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RE: Back up and running in a few days.

 
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RE: Back up and running in a few days. - 1/30/2013 12:19:58 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

... I'm able to draw fuel/oil to Fusan no problem, but I'm unable to stockpile resources at Fusan and it's becoming a problem. I wonder if expanding Keijo's and Port Arthur's HI upset things. It seems every major port in China and Korea has over 100k of resources available, but Fusan is at 0 and I seem to be drawing only what is produced daily. I'm 96% to a level 8 port so hopefully that will increase the resource draw away from Port Arthur and Keijo.

Getting Pusan to Port Lvl 8 will help (a lot). Building anything at PA, Shanghai, HK, Keijo, or Singers (essentially any port along the Chinese continent) will hurt (a little).

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Post #: 451
RE: Back up and running in a few days. - 1/30/2013 9:31:26 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I have fuel over 200k at Port Arthur. So I do have some large amounts stockpiled and just awaiting export to Japan. I'm able to draw fuel/oil to Fusan no problem, but I'm unable to stockpile resources at Fusan and it's becoming a problem. I wonder if expanding Keijo's and Port Arthur's HI upset things. It seems every major port in China and Korea has over 100k of resources available, but Fusan is at 0 and I seem to be drawing only what is produced daily. I'm 96% to a level 8 port so hopefully that will increase the resource draw away from Port Arthur and Keijo.

Thinking in terms of fuel use, I'm very wasteful. I always use more transports than is necessary to move troops around. I will begin to reduce the amount of shipping used to only what is required for non-amphibious operations in rear areas. Worrying about the possible destruction of fuel/oil from Palembang has at least made me look at ways to conserve fuel and be more efficient.



I try not to take fuel/oil out of Manchuria on the advice of Mike and Pax. They pointed out that the area would eventually run out of surplus for the industry and then you'd have to ship it there. It's proving true in late 43-44.

There are useful things in the ships section (I think) of tracker that deal with efficiency of all of the ships. Of course the bigger their capacity the more efficient, but for some reason the Kyushu's seem to be far above the rest. If only there were more of those!

For convoys the Cribtop lifeboat strategy works well. So use the minimum number to haul the troops, then add one after loading to catch troops should something get torpedoed on the way. Also the bigger the ships the more likely they'll survive the hits. I've found the Yusens, Kyushus and Limas to survive one hit most of the time and make it back to port.

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/30/2013 9:34:48 AM >


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Post #: 452
RE: Further comment - 1/30/2013 2:09:32 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I've also decided to expand a number of LI factories in the Home Islands. I've always tinkered with the idea of this and it seems like the kind of game to try some new things. This obviously is a long term investment and won't pay dividends until early 1945. I'm not going to go crazy here, maybe just enough LI to compensate for the loss of some HI centres I expect to lose sooner than later throughout the Empire.



Just to put it into perspective, if you increase 1 LI factory today, it'll break even on 9 Jan 45.

Yeah, in stock scenarios there just is no economic justification to expand LI. That 1000 supply could have been used (or saved) somewhere else. Helping to keep a base over 20K to allow upgrades for example ....


Hmm, I'm going to disagree with both Mike Solli and PaxMondo who are reiterating the commonly accepted wisdom.

For years I have seen the statement that it takes 1000 days to start to get a positive ROI. That is a quite simplistic statement which is not correct. It fails to take into account externalities which are not immediately visible to a player. It fails to properly take into account opportunity cost associated with the externalities; instead everyone just focuses on the direct opportunity cost. In the overall scheme of things the externalities are often far more important than the direct, narrow issues which players focus on when stating that it requires 1000 days to break even.

Then there is also the issue that in military matters, sometimes the best and most devastating to the enemy actions to take are not the economically most efficient ones.

Alfred

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 453
RE: Back up and running in a few days. - 1/30/2013 2:34:03 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
There will be no more talk of expanding LI in this AAR


Gah! Sorry about that, SqzMyLemon!

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Post #: 454
RE: Further comment - 1/30/2013 5:04:56 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I've also decided to expand a number of LI factories in the Home Islands. I've always tinkered with the idea of this and it seems like the kind of game to try some new things. This obviously is a long term investment and won't pay dividends until early 1945. I'm not going to go crazy here, maybe just enough LI to compensate for the loss of some HI centres I expect to lose sooner than later throughout the Empire.



Just to put it into perspective, if you increase 1 LI factory today, it'll break even on 9 Jan 45.

Yeah, in stock scenarios there just is no economic justification to expand LI. That 1000 supply could have been used (or saved) somewhere else. Helping to keep a base over 20K to allow upgrades for example ....


Hmm, I'm going to disagree with both Mike Solli and PaxMondo who are reiterating the commonly accepted wisdom.

For years I have seen the statement that it takes 1000 days to start to get a positive ROI. That is a quite simplistic statement which is not correct. It fails to take into account externalities which are not immediately visible to a player. It fails to properly take into account opportunity cost associated with the externalities; instead everyone just focuses on the direct opportunity cost. In the overall scheme of things the externalities are often far more important than the direct, narrow issues which players focus on when stating that it requires 1000 days to break even.

Then there is also the issue that in military matters, sometimes the best and most devastating to the enemy actions to take are not the economically most efficient ones.

Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
There will be no more talk of expanding LI in this AAR


Gah! Sorry about that, SqzMyLemon!


First off, I think expanding LI can provide pretty decent returns if invested in from day one. I agree with Alfred that there is more to increasing LI than just looking at it in terms of spending 1000 supply/point and that it will take three years to fully pay off the investment. I think you start seeing returns well before that and I'll explain below. Both Erik and Andre have made comments previously that makes me think they also agree there could be some merit to increasing LI to compensate for losing HI centres and reduced fuel available to run HI in the late game.

I've invested heavily in aircraft R&D and don't feel at this stage I can also expand LI to any large degree. Therefore, I've decided not to expand LI this game, because I think it's too late to expand it in the kind of numbers that will make a difference.

Here's my take:

I believe Japan has a supply surplus of somewhere between 20k-25k at game start. For simplicity I'll go with a 20k surplus.

If I was to expand LI, lets start with expanding 20 LI factories one point per day. So that would be 20 new LI production points at a cost of 20k supply. I would do this for 5 months until the end of April 1942. Let's assume 30.5 days/month (I know Feb screws that up). So, in 30.5 days I've created 610 new LI points. Over the 5 month period I've increased this number to 3050 new LI points. I now stop expanding LI. So here are the numbers:

20 LI/day expansion costs 20k supply/day

20 LI/day x 30.5 days = 610 new LI points (cost in supply = 610k)

610 LI/day x 5 months = 3050 new LI points (cost in supply = 3,050,000)

Lets say we're all repaired and running by the end of April. So, after the first year you'll produce supply from these expanded LI factories to the tune of 1,116,300 supply/year.

3050 LI x 30.5 days x 12 months = 1,116,300 supply.

So by May 1943 you've recovered 36% of your initial 3,050,000 supply cost to expand LI.

By May 1944 you've recovered another 36% for a grand total of 2,232,600 supply.

By May 1945 you've theoretically recovered all 3,050,000 supply spent in your initial investment.

So after all is said and done you've increased Japan's supply production potential by 3050 LI factories producing 3050 supply/day by May 1945. That's an increase of 15.25% of the original supply surplus.

What about resources? Well, 610 LI factories will require an additional 9150 resources/day or 279,075 resources/month.

The question of whether to expand LI in the Home Islands or China needs to be answered. I think you do a combination of both. If you choose Japan you must factor in the fuel cost of importing the extra resources over and above what is already required to run the economy with no expansion.

China makes a lot of sense. It's swimming in resources and requires no fuel expenditure unless you decide to export supply to Japan. Your expanded supply centres should last a long time safe from Allied bombing or recapture.

I'm not a statistics or economic guru and my analysis is simplistic. I'm not accounting for all the variables applicable to how the LI expansion was conducted. Just from my example there's an increase of 3050 supply generated per day in either Japan, China or a combination of both by May 1945 requiring no fuel to produce other than that used in transporting any additional resources needed in the Home Islands. Another thing is you don't have to wait until May 1945 to have been receiving the benefit. Who knows how that supply you've recovered may best be used over the next three years and what a boon to possibly have an extra 1000-3000 supply per day in 1945 after investing way back in 1942, which is the time you can most afford to.

I totally agree with Alfred that the benefits of expanding LI shouldn't simply be reduced to the argument that it costs 1000 supply points and takes three years to break even so don't do it. Depending on your strategy and how you prefer to expand you economy or focus on R&D, I think expanding LI could play a major role in the late game. As far as I know it's never been tried, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't have a major impact on Japan's ability to last after the fuel and oil is gone.

Just my thoughts. Please feel free to point out anything I haven't accounted for or if I've made errors in my simple calculations.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 1/30/2013 8:43:26 PM >


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Post #: 455
RE: Further comment - 1/30/2013 5:13:32 PM   
obvert


Posts: 6834
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I've also decided to expand a number of LI factories in the Home Islands. I've always tinkered with the idea of this and it seems like the kind of game to try some new things. This obviously is a long term investment and won't pay dividends until early 1945. I'm not going to go crazy here, maybe just enough LI to compensate for the loss of some HI centres I expect to lose sooner than later throughout the Empire.



Just to put it into perspective, if you increase 1 LI factory today, it'll break even on 9 Jan 45.

Yeah, in stock scenarios there just is no economic justification to expand LI. That 1000 supply could have been used (or saved) somewhere else. Helping to keep a base over 20K to allow upgrades for example ....


Hmm, I'm going to disagree with both Mike Solli and PaxMondo who are reiterating the commonly accepted wisdom.

For years I have seen the statement that it takes 1000 days to start to get a positive ROI. That is a quite simplistic statement which is not correct. It fails to take into account externalities which are not immediately visible to a player. It fails to properly take into account opportunity cost associated with the externalities; instead everyone just focuses on the direct opportunity cost. In the overall scheme of things the externalities are often far more important than the direct, narrow issues which players focus on when stating that it requires 1000 days to break even.

Then there is also the issue that in military matters, sometimes the best and most devastating to the enemy actions to take are not the economically most efficient ones.

Alfred


Please pardon the foray back into this Joseph, but I think Alfred's comments could be really interesting if I actually could get my head around what he is saying.

Alfred, in a more concrete example-based method, could you explain what situations you feel warrant the increase of LI for the Japanese and at what date would you cease from doing so? How much would you increase it and what is the upper limit for this? What do you mean by externalities and opportunity cost?

My take on it is simply that although it takes a lot of supply at first, unless I'm playing a mod that gives more stuff and less supply output, after it's increased it then produces more each day and thus gives you more to play with in the moment as well as making up the total spent by the end. I've only increased it a small amount though, so I'm interested if you've explored this further in a game to 45 with Japan.

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Post #: 456
RE: Further comment - 1/30/2013 5:19:18 PM   
obvert


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Thanks for laying that out Joseph. Very clear. It is a LOT of supply used, isn't it, if you do that much. Tough when at home you're only getting 27k a day surplus to run everything.

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Post #: 457
RE: Further comment - 1/30/2013 5:49:33 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Please pardon the foray back into this Joseph, but I think Alfred's comments could be really interesting if I actually could get my head around what he is saying.


Not at all Erik. I think this is an important discussion and feel it should be explored fully. Post away.

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Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

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Post #: 458
RE: Further comment - 1/30/2013 6:37:39 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Thanks for laying that out Joseph. Very clear. It is a LOT of supply used, isn't it, if you do that much. Tough when at home you're only getting 27k a day surplus to run everything.


I thought it was about time to post some numbers to play around with as a starting point. Of course the numbers can be adjusted and expanding by 20 LI points per day is maybe a stretch, but you get the idea.

I think it ultimately comes down to the kind of player you are and your long term strategy. Plan on being very aggressive and perhaps expanding LI is not a good idea. Plan on expanding naval, merchant, armaments, vehicle factories while producing a lot of aircraft and R&D investment and maybe expanding LI is not a good idea. Plan on playing a conservative game with Japan with minimal expansion and war production then LI expansion might make a lot of sense. I believe some combination of the above may be the best strategy, it all comes down to what you want and how to best manage your limited resources to achieve your goals. I don't believe there is a right and wrong here, but I no longer believe it is something that "just shouldn't be done" anymore.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 1/30/2013 8:25:20 PM >


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Post #: 459
RE: Back up and running in a few days. - 1/30/2013 8:41:01 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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From: Alberta, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

I try not to take fuel/oil out of Manchuria on the advice of Mike and Pax. They pointed out that the area would eventually run out of surplus for the industry and then you'd have to ship it there. It's proving true in late 43-44.


I agree. I don't export the Port Arthur fuel to Japan either, but I do export the oil in small numbers. Granted, in my last PBEM I had captured Lanchow and Sian quite early so I had more fuel/oil to play with and I had no shortages on the mainland up to March 1943. I mentioned the Port Arthur fuel just to provide an example of a ready stockpile if an infusion was needed for the Home Islands.


_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

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Post #: 460
RE: Further comment - 1/31/2013 3:12:07 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


Hmm, I'm going to disagree with both Mike Solli and PaxMondo who are reiterating the commonly accepted wisdom.

For years I have seen the statement that it takes 1000 days to start to get a positive ROI. That is a quite simplistic statement which is not correct. It fails to take into account externalities which are not immediately visible to a player. It fails to properly take into account opportunity cost associated with the externalities; instead everyone just focuses on the direct opportunity cost. In the overall scheme of things the externalities are often far more important than the direct, narrow issues which players focus on when stating that it requires 1000 days to break even.

Then there is also the issue that in military matters, sometimes the best and most devastating to the enemy actions to take are not the economically most efficient ones.

Alfred

Alfred,

Always interested to hear a new view. Lay it out for us. I'm not aware of any external opportunity to mitigate the simple ROI calc which does not account for interest involved nor lost opportunity cost both of which would increase the 1000 days fairly consequentially.




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Post #: 461
RE: Further comment - 1/31/2013 3:16:50 AM   
PaxMondo


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Joseph,

Can't see you coming up with 1M supply at a time that you are already short of supply (while expanding) to improve your supply in the late game when should have accumulated +4M supply by '45.  But that's just me.

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Post #: 462
RE: Further comment - 1/31/2013 4:17:05 AM   
SqzMyLemon


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From: Alberta, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Joseph,

Can't see you coming up with 1M supply at a time that you are already short of supply (while expanding) to improve your supply in the late game when should have accumulated +4M supply by '45.  But that's just me.


No problem Pax. I have no experience of the end game so if it's possible for Japan to stockpile around 4 million supply in the Home Islands by 45, I'll take your word for it. My experience goes only as far as my last AAR which was early 43. Until then, I just have to wing it with my theories until proven otherwise.

_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

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Post #: 463
RE: Further comment - 1/31/2013 11:01:04 PM   
PaxMondo


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Hey, anyone can do whatever they want in the game.  It's a game, right?  Heck, you can transport fuel to a base and then let your opponent take it if you want.  But having said that you can do something doesn't mean it is the most efficient thing you can do. 

In this case; I'm pretty good with numbers and Mike is a 30 year professional at this, and the result of the analysis is that it is a very weak economic impetus to build LI.  Doesn't mean don't do it, just means you have to look for other reasons than economic to rationalize it.  No big deal.

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Pax

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Post #: 464
RE: Further comment - 2/1/2013 2:45:03 AM   
SqzMyLemon


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Both my games have hit a lull. I just want to get the turns flowing again. Too much time to think.

_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 465
RE: Further comment - 2/1/2013 3:33:22 AM   
PaxMondo


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Better than me.  I got to Feb 42 in my most recent attempt and then RL hit me again.  Haven't had 30 contiguous minutes in 3 weeks to look at it ... Prolly have to start over again.  The next 10 weeks are going to be very busy.  Oh well.

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Post #: 466
April 12/42 Update - 2/1/2013 4:38:53 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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The war resumes, but the pace will remain sporadic until Jocke is settled into his new home and can establish a regular routine. Here's what happened today.

April 12/42:

Port Blair:

The 21st Division gets a day of rest to recover disruption. Betty's bomb the airbase to prevent fort construction. Another deliberate attack is ordered for tomorrow.

Java:

The first deliberate attack against Batavia achieved 1:1 odds dropping the fort level down from 3 to 2. Casualties were moderate for both sides, but the Imperial Guards Division took the brunt. Upon closer examination, the division commander has a leadership rating of only 27 and he'll be replaced next turn. The troops will recover disruption and resume the assault in a few days.

Indian Ocean:

CA Myoko and a DD run across another Allied transport TF of nine ships and engage during the night naval phase. One enemy PC and a transport are confirmed sunk and another heavily damaged before the Allied TF breaks off. Moonlight was only 10% which most likely allowed the enemy to escape, but what a huge disappointment to have yet another poorly defended enemy TF get away almost unscathed.

All my ships in the IO are low on fuel and withdrawing to rendezvous with a replenishment TF.

China:

Still maneuvering for the next series of ground assaults and to isolate as many enemy forces as possible.

Korea:

50k+ of resources arrive at Fusan. Hopefully, I will start getting more when the port reaches level 8 in a few days.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 2/1/2013 4:40:03 PM >


_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 467
RE: April 12/42 Update - 2/1/2013 5:46:13 PM   
obvert


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I've found the Imperial Guards to be a poor fighting unit in nearly every campaign so far. I was reading another post that said in the war they were a unit only recently put to frontline duty, having been a kind of ceremonial protection division for the emperor. Not quite as elite as they sound.

Bummer about the convoy. Too bad you were low on fuel. The search planes might have been able to vector you in and finish them tomorrow in the day.

_____________________________


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Post #: 468
RE: April 12/42 Update - 2/1/2013 6:55:34 PM   
Chickenboy


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Pax, Obvert and SqzMyLemon,

Just wanted to say that I'm really enjoying your three contributions to this (and other) AARs and the forum in general. I find your participations to be very helpful and informative.

_____________________________


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Post #: 469
RE: April 12/42 Update - 2/3/2013 5:06:15 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Pax, Obvert and SqzMyLemon,

Just wanted to say that I'm really enjoying your three contributions to this (and other) AARs and the forum in general. I find your participations to be very helpful and informative.


I'm glad my AAR and posts contribute something to someone. Thank you for the thumbs up.

_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

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Post #: 470
April 13/42 Update - 2/3/2013 5:31:53 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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Just a few things to go over for today.

April 13/42:

Port Blair:

Another deliberate attack by the 21st Division achieves 1:1 odds and lowers the fort level to 0. Leadership of the division left something to be desired and the commander was replaced. Disruption is 10% with fatigue at 24%, but a shock attack is ordered for tomorrow.

China:

Lots of maneuvering but no ground combat. Recon consistently shows two enemy LCU's at Kweilin of less than 6000 troops. I doubt I'll achive anything, but an IMB is ordered to deliberate attack tomorrow. No idea on enemy strength or fort levels, but stranger things have happened.

Java:

16th Division captures Merak and now marches to the sound of the guns at Batavia. I'll await the arrival of this division before launching another deliberate attack. Southern Army HQ is at 97% prep for Batavia so maybe it will influence the battle upon reaching 100% despite most LCU's not fully prepped.

Indian Ocean:

My various TF's will reach the replenishment TF tomorrow and fuel up. I'm not sure if I'll head back out or return to Soerabaja to rearm. I'm worried about Allied CV's jumping this small force.

Paratroops captured Christmas Island IO.

Miscellaneous:

CV Junyo is complete and will join up with CV Hiyo and others at Kobe before sailing for Babeldoab. Some naval shipyards were turned off while a number of merchant shipyards were turned back on. I've also turned back on a 140 armament factory because I'm not happy with the low stockpile.

Fusan reached a level 8 port today and the resources at the base jumped to 195k. That's more like it. I'm hoping I'll get this kind of influx every 5 days or so to really increase the amount of resources reaching the Home Islands.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 2/4/2013 8:45:57 PM >


_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

(in reply to SqzMyLemon)
Post #: 471
RE: April 13/42 Update - 2/3/2013 5:36:26 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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I've a day off tomorrow to get new carpet installed downstairs that will complete the latest round of house reno's. Our 1970's bungalow is being slowly being introduced to the 21st century kicking and screaming all the way.

I should be getting a turn from Jocke as well and will hopefully have time to post a few screens updating a few theatres. I was planning on a netflix day to catch up on all the superhero movies I've not seen yet, among them Thor, The Avengers and Captain America. Yep, nerding it up big time tomorrow while taking advantage of the day off.



_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

(in reply to SqzMyLemon)
Post #: 472
April 14/42 Update - 2/4/2013 9:10:41 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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April 14/42:

Port Blair:

The shock attack by 21st Division succeeds. The leadership change instilled the proper motivation for taking the base, that or the threat of spending the remainder of the war fighting in China.

Four enemy units are destroyed:

44th Indian Brigade
2nd Indian Coastal Artillery Regiment
Port Blair RN Det
22nd Light AA Regiment

China:

The attack against Kweilin doesn't capture the base. Ugh, this was a failure on my part to not recognize that I could easily have taken the base weeks ago! I'm out of supply now and will have to wait at least a day before I can launch another attack. Hopefully the base isn't reinforced before a follow up Japanese division arrives. AAR follows:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Kweilin (76,54)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 6271 troops, 66 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 211

Defending force 3080 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 42

Japanese adjusted assault: 97

Allied adjusted defense: 75

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1 (fort level 1)

Japanese Assault reduces fortifications to 0

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(-), preparation(-), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
47 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Allied ground losses:
104 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 15 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
19th Ind.Mixed Brigade
10th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment

Defending units:
9th Group Army
2nd Chinese Base Force

Java:

Artillery bombardments against Batavia continue to destroy a few squads daily. I now have a 2:1 AV advantage. When the 16th Division arrives from Merak I'll launch another deliberate attack.

Indian Ocean:

I have numerous submarines patrolling the Indian Ocean that have been vectored towards the Allied transport TF's recently attacked by CVL Ryujo and friends. The SS I-4 puts a torpedo into xAK Robert Luckenbach, but no sinking sounds are heard so the transport is most likely only moderately damaged.

An AI induced problem has cost me the chance to refuel the CVL Ryujo TF tomorrow. Ordered to rendezvous by patrol point with the replenishment TF, the AI in its infinite wisdom overode my orders and sent the CVL TF heading towards Java instead. I've set the replenishment TF to follow the CVL TF and hopefully I can get these task forces to meet up. This sucks, as the attack by SS I-4 was only two days sail away. This has cost me a chance to go after the transports had I chosen to.


_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

(in reply to SqzMyLemon)
Post #: 473
pre-April 15/42 Update - 2/6/2013 6:55:48 PM   
SqzMyLemon


Posts: 2844
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline
We've possibly run into another snag. We've completed the April 15th turn and about to run the 16th turn, but Jocke has informed me he's having trouble moving a force in China again.

I'm trying to trap a Chinese force of nine LCU's that originally occupied Hengyang, but Jocke has informed me he's been attempting to move this force for the last 3-5 days and the movement has been resetting to zero again. I've been bombing this force daily in an effort to cause disruption and slow it down to be isolated and trapped. I'm at a loss here. We had this issue earlier in the game when I went back a number of turns and froze all movement and bombing missions in China for almost 10 days, which allowed a large enemy force to escape encirclement.

I wish Jocke would bring this up as soon at it happens. I thought this issue had been resolved. Don't use the follow command and keep units in combat mode if they are being bombed to not lose movement. I don't know how Jocke is attempting to move his forces, but I can't be expected to not bomb a force I'm trying to slow down in an effort to trap them. I've noticed several change of direction ticks from this force from constant recon so I thought it wasn't moving because Jocke was changing the movement orders. I've been moving my forces as if everything was ok and assuming I was outmaneuvering Jocke only to learn that he's been having problems. I don't want to get an advantage from this situation, but expecting me to undo my moves when I don't know there is a problem is a bit unfair and puts me in a difficult position.

I'm really in a pickle here, I need to know something is up right away so we can address it before the situation becomes impossible to fix. I am definitely not keen on redoing any turns this time around, too much has happened and too many small comabt actions would be affected. I accomodated this problem once already, but this time I think Jocke has to take this one on the chin. If I'd known sooner we could have addressed it, now it compromises way too much.

Any thoughts?

_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

(in reply to SqzMyLemon)
Post #: 474
RE: pre-April 15/42 Update - 2/6/2013 7:18:42 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17862
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline
Well, do you know if Jocke was using the 'follow' command? That may be 'on him' as you say, if he was. In any case, it's not unheard of for Chinese LCUs to have to reset their movements due to aerial bombardment.

The show must go on. Kill them all.

_____________________________


(in reply to SqzMyLemon)
Post #: 475
RE: pre-April 15/42 Update - 2/6/2013 8:53:18 PM   
obvert


Posts: 6834
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: online
We've had some issues that we went backwards for, and each time it is difficult. I'd find out what his orders were at least, and also mention what you're saying about really needing to deal with it immediately if at all.

As an alternative you could offer to stop bombing there with the caveat that if you catch him anyway then you catch him. If you do, he'll get them back in the end. Not sure where they are, but if you're bombing and the movement is not working, could that just be because your bombing is doing what it's supposed to do?



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"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 476
RE: pre-April 15/42 Update - 2/6/2013 9:01:15 PM   
SqzMyLemon


Posts: 2844
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Well, do you know if Jocke was using the 'follow' command? That may be 'on him' as you say, if he was. In any case, it's not unheard of for Chinese LCUs to have to reset their movements due to aerial bombardment.

The show must go on. Kill them all.


I confirmed with Jocke, no 'follow' command was used. I think there are a number of factors involved here, but not sure I agree with the design to allow previous movement to be lost. I understand and accept mode switches, strat-combat and move-combat if bombed and having to travel at the combat mode movement rate. However, how can it be possible to completely wipe out a portion of movement already completed, that just doesn't make sense.

I'm not going to say anything here is a bug. I'd just like to better understand what factors are responsible for resetting movement to zero. If bombing is solely responsible, I think that needs to be changed. Completed movement is just that, completed, and I do not agree that any enemy interdiction should be responsible for completely wiping out distance already travelled or preventing another player's units from being able to move at all.

The show will go on this time though. Jocke and I have exchanged e-mails and we'll work out a better system to address these kinds of issues as they arise and not let things go unreported too long and risk compromising the game.

Kweilin just fell and if Jocke thought the current situation sucked, it just got a lot worse . Kill 'em all indeed.

_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 477
RE: pre-April 15/42 Update - 2/6/2013 9:20:19 PM   
SqzMyLemon


Posts: 2844
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

We've had some issues that we went backwards for, and each time it is difficult. I'd find out what his orders were at least, and also mention what you're saying about really needing to deal with it immediately if at all.

As an alternative you could offer to stop bombing there with the caveat that if you catch him anyway then you catch him. If you do, he'll get them back in the end. Not sure where they are, but if you're bombing and the movement is not working, could that just be because your bombing is doing what it's supposed to do?


Hi Erik,

Yes, Jocke and I have talked and at first he didn't think it was a big deal, but then found he couldn't move after various units were resetting to zero, and this last turn all his units were set back to zero.

That's just is, I think a number of factors are responsible. He's being bombed daily, he has no clear supply LOC and he's overstacked. I think these and other unknown factors are what is causing his movement issues. So I think my bombing is doing what it is supposed to, slow him down. However, as I just stated in the previous post, it seems wrong that anything I do should completely wipe out any movement his forces have already completed. I mean, even Allied air interdiction against the Falaise pocket couldn't stop German troops escaping, they weren't reset to their starting positions.

I can understand his frustration, but I can also look at the map and see that his problems also stem from a pretty poor tactical position and the fact that I recognized how to take advantage of it. Now it's just snowballing for him.

I'll provide a screenshot tonight to provide a visual reference and explain what has and is happening.

_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 478
RE: pre-April 15/42 Update - 2/6/2013 9:32:25 PM   
SqzMyLemon


Posts: 2844
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline
I'd also like to add, I've been trying to get three different naval TF's to meet up with a replenishment TF for the last three turns and I've only been able to refuel one. My other two now show red fuel levels and don't have enough to reach port. I've tried follow, meet and setting patrol zones with delay to allow these TF's to hook up, but the AI overides my orders and continues to move the low fuel TF's towards port despite the fact that if they'd just stop for a frikkin' turn and stay at the patrol point they'd be able to replenish from my AO TF. My AO TF, if ordered to follow the low fuel TF's can't catch the faster ships since they won't acknowledge the follow order or the patrol point set and simply sail for port instead. This is extremely frustrating and is really pissing me off.

Anybody have a solution to offer before my CVL's end up sitting ducks for an Allied submarine because they are out of fuel?

_____________________________

Luck is the residue of design - John Milton

Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

(in reply to SqzMyLemon)
Post #: 479
RE: pre-April 15/42 Update - 2/6/2013 9:32:29 PM   
witpqs

 

Posts: 14520
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
When moving in Move mode, getting knocked into Combat mode does not/should not reset movement. If that is happening I suggest submitting save games to Michael.

The mention you made of Follow commands could, I believe, if an HQ or something else with no AV was being 'followed' into an enemy controlled hex. And of course getting knocked out of Strat mode should stop movement, as you mentioned. But just Move mode to Combat mode, should be no loss of miles AFAIK.

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Post #: 480
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