Matrix Games Forums

Happy Easter!Battle Academy is now available on SteamPlayers compare Ageods Civil War to Civil War IIDeal of the week - An updated War in the East goes half Price!Sign up for the Qvadriga beta for iPad and Android!Come and say hi at Pax and SaluteLegends of War goes on sale!Piercing Fortress Europa Gets UpdatedBattle Academy Mega Pack is now availableClose Combat: Gateway to Caen Teaser Trailer
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

splitting units - rationale?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Time of Fury >> splitting units - rationale? Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
splitting units - rationale? - 7/30/2012 4:01:42 PM   
gwgardner

 

Posts: 3196
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline
I wish someone could provide me a historical rationale for the 'splitting' feature in this game. Chocolino and I have outlawed the practice in our game.

One mitigating factor in it, which I did not understand till today, was that there is a PP charge for splitting. I thought it was willy-nilly free.

Post #: 1
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 7/30/2012 5:15:22 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1617
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
I wish someone could provide me a historical rationale for the 'splitting' feature in this game. Chocolino and I have outlawed the practice in our game.

One mitigating factor in it, which I did not understand till today, was that there is a PP charge for splitting. I thought it was willy-nilly free.


I always thought of it as representing Kampf Gruppe for the axis and Combat Commands for the US, for example, where divisions have sub-units which can be deployed separately, then re-combined when the task is done.

Corps sized units would split into their component divisions, which gives more flexibility, rather than always having to operate with full sized units. I thought it a reasonable way of depicting the way, historically, units were used and is a valuable feature in the game.

US armoured divisions advanced as 3 combat commands, two forward and one following, so that when contact was made by any of the CCs, the others could be deployed to best advantage, rather than have the whole division committed instantly.

The Germans frequently deployed Kampf Gruppe, which would be created and re-absorbed at will.




_____________________________

"We have to go from where we are, not from where we would like to be" - me

(in reply to gwgardner)
Post #: 2
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 7/30/2012 5:22:09 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1617
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
The other way to look at it is that you will want to concentrate your forces for attack, which having corps sized units allows, but in defence you will want to spread your forces out, splitting the corps units to cover more ground. The same principle applies to divisions, but on a smaller scale.

In game terms it overcomes the potential problem of not being able to stack units, Corps units effectively give you several stacked divisions, which you can then spit if you want.

< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 7/30/2012 5:23:14 PM >


_____________________________

"We have to go from where we are, not from where we would like to be" - me

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 3
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 7/30/2012 9:48:05 PM   
gwgardner

 

Posts: 3196
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline
All those rationales seem reasonable to me - what really has always bothered me is that someone could exploit this feature.

Example: in my last game, I had the Italians transport a corps across the Black Sea into Turkey. That corps could have then been split repeatedly, and voila I have 10 corps in Turkey. Of course lots of PPs have to be spent to build those up to full strength, but still it just seems like a dorky exploit if done that way.

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 4
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 7/31/2012 12:14:45 AM   
AH4Ever


Posts: 605
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: NU JOYZ
Status: offline
George Carlin once said: "If you break a crumb in half, you don't have two halves of a crumb. You have two crumbs." That should not be the case with a corps level unit, it should split into a finite number of division level units.

_____________________________

JJMC

The next best thing to being clever is being able to quote someone who is.

You weren't there Thursday... You MISSED it!

(in reply to gwgardner)
Post #: 5
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 7/31/2012 4:41:28 AM   
gwgardner

 

Posts: 3196
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AH4Ever

George Carlin once said: "If you break a crumb in half, you don't have two halves of a crumb. You have two crumbs." That should not be the case with a corps level unit, it should split into a finite number of division level units.


agreed

(in reply to AH4Ever)
Post #: 6
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 7/31/2012 10:12:12 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1617
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
The concept of splitting is OK, I think it is necessary to provide flexibility in a game which doesn't have stacking.

A separate point is being able to build up the separated units at a lower cost than a fresh build. It is a feature that happened historically, with cadres from existing units being used as the nucleus for new units, rather than build completely new green units. Limited use of this feature is reasonable, the question is how may times should you be able to do it with the same units.

I like the overall principle and the way it works in the game (choosing the strength of the split units), but maybe there is a balance issue, units that have been split are not eligible to split again, unless they have previously re-combined from the first split (maybe difficult for the game system, but possible for a house rule).

However, the split unit is frozen for several turns, so there is a 6 week time penalty, which is significant in combat situations. Agree Corps units should split off division sized units (except the host unit maybe could stay as a Corps, has Corps HQ and Corps assets) and you would have to pay the upgrade cost to make any split units up into Corps, so you could eventually spawn more Corps in the normal way, but at greater time and greater PP cost (making both split units into divisions increases the potential cost, making it a game balance issue).

If we could split off division sized units from Corps units, then there would be no need to freeze the new unit (now not creating a new Corps) and next turn it could be used. This is closer to the historic use of splitting off units to extend fronts, or create battle groups.

< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 7/31/2012 11:04:04 AM >


_____________________________

"We have to go from where we are, not from where we would like to be" - me

(in reply to gwgardner)
Post #: 7
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 7/31/2012 4:53:29 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1617
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
Doom - any comment on what might be possible within the game system, or what can't be done.

_____________________________

"We have to go from where we are, not from where we would like to be" - me

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 8
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 7/31/2012 5:37:53 PM   
Grimnirsson


Posts: 102
Joined: 12/25/2011
Status: offline
I generally wonder where Doom is...I get no replies to my update SotP issue, no reply on the forum, no reply via PM or email...I am slowly starting to get pissed. Both games sit here on the shelf so to say for months because I am waiting for some final update and ToF now gets a beta beta patch (and Gary now says there a major problem - again...)and the SotP patch I can't load because my German version doesn't have any serial number. And no answer for days now...

< Message edited by Grimnirsson -- 7/31/2012 5:48:56 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 9
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 7/31/2012 6:16:51 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1617
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
Usually responses are fairly quick, all we can do is wait.

_____________________________

"We have to go from where we are, not from where we would like to be" - me

(in reply to Grimnirsson)
Post #: 10
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 8/1/2012 7:47:36 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1617
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
Must be the holiday season.

_____________________________

"We have to go from where we are, not from where we would like to be" - me

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 11
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 8/1/2012 9:12:46 PM   
Grimnirsson


Posts: 102
Joined: 12/25/2011
Status: offline
then it would have been nice to tell us that he's on vacation. I can't get this damn SotP to work without the serial number and now have asked a Matrix guy what to do - hoping for an answer...

_____________________________


(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 12
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 8/1/2012 9:35:16 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1617
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
I hope it works out for you.

_____________________________

"We have to go from where we are, not from where we would like to be" - me

(in reply to Grimnirsson)
Post #: 13
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 8/2/2012 12:15:14 AM   
gwgardner

 

Posts: 3196
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grimnirsson

I generally wonder where Doom is...I get no replies to my update SotP issue, no reply on the forum, no reply via PM or email...I am slowly starting to get pissed. Both games sit here on the shelf so to say for months because I am waiting for some final update and ToF now gets a beta beta patch (and Gary now says there a major problem - again...)and the SotP patch I can't load because my German version doesn't have any serial number. And no answer for days now...


To clarify, you can still play ToF 1.01 just fine. That's what Chocolino and I are doing. The 1.02 beta 2 does have that serious problem with supply in N. Africa. I'm actually playing with 1.02 beta 2 myself solo, and treating the supply problem as a Malta problem. I personally haven't found any other serious problems with 1.02 beta 2.

I may be totally wrong, but don't Europeans pretty much treat August as a vacation month?

< Message edited by gwgardner -- 8/2/2012 12:16:49 AM >

(in reply to Grimnirsson)
Post #: 14
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 8/2/2012 10:47:15 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1617
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grimnirsson

I generally wonder where Doom is...I get no replies to my update SotP issue, no reply on the forum, no reply via PM or email...I am slowly starting to get pissed. Both games sit here on the shelf so to say for months because I am waiting for some final update and ToF now gets a beta beta patch (and Gary now says there a major problem - again...)and the SotP patch I can't load because my German version doesn't have any serial number. And no answer for days now...


I may be totally wrong, but don't Europeans pretty much treat August as a vacation month?


Except on the off-shore island, where in August the rain just gets a little warmer, but there has been a lot going on at Matrix, with several updates being issued, just hope ToF is next in the queue.


_____________________________

"We have to go from where we are, not from where we would like to be" - me

(in reply to gwgardner)
Post #: 15
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 8/2/2012 11:21:40 AM   
Grimnirsson


Posts: 102
Joined: 12/25/2011
Status: offline
Hi Gary,

quote:

To clarify, you can still play ToF 1.01 just fine. That's what Chocolino and I are doing. The 1.02 beta 2 does have that serious problem with supply in N. Africa. I'm actually playing with 1.02 beta 2 myself solo, and treating the supply problem as a Malta problem. I personally haven't found any other serious problems with 1.02 beta 2.


That's all fine, but knowing there's a new update at the horizon I want to wait to play with the latest version of a game. Since after the game came out, there was an announcement that a patch will change things, we waited...and then after the patch was released it was announced it wasn't included everything in that patch and a new patch is coming...and that was announced as ready and then as not really ready yet etc.. That means the game sits here waiting for a patch that says 'it's now working as intended'. And it seems they changed some core things like supply, so I really want to have the game finished before I start. Call it a personal preference when it comes to games ;)

quote:

I may be totally wrong, but don't Europeans pretty much treat August as a vacation month?


You are right and after having an email exchange with Scott I now know Doom is on holidays and I hope he finds some time to relax himself. But still I don't think that he doesn't have access to his emails and if he goes on holidays why not saying so in the forum? It's an easy way to let people who buy your products know that support is on hold for some time because of vacation time. To just disappear and not reacting when folks have some issues with your product is not the best decision. Anyways sorry, I didn't want to hijack this particular thread :)

< Message edited by Grimnirsson -- 8/2/2012 11:23:29 AM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 16
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 8/3/2012 7:45:18 PM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1617
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
Question deleted - just worked out the answer.



< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 8/3/2012 7:47:26 PM >


_____________________________

"We have to go from where we are, not from where we would like to be" - me

(in reply to Grimnirsson)
Post #: 17
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 8/4/2012 9:28:51 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1617
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner
I wish someone could provide me a historical rationale for the 'splitting' feature in this game. Chocolino and I have outlawed the practice in our game.

One mitigating factor in it, which I did not understand till today, was that there is a PP charge for splitting. I thought it was willy-nilly free.


Having thought some more and going back to the original question.

There are at least two historical precedence for splitting units.

Firstly, splitting existing units to spread the experienced personnel and vehicles over more units, e.g. the Germans doubled the number of panzer divisions, before Barbarrosa, by spreading the available AFVs over twice the units. They produced more PZ Divs, but each with much fewer AFVs, therefore did not achieve any great increase in overall strength points, just more units.

Secondly, the splitting of units to cover more distance of front in defence, or dropping off parts of units to cover flanks, or strategic points during advance.

These are two different features, both useful and can be justified in the game, provided the time penalty and costs are reasonable, to avoid the procedure being used as a cheat, or an easier way to create strength points.

In the first case there should be a PP cost and a time delay before the new unit can be used, the problem comes later when the split units could be used as an easy way to get more full strength Corps units, by cheaper reinforcement. The time delay and PP cost can be adjusted in the scenario const.ini file, but there is already a six week freeze on the newly created unit and a significant PP cost, which means that the game handling of this event seems OK.

In the second case it is useful to be able to split units, to overcome the limitations of no stacking in the game, where Corps units are essentially stacked divisions concentrating strength points, but with little flexibility in spreading strength when you need to. I am experimenting with reducing the time delay (you already lose one turn's move by doing the split) and minimising the PP cost (you are not gaining any strength points, just spreading out what you have).

The two situations are incompatible, as the const.ini settings will not be optimum for both cases. I am going for the second option, reducing time penalties and PP cost to give more flexibility, with house rules to stop misuse. Split units are renamed 54/1 INF Korps, 54/2 INF Korps, etc., any upgrade of these previously split units should pay full cost, through the F12 feature (e.g. buy any extra strength points at the going rate). In any case, the original units can be restored using the merge feature, bringing the split units back together again.

In short, I would like to use both options, split and merge units for operational flexibility, at minimal time and PP cost (adjusted in scenario const.ini file), but also a more strategic splitting of units, as the Germans did t, but with house rules - perhaps split only on home territory if you are going to reinforce to get two full strength Corps and pay for any additional strength increase with F12 (although there isn't a big PP cost advantage over normal unit build cost).

It's worth noting that you cannot split units which are at a higher level than your general tech level, some scenarios start with various units at a higher level than research has achieved and some higher tech units are offered in events, these won't split.

So thanks for starting the discussion, I learnt something of how the game works and how to adjust it, easier than I thought, but still experimenting. It leads into adjustments for other items that I thought needed a change, improving the game for me (keeping RAZZ's advice on game balance in mind, I can always change back if it doesn't work). It says a lot for the game that this is possible.


< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 8/4/2012 10:17:16 AM >


_____________________________

"We have to go from where we are, not from where we would like to be" - me

(in reply to gwgardner)
Post #: 18
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 8/4/2012 10:15:20 PM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5305
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline
I'm on holidays with my family. Should become operational since Tuesday.

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 19
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 8/5/2012 8:39:27 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1617
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
I'm on holidays with my family. Should become operational since Tuesday.


Well, the warmest weather we have experienced so far this year, was on a visit to Poland in early May, so wherever you are, hope you have had a good time.


< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 8/5/2012 10:23:59 AM >


_____________________________

"We have to go from where we are, not from where we would like to be" - me

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 20
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 8/5/2012 9:04:21 AM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5305
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline
The weather was rather mixed.

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 21
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 8/5/2012 10:31:14 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 1617
Joined: 6/30/2001
From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
The weather was rather mixed.

Had to edit my previous post, it was early May we experienced +30C, anyway looking forward to seeing you back in action.

_____________________________

"We have to go from where we are, not from where we would like to be" - me

(in reply to doomtrader)
Post #: 22
RE: splitting units - rationale? - 8/5/2012 11:47:52 AM   
doomtrader


Posts: 5305
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline
o yes, May was really painful and extreme this year. Easily over 30.

(in reply to Rasputitsa)
Post #: 23
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Time of Fury >> splitting units - rationale? Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.094