able to pull it off, then this MAY be the future of the Axis strategy . . .

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RE: Fields of Red Blood - 12/7/2012 12:17:44 AM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

This is an interesting game. It is a totally off-the-wall play on Pelton's part and is probably going to be a very unique game because of it. Of course, if Pelton is able to pull it off, then this MAY be the future of the Axis strategy . . .



Nah, it won't work in the long run. Michael just has to sit tight and wait for the real Red Army to show up.

Of course, if he keeps battering himself to pieces with his 42 Red Army, then this will merely delay the transition over to the 2.0 version.

Pelton is just taking advantage of the fact that Michael is temperamentally an offensively minded player and itching to attack. Pelton himself knows how to put together a good German defense, which is relatively rare even now. He's cashing in on his extensive late war Axis playing experience.

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to carlkay58)
Post #: 118
RE: Fields of Red Blood - 12/7/2012 12:58:32 AM   
sjohnson

 

Posts: 120
Joined: 12/17/2007
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Flavius - you've hit the nail on the head in both threads. So I am the one that sent Pelton a few friendly PMs with some tactical advice on how to organize - note though nothing specific at all about Michael's tactics and position, etc; just some friendly pointers from someone who plays almost exclusive late war WitE (on both sides). I know that's a rarity isn't it? Everyone seems to like to run all around the map in 41 and then games seem to end and no one knows how to really defend so I think then this is why things break down, and, defending in WitE is quite challenging actually for the primary reason that it is 1-week turns which means large movement allowances (especially for mech units) strategically magnifies the impact of the initiative and in the "tactical" battle side allows the attacker to make multiple attacks on a single location while the defender has no chance to respond.

It really is no big secret how to defend; it is amazing to me how seldom folks really pick up on the few big "tricks"; which really aren't tricks, actually they are only applications of the same principles that govern defense in real life.

(1) massing of firepower supports - in game terms this means maximizing support unit commitment.
(2) counterattacking and moving troops to counter local breakthroughs - in games terms this means reserve commitment of on map units.

Making these effective means proper distribution of support and reserve assets relative to the presumed threatened locations. Furthermore it means efficient C3I which is an organizational and intelligence exercise to both position assets and also be able to employ firepower at the points of contact in a timely fashion.

What does that mean in game? It means recon the enemy to know where his troops are massing; counting MP expenditures the enemy is likely to need to make to attack certain points; in this way you get your troops in the right spot. Then making them react is a matter of efficient organization and maximizing the chance of leaders passing various skill rolls. In the game this means - ensuring high initiative leaders are in charge of the battle; it means paying attention to CP limits (each 1 CP over limit approx 9% less chance to pass a roll); it means paying attention to support squads in HQs (yes, low support squads impacts leaders skills as best I can tell); it means correctly sizing reserve elements (regiments work best). I can go on and on, but, you know this already. It ain't rocket science and it makes a highly experienced and well led German army a tough nut to crack, even late in the war if played correctly.

Both defending and attacking someone defending in this manner require something a lot of players seem to lack - patience and a general attention to extreme detail. The Germans have to do it on the defense to not be bled to death and the Soviets have to do it on the attack to properly attrition the Germans. Yep, attritional warfare is boring, but, more often than not it wins - and history is replete with examples.

I have to give Pelton a lot of credit - I just tossed a few pointers his way and his usual zealous fashion he is applying them in game. Kudos to him if it helps produce a more realistic tactical result! Strategically though Pelton is in a bind and he has admitted it in this thread - he has little space to trade so there is a certain rigidity imposed on his defense. This is not good in the long run against the Red Army.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 119
RE: Fields of Red Blood - 12/7/2012 2:49:55 AM   
Pelton

 

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Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

This is an interesting game. It is a totally off-the-wall play on Pelton's part and is probably going to be a very unique game because of it. Of course, if Pelton is able to pull it off, then this MAY be the future of the Axis strategy . . .



Nah, it won't work in the long run. Michael just has to sit tight and wait for the real Red Army to show up.

Of course, if he keeps battering himself to pieces with his 42 Red Army, then this will merely delay the transition over to the 2.0 version.

Pelton is just taking advantage of the fact that Michael is temperamentally an offensively minded player and itching to attack. Pelton himself knows how to put together a good German defense, which is relatively rare even now. He's cashing in on his extensive late war Axis playing experience.


I was a poor defender, but got to the point of being good by the end of Kamils game.

With a bunch of pointers from SJ I am very good now. In my other 3 games with this new over all defensive strategy I am very sure I have 2 wins and a 50/50 shot at a draw/minor win, because of space-less SHC manpower. I can set-up defences that will best limit SHC areas to attack so I cant be ground down until late 1944 early 1945.

Its a real time sink to get things set-up right, but once its set-up right. Turns will flip quickly and be injoyable. I still have hope of a draw, the key will be 42/43 winter and 43/44 winter.

I basicly have to keep line static until summer 43, if I can do that then I can pick a good river line to defend 44 summer.

I just really don't know how long my morale will stay peaked.

_____________________________

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GHC WitW 0 - 0 - 0

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(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 120
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