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"Surrounded in Enemy Country"

 
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"Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 6:56:41 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		Large Slow Target's note that this is the 70th anniversary of D-Day at Guadalcanal brought to mind the incredible resistance by 1st Marine Raider Battalion on Bloody Nose Ridge a few weeks later. That, in turn, brought to mind some of the great instances in American history of troops being in "Indian Country": surrounded (or nearly so) and facing very tough odds. Here are some that come to mind (and can you think of others?):

1. 1st Marine Raiders on Bloody Nose Ridge at Guadalcanal, 1942.
2. 101st Airborne at Bastogn, 1944.
3. 1st Cavalry Divison, LZ X-Ray, Vietnam, 1965.
4. I tried to think of something from the Civil War, but the Siege of Chattanooga never got "life or death" (probably thanks to the ineptness of Bragg) and neither did the Siege of Knoxville. I couldn't think of any other instance.


< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 8/7/2012 6:57:21 PM >
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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 7:09:43 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		The Siege of Ninety-Six, South Carolina, in 1781 would also be a good candidate for nomination. But that's a tough one to measure, because it happened to be Loyalists who were deep in Indian Country and surrounded and besieged by the Patriot army under Nathaniel Greene. The cavalry came in the form of British regulars and Loyalists under the command of Lord Francis Rawdon. That was an epic siege, so I think it counts.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 8/7/2012 7:11:33 PM >

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 7:17:44 PM   
dr.hal


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Status: offline 		Wasn't LZ Xray a battalion action (a small subset of the 1st Cav Div)? 1st bat, 7th cav reg. What most folks forget was the fact that the rescue group, 2ed bat, 7th cav got the you know what kicked out of them the next day at LZ Albany. Nothing to detract from Moore's guys, but a sad second day... a day not often mentioned.

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 7:30:24 PM   
AW1Steve


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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 7:36:28 PM   
dr.hal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

20th Maine at little Round top?


They were not "surrounded"....

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 7:38:53 PM   
jeffk3510


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

20th Maine at little Round top?



1st Minnesota Volunteer Inf as well...

Btw... Dan, where is Bastogn?

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 7:40:13 PM   
geofflambert


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Status: offline 		October of '44, "the Lost Battalion". 1st Battalion of the 141st Regiment was caught 2 kilometers behind German lines near Biffontaine. The all Japanese-American 442nd Regiment fought for 5 days to break through to them, and yes, there was even a Banzai charge. Wonder what the Germans thought about that? The 442nd lost 800 men in order to rescue 211. The 442nd for this and in many other battles became the highest decorated Regiment in the history of the US Armed Forces.

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 7:40:26 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

20th Maine at little Round top?


They were not "surrounded"....



On three sides by confederates.....on the other side by "NEW YAWKEERS". That's pretty surreounded!

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 7:40:50 PM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal
Wasn't LZ Xray a battalion action (a small subset of the 1st Cav Div)? 1st bat, 7th cav reg. What most folks forget was the fact that the rescue group, 2ed bat, 7th cav got the you know what kicked out of them the next day at LZ Albany. Nothing to detract from Moore's guys, but a sad second day... a day not often mentioned.


I think several battalions from 5th and 7th Cavalry were eventually involved.

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 7:42:17 PM   
Uncivil Engineer

 

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Status: offline 		Hornet's Nest at Shiloh? I don't recall whether they were COMPLETELY surrounded, but nearly so.

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 7:49:13 PM   
SuluSea


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Status: offline 		The seige at Khe Sanh and Orde Wingate's Chindits come to mind.

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 7:57:54 PM   
Panzerjaeger Hortlund


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Status: offline 		Wasnt there some debacle during the Korean war too? Some Marines and some reservoir?

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 7:58:18 PM   
JocMeister

 

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The original "Lost battalion"

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 8:00:52 PM   
Dan Nichols


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Status: offline 		7th Cavalry at Little Big Horn? A bit earlier.

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 8:03:08 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Wasnt there some debacle during the Korean war too? Some Marines and some reservoir?


The Chosin Resevoir

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 8:52:12 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		I didn't list the 7th Cavalry at Little Big Horn because that one didn't end too well, at least for the cavalry. This was meant to refer to successful stands when surrounded or nearly so. (Since 20th Maine was really part of a cohesive line, I wouldn't count it as a "cut off in Indian Country" kind of stand; same thing with the Hornet's Nest at Shiloh and Bloody Angle at Spotsylvania).

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 10:07:16 PM   
LST Express


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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 10:13:58 PM   
witpqs

 

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 10:29:23 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		I'm pretty sure no Americans were involved at Rourke's Drift.

(This began as a search for American examples, though I certainly don't mind other nationalities chiming in!)

The Alamo! Of course!

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 10:51:32 PM   
SuluSea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert


The Chosin Resevoir


I'm eagerly looking forward to the movie 17 Days of Winter

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 10:56:53 PM   
witpqs

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm pretty sure no Americans were involved at Rourke's Drift.

(This began as a search for American examples, though I certainly don't mind other nationalities chiming in!)

The Alamo! Of course!

Picky Editor! I thought the subject had widened by including 'loyalists'.

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 10:59:13 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		But the Loyalists were Americans! (I even have a book on the subject, titled "The Good Americans.")

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 11:02:05 PM   
AW1Steve


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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 11:04:04 PM   
witpqs

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

But the Loyalists were Americans! (I even have a book on the subject, titled "The Good Americans.")

Leave it to a word-smith.

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 11:21:08 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		Wouldn't Wake fall into the Little Big Horn category? The defenders were worthy of all honor given their bravery and stiff resistance, but ultimately failed. (I guess the Alamo falls into that category too, come to think of it).

So, the thread began with these search parameters: American forces surrounded (or nearly so) by large (possibly overwhelming) numbers of the enemy, but managing to hold on and emerge victorious. I think 1st Raiders at Bloody Ridge, 1st Cav. at LZ X-Ray, and 101st Airborne at Bastogne definitely fit the bill. Also, it sounds like several other nominations (Chosin Reservoir, the Lost Battalion, and the Hurtgen Forest incidents would also qualify, though I haven't read up on those recently).

Let's hear more from you guys!

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 11:40:42 PM   
Justus2


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Status: offline 		COP Keating in Nuristan, Afghanistan. A small base (couple platoons) got surrounded and nearly overrun by Taliban. Not as long a siege as the Alamo, but made for a LONG night!!
(Of course, I don't think they thought it was enemy country when they built it, but...)

COP Keating

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 11:51:39 PM   
AW1Steve


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Status: offline 		So Ke San. Or maybe Ft. Henry (Wheeling WV in the Rev war). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Henry_(West_Virginia)

< Message edited by AW1Steve -- 8/7/2012 11:52:50 PM >

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/7/2012 11:57:53 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		Just read the COP Keating piece. Wow! Thanks for the nomination and link.

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/8/2012 12:15:25 AM   
sandman455


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I didn't list the 7th Cavalry at Little Big Horn because that one didn't end too well, at least for the cavalry. This was meant to refer to successful stands when surrounded or nearly so. (Since 20th Maine was really part of a cohesive line, I wouldn't count it as a "cut off in Indian Country" kind of stand; same thing with the Hornet's Nest at Shiloh and Bloody Angle at Spotsylvania).



Say what? How can you not count the Battle of Little Big Horn?

Just a little trivia, but the phrase you are using actually has some real meaning behind it. And perhaps because of Little Big Horn it has made its way into popular usage.

Indian country was a North American term used back in the 1700's to referred to the area beyond the frontier of settlement that were inhabited by the local natives. It was later understood by the judicial system of the United States and the UK before that, to be an area where laws were unenforceable and the natives had full dominion over those who were there.

So if you were deep in it, or surrounded and cutoff in Indian Country you really were in big trouble; far more than any soldier surrounded by the enemy which is its common use today. A soldier has rights even if they are often ignored by the other combatants. In Indian Country you had nothing. It was a far scary place than just being cutoff on a battlefield. You still had a purpose. You were a soldier for your country hopefully fighting for a just cause. In Indian Country you didn't even exist by the laws of your own government. There was to be no recourse for whatever became of you.

Of course by the time of Little Big Horn the United States had pretty much stacked claim over much of the country so even Custer was not really "deep in Indian Country." Besides the Battle of Little Big Horn did turn out well for the Americans . . .






. . . of native descent.

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RE: "Surrounded in Enemy Country" - 8/8/2012 12:58:36 AM   
danlongman

 

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Status: offline 		If I was a Native American I might get upset since they are all now surrounded on their reservations.
What about Repugnicans surrounded in Dimmocrat territory?
For most americans the Rest of the World (TROW) IS "Indian Territory".
cheers


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