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Squad AT weapons (WWII) - which value for HEAT?

 
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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Squad AT weapons (WWII) - which value for HEAT? Page: [1]
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Squad AT weapons (WWII) - which value for HEAT? - 8/9/2012 11:59:40 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 1514
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline 		Norm himself classifies Panzerfaust, 2.36in ATRL (bazooka) and PIAT as 'very light RPG' in the appendix of the Equipment.rtf that can be found in the manuals folder. Very light RPG gives the squad the AT- characteristics with an AT value of 5 (HEAT).

However, is there a consensus among long time TOAWers and scenario designers that this shouldn't be or respectively should rather be higher?

I ask as I have compared some data (all people long time "TOAWers", veteran scenario designers, the old guard etc):

In Bill Wilson's WWII database the Bazooka and PIAT have 8 HEAT, the PzFaust 20 (!).
While i can see (and understand) that he sees the PzFaust superior, though a bit too superior to the Allied models, it's still higher as recommended by Norm. Armor values for AFVs in his database are in most cases the same as for the standard equipment base btw.

Derek Weichs (aka PanzerWar) WWII database gives the PzFaust armed squad 7, the Bazooka 14 and the PIAT 9 HEAT. But he increased Armor strengths of most AFVs.

Snefens in OP Neva - Leningrad 1944 gives the PzFaust armed squad 8 HEAT, too.
That would ,according to Norm's recommendation (if it is one), apply to post war US 3.5in ATRL and 'PzSchreck' (8.8cm).

Bob Cross' two France 1944 scenarios give both, Allied and German units a mixture of AT and AT- squads.
AT for the German PzSchreck, okay. But in that quantity? And the Allies..?

DMcBride in 'Berlin - Götterdämmerung' gives the German infantry a mixture of Rifle AT (HEAT 8) and normal Rifle squads.
I *could* see this as a measure of balancing against overwhelming odds. Or later model Panzerfausts

Apart from the inconsistency and attempts/rationale to model the various versions of the Panzerfaust (30, 60, 100) or the early bazooka vs the later M9 version there seems to be one consensus though. That all AT (HEAT) values are generally higher as recommended for these weapons by Norm. Why?

< Message edited by Telumar -- 8/10/2012 8:29:06 PM >

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RE: Squad AT weapons (WWII) - which value for HEAT? - 8/10/2012 12:10:50 AM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 5714
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Bob Cross' two France 1944 scenarios give both, Allied and German units a mixture of AT and AT- squads.
AT for the German PzSchreck, okay. But in that quantity? And the Allies..?


For a 1944 scenario, I add one level of AT to front-line squads to account for close-assault abilities of such squads (Molotov cocktails, sticky bombs, etc.). Today, I probably would have edited the equipment instead, but that wasn't available at the time this scenario was created.

(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 2
RE: Squad AT weapons (WWII) - which value for HEAT? - 8/10/2012 3:59:37 AM   
ogar

 

Posts: 146
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline 		My guess is that the scenario designers were working in a mode similar to what Curtis described - trying to model effects in a specific close-in environment for a specific campaign.  The two DB builders (Wilson and Weichs), I think, were trying to put together a more comprehensive model as opposed to one for just the Normandy countryside in summer 1944, for instance.

I'll also guess that earlier trials with scenarios showed that the armor was just too strong.  And that could be because tanks as pixels are not really hampered by terrain, weather, ruins, snipers, etc.  So _something_ has to be added to slow them a bit.  (Again - this is a guess on my part on what other folks have done.)

Note that most of the examples are for pre-TOAW 3.4.  I wonder, if folks were trying to account by increasing HEAT values, for some of the defender improvement that came with TOAW 3.4.

My own inclination is to keep AT- (HEAT = 5) for squads in 1942-43, gradually bringing AT (HEAT = 8) in later 1943-1944.  I think some German squads might go AT+ in 1945, but I'd leave Americans and British at AT, and actually restrict Soviet units to AT- unless the units are sappers.  But that's me, and I can go do my own database and scenario.  That's one of the great things about TOAW.  And I'll be the first to throw out all my theory if/when testing shows the need for stronger infantry AT to maintain game balance.

Also note we haven't even gotten to 1946 let alone Sil's 1947 or Korea... or anything close to modern.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
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RE: Squad AT weapons (WWII) - which value for HEAT? - 8/10/2012 2:30:01 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 1514
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

Bob Cross' two France 1944 scenarios give both, Allied and German units a mixture of AT and AT- squads.
AT for the German PzSchreck, okay. But in that quantity? And the Allies..?


For a 1944 scenario, I add one level of AT to front-line squads to account for close-assault abilities of such squads (Molotov cocktails, sticky bombs, etc.). Today, I probably would have edited the equipment instead, but that wasn't available at the time this scenario was created.


Thanks Bob. I just was interested in your rationale. Let's see if Snefens 'pops up' and adds something. The others seem to be no more active.

I'm compiling the OOB/TOE for a new project (Sept - Oct 43), using Brian Wilson's database and came across these increased AT values, and wondered..

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RE: Squad AT weapons (WWII) - which value for HEAT? - 8/10/2012 2:44:13 PM   
Telumar


Posts: 1514
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar

My guess is that the scenario designers were working in a mode similar to what Curtis described - trying to model effects in a specific close-in environment for a specific campaign.  The two DB builders (Wilson and Weichs), I think, were trying to put together a more comprehensive model as opposed to one for just the Normandy countryside in summer 1944, for instance.


That's what i thought, too. The close-in environment in Normandy. But then, shouldn't - or doesn't - the combat model account for that? I.e. Infantry Defense Bonus in this kind of terrain or the Visibility factor in AT combat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar

I'll also guess that earlier trials with scenarios showed that the armor was just too strong.  And that could be because tanks as pixels are not really hampered by terrain, weather, ruins, snipers, etc.  So _something_ has to be added to slow them a bit.  (Again - this is a guess on my part on what other folks have done.)

Note that most of the examples are for pre-TOAW 3.4.  I wonder, if folks were trying to account by increasing HEAT values, for some of the defender improvement that came with TOAW 3.4.


Guess - yeah. That's why i thought i'd ask the people who did this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ogar
My own inclination is to keep AT- (HEAT = 5) for squads in 1942-43, gradually bringing AT (HEAT = 8) in later 1943-1944.  I think some German squads might go AT+ in 1945, but I'd leave Americans and British at AT, and actually restrict Soviet units to AT- unless the units are sappers.  But that's me, and I can go do my own database and scenario.  That's one of the great things about TOAW.  And I'll be the first to throw out all my theory if/when testing shows the need for stronger infantry AT to maintain game balance.

Also note we haven't even gotten to 1946 let alone Sil's 1947 or Korea... or anything close to modern.



According to what i've read the US infantry company had 3 bazookas in 43. I would go with a third of the squads in a US combat unit being AT- (HEAT 5) in 43. The pieces at the Mortar and AT platoon of the Hvy Company could be modeled as single pieces of eqp (AT- team) maybe or as Light Rifle AT- squads. Same for the British. For the Germans at that period in that theater (Italy) i would do the same. Will edit Brian Wilson's eqp base then as he has AT- = 8 (HEAT).

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RE: Squad AT weapons (WWII) - which value for HEAT? - 8/10/2012 6:13:04 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 5714
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

But then, shouldn't - or doesn't - the combat model account for that? I.e. Infantry Defense Bonus in this kind of terrain or the Visibility factor in AT combat.


Those two factors will make it harder for tanks to kill infantry or enemy tanks. I don't think they will enhance infantry's ability to kill tanks. For that, you have to raise the infantry's AT factor. And that AT factor is a measure of a squad's ability to kill tanks - by any means (at least, that's how I saw it).

For CFNA (a 1940-42 scenario), I added no such bonus. I would consider 1939-41 to be the "happy days" for tanks. It took time for infantry to develop the equipment and tactics to defend themselves from tanks. But by 1944, tanks weren't so "happy". That was what I was trying to model.

It would be better if the game system accounted for this separately, of course. But that's for the future.

(in reply to Telumar)
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RE: Squad AT weapons (WWII) - which value for HEAT? - 8/10/2012 6:30:13 PM   
LLv34_Snefens


Posts: 178
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Aarhus, Denmark
Status: offline 		No consensus that I know of. The value of the HEAT property of infantry will always be sort of arbitrary as you need to combine several factors (ROF, range, accuracy and penetration) into a single value.

Where I sticked with uniform formulas for determining what AT value I would give to guns, mostly their penetration capability, it didn't make sense giving the short ranged PzFaust the same AT value as a gun that could knock out enemy tanks from over 1km away, even if they theoretically could penentrate the same thickness.

So the values I ended up using for infantry is mostly just set to what I'd think would bring the results I think was close to what I would expect. So far it's working ok.

When looking at the AT-values I use, also remember that I used custom armor values for the tanks as well, usually slightly higher than the default values.

(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 7
RE: Squad AT weapons (WWII) - which value for HEAT? - 8/11/2012 2:27:05 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 787
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		I tend to be one who doesn't equip any pre-1944 troops with Heavy Rifle Squads, especially not 'pure' Infantry Units. An exception are the Elite Units or Panzergrenadiere from 1942 onwards. The AT+/- I might have to reconsider in my update of Joao's Kharkov '43 scenario. As a rule of thumb I follow Norm's recommendations.

What is an infantry squad? Which should I use for my scenarios?

Infantry squads in TOAW are intended to represent standard units of about 10 soldiers with their personal weapons and any heavy weapons normally assigned at squad level. For many rifle squads in the game this includes one or more attached light machine guns. It does not include weapons sometimes attached at the platoon level, including light mortars or medium machine guns. The "correct" type of squad for any particular type of unit varies with nationality and time period. Here are a few examples:

Irregular squad – lightly armed troops with no heavy or automatic weapons.
Light rifle squad – standard early WWII infantry armed with bolt action rifles and some light
automatic weapons.

Rifle squad – standard WWII infantry with bolt action rifles and some automatic weapons.

Heavy rifle squad – U.S. and late WWII (1944+) German or Soviet infantry armed with automatic rifles, and German WWII infantry with more than the usual number of attached light machine guns.

SMG squad – U.S. and German paratroopers, German and Soviet SMG units. The majority of troops in these units carry sub machine guns.

Squads with "RL" designations are intended to represent squads with light anti-tank weapons assigned. These weapons include things like the U.S. 2.36" bazooka used from 1942 to 1950. "HRL" squads have weapons such at the German Panzerfaust series weapons and the U.S. 3.5" bazooka deployed in Korea.

Which EQP DB are you using Snefens?

Klink, Oberst

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RE: Squad AT weapons (WWII) - which value for HEAT? - 8/11/2012 6:52:35 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
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quote:

Which EQP DB are you using Snefens?


He rolls his own. Check out Neva.

quote:

Squads with "RL" designations are intended to represent squads with light anti-tank weapons assigned. These weapons include things like the U.S. 2.36" bazooka used from 1942 to 1950. "HRL" squads have weapons such at the German Panzerfaust series weapons and the U.S. 3.5" bazooka deployed in Korea.


What is an 'RL designation' and what is an 'HRL squad' ? I've never seen these anywhere except in this paragraph.

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 9
RE: Squad AT weapons (WWII) - which value for HEAT? - 8/11/2012 7:43:01 PM   
Jo van der Pluym


Posts: 450
Joined: 10/28/2000
From: Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

What is an 'RL designation' and what is an 'HRL squad' ? I've never seen these anywhere except in this paragraph.


These squads has Norm in TOAW I. Later in a update they changed
? RL Squad in ? AT Squad
? HRL Squad in ? AT+ Squad






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Greetings from the Netherlands

Jo van der Pluym
The CrazyDutch

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 10
RE: Squad AT weapons (WWII) - which value for HEAT? - 8/11/2012 8:44:27 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 787
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jo van der Pluym


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

What is an 'RL designation' and what is an 'HRL squad' ? I've never seen these anywhere except in this paragraph.


These squads has Norm in TOAW I. Later in a update they changed
? RL Squad in ? AT Squad
? HRL Squad in ? AT+ Squad






Thanks Jo; that explains some mismatch I experienced using Jon Martina's TO&E. So, basically the TOAW I HRL = Rifle Squad AT+ etc.

Klink, Oberst

_____________________________

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Visit the Gefechtsstand!

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Post #: 11
RE: Squad AT weapons (WWII) - which value for HEAT? - 8/13/2012 11:54:52 AM   
Telumar


Posts: 1514
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: niflheim
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jo van der Pluym


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

What is an 'RL designation' and what is an 'HRL squad' ? I've never seen these anywhere except in this paragraph.


These squads has Norm in TOAW I. Later in a update they changed
? RL Squad in ? AT Squad
? HRL Squad in ? AT+ Squad






Thanks Jo; that explains some mismatch I experienced using Jon Martina's TO&E. So, basically the TOAW I HRL = Rifle Squad AT+ etc.

Klink, Oberst


Still that's not in sync with the appendix in the equipment.rtf in ACOW and TOAW III. It says AT- (HEAT=5) for PzFaust, 2.36in RL bazooka, PIAT. But in the end, every designer decides for himself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
[...] equipment and tactics to defend themselves from tanks.


Good point.

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Post #: 12
RE: Squad AT weapons (WWII) - which value for HEAT? - 8/13/2012 3:58:33 PM   
Jo van der Pluym


Posts: 450
Joined: 10/28/2000
From: Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jo van der Pluym


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

What is an 'RL designation' and what is an 'HRL squad' ? I've never seen these anywhere except in this paragraph.


These squads has Norm in TOAW I. Later in a update they changed
? RL Squad in ? AT Squad
? HRL Squad in ? AT+ Squad






Thanks Jo; that explains some mismatch I experienced using Jon Martina's TO&E. So, basically the TOAW I HRL = Rifle Squad AT+ etc.

Klink, Oberst


Still that's not in sync with the appendix in the equipment.rtf in ACOW and TOAW III. It says AT- (HEAT=5) for PzFaust, 2.36in RL bazooka, PIAT. But in the end, every designer decides for himself.



In toaw i has the
rifle,heavy rifle or smg squad a anti-armor value of 5
rifle RL,heavy rifle RL or smg RL squad a anti-armor value of 14
rifle HRL,heavy rifle HRL or smg HRL squad a anti-armor value of 24


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Greetings from the Netherlands

Jo van der Pluym
The CrazyDutch

(in reply to Telumar)
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RE: Squad AT weapons (WWII) - which value for HEAT? - 8/17/2012 10:22:41 PM   
orabera


Posts: 44
Joined: 5/31/2002
From: Monument, CO
Status: offline 		Has anyone tried creating an equipment item for WWII RL such as Bazzooka or PIAT? Similar to the AT rifle early in the war and then using Base Infantry squads with AT capability of 1?

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Post #: 14
RE: Squad AT weapons (WWII) - which value for HEAT? - 8/18/2012 9:27:17 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 2256
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: online 		There are Bazookas, Piats and Panzerfausts in the Alt Databases.

(in reply to orabera)
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