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Poor kill rate on ram attacks?

 
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Poor kill rate on ram attacks? - 8/4/2012 10:01:25 PM   
erstad

 

Posts: 1933
Joined: 8/3/2004
From: Midwest USA
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This might be WAD, but it seemed worth asking. In the combat report excerpts below, there are 22-23 ramming attacks on Allied mediums. But there are only 18 japanese air losses total (this could be FOW related) and 2 destroyed allied planes. While I have no references or basis for saying what a kill rate on a ram attack is, my uneducated guess would be that more allied planes would have gone down.

This example might be a little more extreme than most but I do see a lot of ram attack reports with generally not a lot to show for it.

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 9 destroyed
J2M2 Jack: 3 destroyed
N1K2-J George: 3 destroyed
Ki-61-Id Tony: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 1 damaged
B-25D1 Mitchell: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
B-25H Mitchell: 1 destroyed, 6 damaged
B-25J11 Mitchell: 9 damaged
P-51B Mustang: 2 destroyed



Banzai! - Asada T. in a N1K2-J George rams a B-25H Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Morita W. in a N1K2-J George rams a B-25H Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Minegishi W. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25D1 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Oyama W. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Akashiba S. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Doikawa O. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25H Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Endo V. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25H Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Inano L. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25H Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Ibusuki L. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25H Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Matsumoto T. in a J2M2 Jack rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Morioka U. in a J2M2 Jack rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Kusumoto A. in a J2M2 Jack rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Katagi O. in a N1K2-J George rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Kanda J. in a N1K2-J George rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Kanzaki D. in a N1K2-J George rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Also attacking 34th Ind.Mixed Bde /1 ...
Also attacking 108th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 14th Ind.Mixed Regiment ...
Also attacking 26th Ind.Mixed Rgt /1 ...
Also attacking 108th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 14th Ind.Mixed Regiment ...
Also attacking 34th Ind.Mixed Bde /1 ...
Also attacking 108th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 14th Ind.Mixed Regiment ...
Banzai! - Sagara G. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Ohara H. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Araki M. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Hanamoto V. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Saito I. in a Ki-61-Id Tony rams a B-25H Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Agawa L. in a Ki-61-Id Tony rams a B-25H Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Gushi C. in a Ki-61-Id Tony rams a B-25H Mitchell for the Emperor
Post #: 1
RE: Poor kill rate on ram attacks? - 8/4/2012 10:57:16 PM   
Miller


Posts: 1898
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline
I had this problem a couple of years back. It is related to the B25s heavy nose armament......they damage Jap fighters when they attack head on and a damaged fighter is much more likely to ram, unforunately they seem to be ram proof for some reason

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2469825

(in reply to erstad)
Post #: 2
RE: Poor kill rate on ram attacks? - 8/5/2012 1:13:09 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 12010
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: erstad

This might be WAD, but it seemed worth asking. In the combat report excerpts below, there are 22-23 ramming attacks on Allied mediums. But there are only 18 japanese air losses total (this could be FOW related) and 2 destroyed allied planes. While I have no references or basis for saying what a kill rate on a ram attack is, my uneducated guess would be that more allied planes would have gone down.

This example might be a little more extreme than most but I do see a lot of ram attack reports with generally not a lot to show for it.

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 9 destroyed
J2M2 Jack: 3 destroyed
N1K2-J George: 3 destroyed
Ki-61-Id Tony: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 1 damaged
B-25D1 Mitchell: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
B-25H Mitchell: 1 destroyed, 6 damaged
B-25J11 Mitchell: 9 damaged
P-51B Mustang: 2 destroyed



Banzai! - Asada T. in a N1K2-J George rams a B-25H Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Morita W. in a N1K2-J George rams a B-25H Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Minegishi W. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25D1 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Oyama W. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Akashiba S. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Doikawa O. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25H Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Endo V. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25H Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Inano L. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25H Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Ibusuki L. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25H Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Matsumoto T. in a J2M2 Jack rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Morioka U. in a J2M2 Jack rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Kusumoto A. in a J2M2 Jack rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Katagi O. in a N1K2-J George rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Kanda J. in a N1K2-J George rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Kanzaki D. in a N1K2-J George rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Also attacking 34th Ind.Mixed Bde /1 ...
Also attacking 108th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 14th Ind.Mixed Regiment ...
Also attacking 26th Ind.Mixed Rgt /1 ...
Also attacking 108th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 14th Ind.Mixed Regiment ...
Also attacking 34th Ind.Mixed Bde /1 ...
Also attacking 108th JAAF AF Bn ...
Also attacking 14th Ind.Mixed Regiment ...
Banzai! - Sagara G. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Ohara H. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Araki M. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Hanamoto V. in a A6M5 Zero rams a B-25J11 Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Saito I. in a Ki-61-Id Tony rams a B-25H Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Agawa L. in a Ki-61-Id Tony rams a B-25H Mitchell for the Emperor
Banzai! - Gushi C. in a Ki-61-Id Tony rams a B-25H Mitchell for the Emperor


Do you have the replay from the report shown?
I haven't seen that many 'rams' in one attack before, and would be good to review.

_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to erstad)
Post #: 3
RE: Poor kill rate on ram attacks? - 8/5/2012 7:54:53 AM   
erstad

 

Posts: 1933
Joined: 8/3/2004
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline
this should be it




Attachment (1)

(in reply to michaelm75au)
Post #: 4
RE: Poor kill rate on ram attacks? - 8/5/2012 4:05:15 PM   
sandman455


Posts: 209
Joined: 7/5/2011
From: 20 yrs ago - SDO -> med down, w/BC glasses on
Status: offline
I don't suppose there is a way for the modder to change the effectiveness of a ramming event? Or sans that ability, decrease the likelihood of one occurring?

The effect of a 2+ ton aircraft impacting directly into another at a very conservative 20-knot closure would be catastrophic to the largest of aircraft of today let alone something of WWII. A glancing blow might be survivable but the odds would be exceedingly slim. Also, given the combat philosophy of the attacking pilots (Banzai!) this was going to be the almost always fatal version of the attack where the engine block was the battering instrument.

If what we are reading in the combat report is a critically damaged aircraft trying to ram another, then perhaps the combat log could be changed to read

". . . A6M5 Zero attempts to ram . . ."

It would at least make it a bit more digestible. Anything is better than reading about 18 single engine aircraft ramming into some 2E's and bringing down 2.

_____________________________

Gary S (USN 1320, 1985-1993)
AOCS 1985, VT10 1985-86, VT86 1986, VS41 1986-87
VS32 1987-90 (NSO/NWTO, deployed w/CV-66, CVN-71)
VS27 1990-91 (NATOPS/Safety)
SFWSLANT 1991-93 (AGM-84 All platforms, S-3 A/B systems)

(in reply to erstad)
Post #: 5
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