6 inch Mark 16 AA shell

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6 inch Mark 16 AA shell

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> 6 inch Mark 16 AA shell

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6 inch Mark 16 AA shell - 8/4/2012 2:15:33 AM

Fallschirmjager

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I was doing some reading on the Brooklyn class cruisers and came across reference to the 6 inch main guns having a 65 lb AA bursting shell.
I have read the unit histories of most of the Brooklyn class ships and never seen reference to them using their main guns for AA defense.

Was this shell designed for the gun and then later never used? Or did it actually see combat use?

I have never see a AA shell of that size before. 128mm is the biggest I have read about for practical use.

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RE: 6 inch Mark 16 AA shell - 8/4/2012 3:11:31 AM

JeffK

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http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_6-47_mk16.htm

It looks like depending on the fuse use it was capable of AA fire.

< Message edited by JeffK -- 8/4/2012 3:14:23 AM >

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RE: 6 inch Mark 16 AA shell - 8/4/2012 8:07:34 AM

inqistor

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I do not think it was ever used, but modification was simple, by adding timed fuse for HE shell. Actually 16 inch also got that modification.

The interesting AA use of large gun was tried in Musashi last voyage. It shot directly into water, to prevent torpedo planes from delivering ordnance. But shells were designed directly for AA use (Sankaiden).

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RE: 6 inch Mark 16 AA shell - 8/4/2012 2:41:50 PM

dr.hal

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Actually Inqistor, the Musashi and her sister had dedicated AA shells for their 18.1 inch guns.... The captain of the Musashi refused to use them in that ship's last action for fear of damaging the gun barrel.

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 8/4/2012 2:43:08 PM >

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RE: 6 inch Mark 16 AA shell - 8/4/2012 2:48:00 PM

dr.hal

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Sorry, I see in your last sentence you know of this ordinance. Yet there seems to be some confusion. In this write up http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_18-45_t94.htm it indicates that the Musushi did fire the weapon, yet I've read in a number of accounts that the captain refused to use those shells. I wonder what the real story is... Hal

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RE: 6 inch Mark 16 AA shell - 8/4/2012 3:03:46 PM

crsutton

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I am reading that although the triple turrets on later Brooklyns and Clevelands could be elevated to about 60 degrees they could only reload at elevations below 22 degrees which would sort of defeat their being useful in an AA role due to a low rate of fire. Post war triple turrets such as found on the Little Rock were true dual purpose.

I always thought that the Cleveland class were more suitable AA fire than the Brooklyns but all of the six inch turrets are referred to as single use rather than dual. Guess I was wrong.

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RE: 6 inch Mark 16 AA shell - 8/4/2012 3:14:50 PM

dr.hal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Sorry, I see in your last sentence you know of this ordinance. Yet there seems to be some confusion. In this write up http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_18-45_t94.htm it indicates that the Musushi did fire the weapon, yet I've read in a number of accounts that the captain refused to use those shells. I wonder what the real story is... Hal

I just looked up the final moments of the Musushi in Ned Willmontt's book "The Battle of Leyte Gulf" and he indicates on p. 116 that although initially the use of the AA shell (sanshiki-dan) was refused, he goes on to say that it appears it was used as an act of desperation.

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RE: 6 inch Mark 16 AA shell - 8/4/2012 3:37:22 PM

Shark7

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Those 'AA' shells really are just air burst HE shells. While they might not have been used in the AAA roles, they would be quite useful for shore bombardment and area suppression, since they would go kaboom above the intended target.

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RE: 6 inch Mark 16 AA shell - 8/4/2012 6:01:32 PM

msieving1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

I was doing some reading on the Brooklyn class cruisers and came across reference to the 6 inch main guns having a 65 lb AA bursting shell.
I have read the unit histories of most of the Brooklyn class ships and never seen reference to them using their main guns for AA defense.

Was this shell designed for the gun and then later never used? Or did it actually see combat use?

I have never see a AA shell of that size before. 128mm is the biggest I have read about for practical use.

The US started working on a dual purpose 6" mount in 1940, but a series of delays meant that it didn't appear on ships until the post-war USS Worcester (CL-144), which commissioned in 1948. None of the 6" mounts used in WW2 were capable of AA fire.

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Post #: 9

RE: 6 inch Mark 16 AA shell - 8/5/2012 4:18:00 AM

Fallschirmjager

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It didn't go into detail but my reading seemed to indicate that the AA shell was not just a modified HE shell but a specialized shell. The AP shell was 130 lbs and the HE shell 105 lbs. It stated there was an AA shell of 65 lbs.

I am guessing the idea was that a lighter shell with the same powder charge could be reloaded faster and fired farther. But it looks like it was never used in combat.

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RE: 6 inch Mark 16 AA shell - 8/5/2012 12:03:05 PM

mike scholl 1

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I believe the first US 6" cruisers to have real DP 6" mounts were the post-war WORCHESTERS.

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RE: 6 inch Mark 16 AA shell - 8/5/2012 6:21:44 PM

Buckrock

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I haven't seen anything covering use of a specialised 6" AA shell but while reading accounts of the Helena during the Guadalcanal Camapaign I noted an example of using the 6" battery for AA against low flying Betty bombers during early '43.

The plan was to use salvoes of 6" HC shells with timed fuzes to create an airburst zone which would hopefully catch the Betty on approach. As it was only one salvo was actually fired, the enemy aircraft breaking off its attack soon after the shells burst in the air nearby.

Overall though, it didn't sound like the Helena's crews were too enthused with its use as the blast from the main battery had a slightly detrimental effect on those men crewing the somewhat open light AA mounts.

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RE: 6 inch Mark 16 AA shell - 8/6/2012 3:29:28 PM

Shark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

I haven't seen anything covering use of a specialised 6" AA shell but while reading accounts of the Helena during the Guadalcanal Camapaign I noted an example of using the 6" battery for AA against low flying Betty bombers during early '43.

The plan was to use salvoes of 6" HC shells with timed fuzes to create an airburst zone which would hopefully catch the Betty on approach. As it was only one salvo was actually fired, the enemy aircraft breaking off its attack soon after the shells burst in the air nearby.

Overall though, it didn't sound like the Helena's crews were too enthused with its use as the blast from the main battery had a slightly detrimental effect on those men crewing the somewhat open light AA mounts.

Now imagine the over-pressure from Yamato's main guns as you crew one of those unarmored 25mm mounts. The whole 'big gun for AAA work' thing probably was not thought out all that well.

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RE: 6 inch Mark 16 AA shell - 8/6/2012 4:21:45 PM

Lecivius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

I haven't seen anything covering use of a specialised 6" AA shell but while reading accounts of the Helena during the Guadalcanal Camapaign I noted an example of using the 6" battery for AA against low flying Betty bombers during early '43.

The plan was to use salvoes of 6" HC shells with timed fuzes to create an airburst zone which would hopefully catch the Betty on approach. As it was only one salvo was actually fired, the enemy aircraft breaking off its attack soon after the shells burst in the air nearby.

Overall though, it didn't sound like the Helena's crews were too enthused with its use as the blast from the main battery had a slightly detrimental effect on those men crewing the somewhat open light AA mounts.

Now imagine the over-pressure from Yamato's main guns as you crew one of those unarmored 25mm mounts. The whole 'big gun for AAA work' thing probably was not thought out all that well.