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RE: How good is this game ?

 
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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/22/2012 11:01:46 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
- Decisive Campaigns Case Blue. This, in my opinion, is actually the top East Front game out there. Fabulous design, intuitive yet rich, completely mod-able to an extent rarely seen in a game of this type, the might and long-lived TOAW being the obvious comparison. Excellent support from the developer who is always on the forum and takes player/modder inputs in an open, intelligent and positive fashion.


I don't know it yet, and besides AE, WitE and ARMA2 I don't see myself having time for another monster game within the next year at the very least. But could you expand a bit on the mod-ability of DCCB? I am curious since this is always a primary selling factor for me, besides AI. I oftentimes love to mod more so than play, and stop playing once I am happy with my modding effort (or feel to have reached the limits of the modding possibilities, but without having gotten much closer to the goals). Stupid, me thinks, but so it has been for a decade now.

< Message edited by janh -- 8/22/2012 11:02:55 AM >

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/22/2012 12:00:46 PM   
Flaviusx


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DC is much more open source in terms of code than WitE. It's a modder's wet dream. Grigsby games just do not lend themselves to this sort of thing, they never have and never will. Whether or not this matters to people is a matter of personal taste; as much as I enjoy what Redmarkus is doing with Case Blue (also Krupp) it's nothing that is essential for my own gaming experience. In either that game or this one.

I have taken a complete pass on mods for this game, btw. They all seem a bit to teutonic to me. I don't particularly want my maps of the Soviet Union strung with germanic versions of city names and such.

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/22/2012 4:32:19 PM   
RCH


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The question that started this thread must be answered by each player themselves and not before a six month period of play. I thought this game was the greatest thing for the first month or so.

After playing six months the questions that must be asked are as follows:
1) Does the flow of the game have an eastern front feel?
2) Are the logistics represented well?
3) Is the air war modeled to the players taste?
4) What is the opinion on how C&C is modeled?
5) Is the 1941 blizzard historical and if not why not and if why not then why to such a degree.
6) Does the game have many options or does it feel scripted? Meaning, are the two sides during different parts of the game have options or must they just play along and wait their turn.
7) Do certain events happen because of battlefield realities or because of some date? If so why?
8) The editor is very limited. Why? (I say this because if many things that are game breakers could be modded then obviously there wouldn't be any game breakers)
9) Is the IGOUGO system to generous?

There are more questions that can be asked. After six months if these things are okay with the player then play away.

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/23/2012 12:33:35 AM   
Mac Linehan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

WITE has its warts. But it is unquestionalbly the best 'whole war' East Front "PC" game out there. You may find others that do a better job on one area or that are at a different scale. But not that cover the whole front from 41 to 45. Simple as that. It's the best value for money "PC" game I have ever played.


Must agree.

Mac

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/23/2012 3:32:19 PM   
turtlefang

 

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RCH -

If I invest six months of playing a game, all I can say is that the designer must have done something right. I'm not going to play anything for six months if I'm not enjoying it and and I don't think its giving me the experience I expected.

And I haven't played any game - whether its a historical board game from the 70s on or a computer game from 90s on - or a first person shooter that I suck at but play to have something to do with my kids while their away at college - that I can't find something that I want to see improved after two weeks of playing. And the longer you play any game, the more "imperfections" you find. Its just my nature in any case.

I will echo the comments made by others - WITE has its warts, but overall it provides best east front experience I have yet to find.

Will I complain or wish certain aspects were better - knowing me, yes. But as someone else pointed out, I've had it for about four months, and right now its providing one of the lowest entertainment $$ spent to hours enjoyed of anything I've done in a long time. And I don't see that stopping anytime soon.

By that measure, its a major success even though I'm losing my current email game. Oh well, there's always the next one.

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/23/2012 4:41:02 PM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
- Decisive Campaigns Case Blue. This, in my opinion, is actually the top East Front game out there. Fabulous design, intuitive yet rich, completely mod-able to an extent rarely seen in a game of this type, the might and long-lived TOAW being the obvious comparison. Excellent support from the developer who is always on the forum and takes player/modder inputs in an open, intelligent and positive fashion.


I don't know it yet, and besides AE, WitE and ARMA2 I don't see myself having time for another monster game within the next year at the very least. But could you expand a bit on the mod-ability of DCCB?


The DCCB Editor is tough to handle but very powerful. Here's a short list of some key things you can mod, as well as an assessment of complexity.

1. The Map. You can create any map you desire as well as creating new hex types (e.g. Jungle) and replacing all of the map graphics. Complexity = Medium.
2. The OOB. You can create new unit types (e.g. Civil War Cannon) or edit all existing ones to create a completely new OOB. You can remove or add units to the map to create a new battle or campaign. Complexity = High.
3. Unit Graphics. You can mod all unit graphics. For example, I have replaced the stock images with B&W WW2 photos, while Troy Ritter has edited all of the NATO icons. Complexity = Low.
4. Movement tables. All movement costs per terrain type/unit type can be edited in table form. Complexity = Medium.
5. Combat Values. All combat values can be modded likewise. Complexity = Medium.
6. Officers. All officers can be edited, removed or added, along with their attributes. Complexity = Medium.
7. Events. All game events can be modded, removed or inserted. For example, you could add a set of events to model the effect of off-map strategic bombing on morale and supply. Complexity = Very High.
8. Cards. The cards system is totally mod-able and you can add new cards to the mix as desired. Complexity = Medium.

Basically, every major part of the game structure can be modded, from creating new scenarios in different time periods with different units, to editing combat results tables. Meanwhile, the AI performs well, without resorting to spamming empty units and spreading them before you in a carpet, and the server-based PBEM seems to work very smoothly.

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/23/2012 5:53:33 PM   
76mm


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redmarkus is there a manual or wiki for the DCCB editor? On of the reasons I haven't bought it is that I couldn't find any info on the editor. Another reason is that I didn't care much for Advanced Tactics, although I'm not sure that I gave it a fair shake.

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/23/2012 9:36:54 PM   
Templer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang
WITE has its warts, but overall it provides best east front experience I have yet to find.

Someone ever checked Russo-German War 41-44 by Schwerpunkt?
Schwerpunkt

I don't know the game.

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/23/2012 9:55:41 PM   
Walloc

 

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I've played it yes, but it was years ago. The designer is making a new game/update of the game. There is a thread on it on the wargamer, with updates on the progress of the game. U will see some familiar faces posting there.
Wasnt my cup'a tea. Very board game type experience, which isnt necesarilly bad, but in this case there IMO is a endless number of phases, not taking any advantage of its a computer game. That turned me off. If the AI had been good i might not have cared, but i wasnt impressed with the AI either. Never did play any PBEM.


Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 8/23/2012 9:58:14 PM >

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/24/2012 1:30:57 AM   
turtlefang

 

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Yes, I tried it quite a while back and it didn't really do much for me. A lot of phases trying to stimulate interactions but it wasn't that exciting or interesting (read boring).

Now, that's my opinion and other people may feel a lot differently - which is fine as different types of games appeal to different people.

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/24/2012 1:34:13 AM   
turtlefang

 

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I played it a while back - can't remember how many years ago. If I remember correctly, it had a lot of interphases trying to stimulate interactive movement or reactions. It just wasn't that interesting to me.

Now this is my opinion and others may feel differently. Which is fine as different games appeal to different people.

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/24/2012 5:09:04 AM   
hfarrish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

RCH -

If I invest six months of playing a game, all I can say is that the designer must have done something right. I'm not going to play anything for six months if I'm not enjoying it and and I don't think its giving me the experience I expected.

And I haven't played any game - whether its a historical board game from the 70s on or a computer game from 90s on - or a first person shooter that I suck at but play to have something to do with my kids while their away at college - that I can't find something that I want to see improved after two weeks of playing. And the longer you play any game, the more "imperfections" you find. Its just my nature in any case.

I will echo the comments made by others - WITE has its warts, but overall it provides best east front experience I have yet to find.

Will I complain or wish certain aspects were better - knowing me, yes. But as someone else pointed out, I've had it for about four months, and right now its providing one of the lowest entertainment $$ spent to hours enjoyed of anything I've done in a long time. And I don't see that stopping anytime soon.

By that measure, its a major success even though I'm losing my current email game. Oh well, there's always the next one.


I've been playing Eastern Front computer games since Second Front (I was 13 at the time) and I can safely say that WITE is the best...I agree with Michael T that it absolutely has warts - there are things that will drive you absolutely crazy (I attacked one German unit with six divisions and lost 6000 men to his 100?) but at the end of the day it is an absolutely engrossing experience. I would challenge any Eastern Front afficionado to play as the Sovs right now and not feel their heart pounding every time they open a turn from their opponent in '41 - if that is not the definition of a good game, I don't know what is!

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/24/2012 10:26:56 AM   
U2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


- Decisive Campaigns Case Blue. This, in my opinion, is actually the top East Front game out there. Fabulous design, intuitive yet rich, completely mod-able to an extent rarely seen in a game of this type, the might and long-lived TOAW being the obvious comparison. Excellent support from the developer who is always on the forum and takes player/modder inputs in an open, intelligent and positive fashion.



I'm so frustrated with Case Blue that I will soon erase it from my computer

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/25/2012 2:30:29 AM   
rosseau

 

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Be more specific about Case Blue, U2. With 3,284 posts you have the cred.

I had no interest in France 1940 until WtP. Fascinating game, and now an editor. Got DB but haven't played yet. Bought WitE and expansion (a lot of dough) on release. Time is of most value, and a bit concerned if I would be wasting it after 1942 (vs AI), as some people suggest. Also, so many rules changes since release, I am frightened to go back to it.

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/25/2012 2:48:21 AM   
hfarrish


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Don't know about the AI point (as I have only ever played PBEM) but the devs have been pretty clear that no new major rule changes are coming in the near- to mid-term future; with WITE today what you see is what you get.

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/25/2012 3:02:38 AM   
Flaviusx


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U2, CB just got released and no new release is perfect, I'd be patient while some of the quirks in the game get worked out. It really is a solid game for what it is doing. The underlying game system is sound, and this the main thing imo.

You can probably talk Redmarkus into tweaking it to your taste before Vic takes a crack at it, too.

There's some weird things about it I'm not totally happy with either, but nothing that can't be fixed up or modded.





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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/25/2012 1:19:59 PM   
U2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

Be more specific about Case Blue, U2. With 3,284 posts you have the cred.

I had no interest in France 1940 until WtP. Fascinating game, and now an editor. Got DB but haven't played yet. Bought WitE and expansion (a lot of dough) on release. Time is of most value, and a bit concerned if I would be wasting it after 1942 (vs AI), as some people suggest. Also, so many rules changes since release, I am frightened to go back to it.


A single Soviet HQ unit can hold the city of Kerch against the entire 11th German army inflicting heavy losses without taking almost any itself. It can't be defeated even with the help of tons of arty and the Luftwaffe. Oh, yes, this HQ also shots down tons of your aircraft. If I had played as the soviets I would put a Soviet HQ unit in each hex of Stalingrad and watch the germans commit suicide.

The HQ can be defeated but it takes 3-4 turns to do (it's supply has to be low) that since Kerch is a port and by that time the deadline for taking Kerch is long gone, you've lost prestige, and the rest of the campaign ruined.

I'm hoping Vic understands the problem.

Otherwise I have not noticed anything but good things in the game. But the issue above ruins the entire campaign game and I only play long campaign scenrios. So it's a very serious issue for me.

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/25/2012 1:25:00 PM   
U2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

U2, CB just got released and no new release is perfect, I'd be patient while some of the quirks in the game get worked out. It really is a solid game for what it is doing. The underlying game system is sound, and this the main thing imo.

You can probably talk Redmarkus into tweaking it to your taste before Vic takes a crack at it, too.

There's some weird things about it I'm not totally happy with either, but nothing that can't be fixed up or modded.






Indeed, it's a solid game otherwise. I hope to be playing it again once the issue is resolved.

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/25/2012 1:49:25 PM   
Flaviusx


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Yeah I saw that business with the HQs. I think I get why they were made that way, but it's plainly causing problems with urban combat.

WitE avoids this whole issue via displacement, which has its own oddities, but at least doesn't result in super HQs.



< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 8/25/2012 1:52:19 PM >


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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/25/2012 6:12:13 PM   
Mac Linehan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


Don't know about the AI point (as I have only ever played PBEM) but the devs have been pretty clear that no new major rule changes are coming in the near- to mid-term future; with WITE today what you see is what you get.


hfarrish -

Appreciate your comments - I am only just beginning to study this forum. While 2by3 is very busy with it's next release, I will trust that the Team will continue to give WitE the support it deserves.

Mac

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/26/2012 3:07:26 AM   
Mac Linehan

 

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Templer -

I also have Schwerpunkt, bought it in January 2005.

Have looked at it, but not played it yet. There may be a day when I need a simpler board game to allow time to play - if game time is at a premium; so it is on the shelf - and will wait for me.

Mac


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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/26/2012 4:34:36 AM   
hfarrish


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I have no doubt that they will support it - I am just saying that they've been very clear that we (as a community) should not expect any major balancing / rule / structure changes in the near to mid-term future, and that any such changes would probably be a part of WITE 2 (which I would buy, of course).

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/26/2012 1:49:04 PM   
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IIRC the Russo-German War by Schwerpunkt had more bugs than a Lousiana swamp; I spent hours playing and updating it until one day I just had had enough.




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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/26/2012 10:01:02 PM   
Michael T


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quote:

IIRC the Russo-German War by Schwerpunkt had more bugs than a Lousiana swamp; I spent hours playing and updating it until one day I just had had enough.



Same here.

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/28/2012 7:06:10 AM   
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Regarding DC: Case Blue... Vic admited that he prioritized balanced gameplay as opposed to historical accuracy.


< Message edited by jomni -- 8/28/2012 7:08:05 AM >


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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/29/2012 5:50:36 PM   
U2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

Regarding DC: Case Blue... Vic admited that he prioritized balanced gameplay as opposed to historical accuracy.



Well if that means HQ units defeating attacking combat regiments I want my money back. I'll wait a few weeks...

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/29/2012 7:36:27 PM   
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Well...German AI seems to be kicking my ass in my first GC as Soviets vs AI (OK, second, but I restarted after I realized I did major mistakes with game mechanics..).

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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/29/2012 8:06:14 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: U2
Well if that means HQ units defeating attacking combat regiments I want my money back. I'll wait a few weeks...


I think you are a bit harsh with your statement.
DC:CB is neither historical accurated nor a logistic game.
Easy to learn but not so easy to master, there are several things to fix (HQ, ART, etc. units in defence; no recon aircrafts, too generous amphibious transport capacity and so on) but all looks toward the ground combat balance and it seems a successful objective.

If you, like me, want an historical OOB (within the limits of course), like to check the map trying to keep your units supplied, count your tanks or choose wich unit to upgrade (the true logistic phase) then in DC:CB you can do that but in a soft way, no matter how many patches will come.
Otherwise if you just want fight in a reasonable balanced game this is for you.

I think CB is a very good game for a beginner of this genre.

Edit: I agree with Sardaukar's post, the AI is good.

< Message edited by Blind Sniper -- 8/29/2012 8:07:44 PM >


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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/31/2012 8:45:19 AM   
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Blind Sniper

Since you mentioned logistics, DC's kin Advanced Tactics is the great logistical game.  It as a feature that everybody wants WITE to have -- which is the abilty to create your own TOE based on resources and situation.  But totally not historical as it is a generic game engine that can simulate any modern (WWII-like) conflict. :)

You are right in saying that DC is popular because the game is both challenging and balanced.  Both sides have a fair chance of success and a lot of strategizing to do. But this can only be achived by bending history and tweaking game mechanics. WITE's historical "accuracy" has it's pros and cons as we know.

DC is mainly a game and not a simulation of the Eastern Front.  So I am not surprised if some WITE lovers will dislike DC.

< Message edited by jomni -- 8/31/2012 8:50:07 AM >


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RE: How good is this game ? - 8/31/2012 11:40:29 AM   
Blind Sniper


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Jomni,

never played Advanced Tactics but I heard is a good game.
I'm not a WitE lover at all and I know the CB design choices, even if I found CB a bit "dry" I think is still very enjoyable, I will not play it for long time although

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