Case Blue: Bwheatley vs 'The German Sensation' abulbulian (no abulbulian)

[bwheatley]

Let's see how we do.

[Keunert]

looking forward to your aar!

[jjdenver]

Ah fun, another AAR - love it.

Oh, and for god's sake please don't use the "dismissal" option. It is ruining the keunert-olivier AAR which is about to end very prematurely. It's clearly not a balanced option if the Soviet commander is sacked in a couple of weeks for doing what was done historically - getting pummeled in summer 42. I had a suspicion it would be poorly implemented and it is. The very drastic nature of that option (game ends) makes it critical that it is either not used or is implemented very very well. I love Vic's stuff but in this case it was a fail on the implementation of that option. To his credit at least it's just an "option" and not a built-in rule. He always does a good job of giving players options and enabling mods in his games.


In fact I have the same feeling about the oil rule. The Germans of AGS didn't really have oil problems in 1942 since they got priority for petrol supplies from the Reich. There were however problems pushing oil to the frontline units and the Luftwaffe was forced to actually fly in oil to the spearheads because the German logistics system just wasn't able to support pushing oil this deep into Russia - a problem that plagues the Germans throughout the campaign. There was petrol and supplies available but as the Germans advanced they just couldn't manage to push those supplies to the front. I don't think this problem is modeled very well at all in Case Blue because it only takes I think 4 days to convert rail lines - 8 days is not a real represenation of how long it took the Germans to convert rail lines - it actually took much longer.

The real resonance of oil shortages was felt across other fronts and in later years more than by AGS in 1942 since AGS had priority for Axis oil I think.... but that's another topic - anyway at least don't use the "dismissal" option so we can all enjoy a nice long campaign AAR. Thanks.

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

Ah fun, another AAR - love it.

Oh, and for god's sake please don't use the "dismissal" option. It is ruining the keunert-olivier AAR which is about to end very prematurely. It's clearly not a balanced option if the Soviet commander is sacked in a couple of weeks for doing what was done historically - getting pummeled in summer 42. I had a suspicion it would be poorly implemented and it is. The very drastic nature of that option (game ends) makes it critical that it is either not used or is implemented very very well. I love Vic's stuff but in this case it was a fail on the implementation of that option. To his credit at least it's just an "option" and not a built-in rule. He always does a good job of giving players options and enabling mods in his games.


In fact I have the same feeling about the oil rule. The Germans of AGS didn't really have oil problems in 1942 since they got priority for petrol supplies from the Reich. The real resonance of oil shortages was felt across other fronts and in later years more than by AGS in 1942 I think.... but that's another topic - anyway at least don't use the "dismissal" option so we can all enjoy a nice long campaign AAR. Thanks.

Ya we didn't use it this time. I figured we could try it when we were more experienced but now we're too rookie to know how it might fuck us over. And hah we'll see if it's long abulbulian wants to restart because he got heavy rain on T2. So we'll see if we restart or if he eventually keeps going. If you know him from WITE you know he's strong minded guy. Anyway here are some screens with T1 to come.

[bwheatley]

To start off I forgot to take start screen screenies.

The front is a mess. But in the north the 13A commander decides that with 5th Tank Army (5TA) less then a days march away that he will fight.



A little to the south the 160RD and 6RD part of 40A find themselves 20km behind enemy lines. The local commander decides his best chance of escape is to push NE through what turns out to be the Panzer Rgt of the 3rd Pz Division. The panzer regiment was apparently staging for a continued drive eastward.
They did not anticipate the soviets to attempt a break out from their SW.

Even the mighty panzers were no match for 2 divisions of soviets who know that to be captured is treason under soviet law.

[bwheatley]

The 111RD, 119RD, and 141RD all push west to encircle one of the 9th Pz Divisions Motorized PzG Regiments.
The 170TB sweeps south to flank the now cut off PzG regiment.

The coordination was successful (79% concentric attack bonus) due to all of 40A units only working together.



In just a few hours of battle the german forces realize there is no way out. The normally steadfast germans finally break and panic and are rounded up. The first battle of Kastornoye is a resounding soviet success. In a days work half the combat power of the 9th Pz Division has been decimated.

There is plenty of work left to do and the soviets are down but not out.

[Blind Sniper]

He is doing my very same mistakes, don't push too hard and give the concentric bonus.
Also don't give up too many terrain.

[bwheatley]

T1 - North (End of Turn)

Situation Report - 2000 Hours June 28th

Briansk Front - Commander I. Golikov
Commander I. Golikov relieved of duty for failure to take up proper defensive positions.
Replaced by V. D. Tsvetsaev.

13th Army - Commander N. P. Pukhov
Opposition - LV Corps, XIII PZ Corps, XXIV PZ Corps
Preparing to defend the area around Livny in a line running north to south with defense in deep between 20-30km.
143RD, 132RD, 15MRD,129TB along with an ATBn - Counter attacked south and forced a retreat for the 1st SS Brigade.

50th Tank Army - Commander A. I. Liziukov
Opposition - XIII PZ Corps, XXIV PZ Corps
Moved west to bivouac around Kastornoye area. Preparing defenses.
4TC, 16TC,8CG(Cavalry Group hereforth, 19th Sep. TBn - All released from briansk front reserves to 50TA.

4TC moves far SW to try to slow any germany advance through the large southern gap in the lines by Stary-Oskol.

40th Army - Commander M. A. Parsegov
Opposition - XIII PZ Corps, XXIV PZ Corps
Preparing defenses SW of Kastornoye.
6RD,160RD - Both units cut off in town of Tim. Both fought NE to meet up with 111RD. Engaged a panzer regiment of 9Pz.

62RD, 45RD - Cut off with little hope of rescue 10KM NE of Rsjawa

111RB,119RB,141RB,170TB along with a rocket Btry - cut off, attacked and destroyed a Mot PzG regiment of 9Pz.

[bwheatley]

South Western Front - Commander S. K. Timoshenko

General Situation - Hole torn in the front from Stary-Oskol in the north to Valyuki in the south of the front.

21st Army - Commander A. I. Danilov
Opposition - Elements of 4PzA, 6A, unknown the rest of our opposition yet. Recon has been poor.
4PzA pushing SE from Rsjawa while 6A is pushing NE from the Woltschansk area.
Nothing has been cut off yet but we are in severe risk.
All forces are trying to retreat behind the oskol river.

28th Army - Commander D. I. Riabyshev
Opposition - 6th Army
3Gds.CG - encircled and likely will be lost.
Majority of our units have been destroyed.
124RD - Down to 1 understrength RR. Setting up defenses on the east side of the oskol river.
38RD - Down to 2 understrength RR. Setting up defenses on the west side of the oskol river west of valyuki.
169RD - 3 understrength RR. Setting up defenses on the east side of the oskol river.
23TC - 4 TR. Setting up defenses on the east side of the oskol river.
65TB,91TB - Understrength setting up defenses south of Valyuki.


38th Army - Commander K. S. Moskalenko
Opposition - 6th Army?? Recon foggy.
Majority of our units are still in fighting shape. We are all organizing a line south of Valyuki to north of Swatovo.
Army Reserve is the 242RD.

[bwheatley]

Note next turn i'll take actual screenshots based on the fronts..i wasn't used to it yet.

[Grotius]

Enjoying the AAR so far. Personally, I like the Dismissal option; it is sure adding tension to my own game against the AI. But I hope Vic considers a less-drastic alternative -- perhaps a Victory Point penalty or something for failing to take/hold objections. The more options, the better.

[Keunert]

wow what a reply in the north! and even before the arrival of the infamous 5th TA!

[bwheatley]

Southern Front - Commander R. I. Malinovksy

General Situation - The largest front we have breaches of the donetz NE of Slawjansk.
We have breaches in 4 places through the front. Most breaches are only 10km wide and 10km deep. Though by Rostov the germans have a 30km wide breach 20km behind the frontlines. Situation in front of Rostov is quickly becoming untenable unless reinforcements are released.

9th Army - Commander A. I. Lopatin
Opposition - 6th Army??
All remaining forces are working on building defenses around Swatovo and getting behind the Krasnaya river.

37th Army - Commander P. M. Kozlov
Opposition - ??
All remaining forces trying to cross the Donetz via the bridge at Lisitchansk


12th Army - Commander A. A. Grechko
Opposition - ??
All remaining forces are pulling back east to avoid encirclement. The terrain favors the defense against the German Pz's. We have delaying positions at Artemovsk north and south for 30km. The main HQ is based at Voroshilovgrad.

18th Army - Commander F. V. Kamkov
Opposition - ??
All remaining forces are pulling back east to avoid encirclement. But there is a 10km wide valley that runs NE into the hinterland.
353RD - Commander Kamkov came to the front himself to help us during the coming battle. (32% defensive combat bonus). We are positioned on the hills directly east of the main german position. We expect to take the brunt of the initial assault.
64TB, and ATBn units - are north in the valley setting up a blocking position to prevent the german Pz from exploiting the clear terrain.
395RD - Setting up blocking positions to the south of 353RD on the valley and hills.

24th Army - Commander I. K. Smirnov
Opposition -
Front reserves that were released and directed to move north of rostov. Currently on the road expected arrival 48-72 hours.

56th Army - Commander V. V. Tsyganov
Opposition - ??
Comrade Stalin has re-designated 56A as the Rostov Front Army (RFA).
31RD,339RD - Encircled NW of Rostov and likely will be destroyed.
30RD - Requested permission to attempt a break out of 31RD,339RD by attacking the Wiking Pz MotR. Permission was denied. United ordered to retreat 10km and setup a 30km long screen to allow time for a proper defense of Rostov to be set up.
81Mar.RB - Moved 20km E to setup fortifications. Stavka got the build army to build fortifications. The army commander also visited and supervised the digging (140entrench).
811RB - Setting up blocking positions
2Gds.RB - Setting up a wide defensive screen NW of Rostov
76Mar.RB,68Mar.RB - Setting up screens

[bwheatley]

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Enjoying the AAR so far. Personally, I like the Dismissal option; it is sure adding tension to my own game against the AI. But I hope Vic considers a less-drastic alternative -- perhaps a Victory Point penalty or something for failing to take/hold objections. The more options, the better.

If it was like WITP that would be best...saying you lose but you guys can keep playing if you want just to know. That would be the best imo.

[bwheatley]

Note: I forgot all about sevastopol and the caucasus.

Sevastopol -
The germans forced 10KM closer to the city limits.
We have mobilized our fleet to attempt a rescue of the remaining troops if/when the situation seems hopeless.

Caucasus -
We have kept the 47A and 46A in place to protect against seaborn invasion. Though we have released 51A to help provide defense to rostov. Estimated arrival 48-72 hours.

[bwheatley]

Note: My opponent is unhappy about the random weather and is thinking about having me replay the turn while i'm trying to talk him into giving it a shot. So we'll see where it goes.

[Keunert]

what's the alternative? play without weather? there is only this weather available.

[olivier34]

Great AAR and the fate of the 9th panzer is scary ! Maybe some preventive airstrike against those soviets that had a good starting position to attack the 9th could have help...
Reading this AAR, I understand that my friend Keunert is having some trouble with his boss, mister Staline. He may lose his job and finish in a goulag of some sort. [:D]

[balto]

In my low skill experience with Case Blue, I see these results as typical. The Germans cannot win against a reasonably good Russian player.

What happened in the north to the 9th Panzer always happens. The Germans do not have time on their side, so they must relentlessly attack. It is somewhat easy for the Russians to hang back and strike a spearhead here and there (one to three a turn) while their replacements and reinforcement and entrenchment keep increasing. MY god the 5th Tank Army is a freaking monster unit!!

I predict the Olivier will be the only AAR where the Germans are successful. I believe that because Olivier's tactical understanding of the game's combat engine is freakishly great. He knows how to make penetrations into three lines of defenders and he knows when the defenders are weak. So barring his genius, I doubt anyone can win with the Germans.

I think the Dismissal option is great. It does not sneak up on you in the middle of a contested scenario. Based on Olivier's AAR, it arises ONLY when you have clearly beaten your opponent into a bloody heap. I therefore see the Dismissal Option as a great way to prevent someone from suffering for 20-50 turns in these super long scenarios. Someone like me that is not very smart, Dismissal would be a godsend.

Really looking forward to this AAR. Nothing against your opponent but if you combine the German disadvantage with bad luck in the weather on the first two turns, this one is already over unless you experiment and try some reckless maneuvers.

[balto]

Most importantly, this AAR is organized fantastically. You start off with your HQ units, than their subunits, and you work from the North to the South. To me, this is super fantastic. Looking forward to your excellent battle (that you will win).