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How to kill P-47D2??

 
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How to kill P-47D2?? - 7/26/2012 1:07:14 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 6099
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I'm in late Sept '43 and my opponent is sending in multiple sweeps of P-47D2s at max altitude (we don't have a house rule on altitude). Is there a combination of fighters that do well against them?? I keep my fighters at 20k or below so I lose some when they get a bounce on me. Do I need to max out my fighter altitudes even if it is still lower??

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RE: How to kill P-47D2?? - 7/26/2012 1:19:20 AM   
SuluSea


Posts: 1917
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		Hi Micheal, have you given thought to staggering cap and either----

Use mediocrity (both pilots and airframes) as your lowest altitude with some of your better pilots/fighters 4-6K above it
Your best defensive jocks in the most maneveurable fighter at the lowest level and you better pilots/fighters 4-6k above it

It's a safe assumption trying to beat the P-47 at that height is bad news.


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RE: How to kill P-47D2?? - 7/26/2012 1:23:14 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1531
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
air model is biased towards the high-alt fighters

they get a) max speed b) high alt mvr c) max alt


if that were the case in the war.. then the mig-3 would have been the best fighter in the world


best fighters actually were corsair / ki-84 / spitfire XIV that had their top speed at about 20,000 feet with reasonable wing loading

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RE: How to kill P-47D2?? - 7/26/2012 2:40:16 AM   
SqzMyLemon


Posts: 2148
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf

air model is biased towards the high-alt fighters

they get a) max speed b) high alt mvr c) max alt


if that were the case in the war.. then the mig-3 would have been the best fighter in the world


best fighters actually were corsair / ki-84 / spitfire XIV that had their top speed at about 20,000 feet with reasonable wing loading


This contributes to the op's post how exactly?

Sadly Michael I haven't encountered P-47's yet in the game. My guess would be as Sulu suggests, crappy fighters and pilots at low alitude to draw them down so your better fighters may have a chance to get a higher altitude pass.

< Message edited by SqzMyLemon -- 7/26/2012 2:44:07 AM >

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RE: How to kill P-47D2?? - 7/26/2012 3:31:07 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/now in Malta
Status: offline 		SuluSea has the answer.

Partial answer to high-altitude sweeps is "layered CAP". It's not perfect answer, but brings the fight to more even ground.

Allied example is F4F Wildcats at 20k, P-40Es at 15k and P-39D at 10k in same base.



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RE: How to kill P-47D2?? - 7/26/2012 3:32:40 AM   
jeffk3510


Posts: 3393
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


air model is biased towards the high-alt fighters

they get a) max speed b) high alt mvr c) max alt


if that were the case in the war.. then the mig-3 would have been the best fighter in the world


best fighters actually were corsair / ki-84 / spitfire XIV that had their top speed at about 20,000 feet with reasonable wing loading


Look, dude. Your mod is fine an all, and you're free to any opinion you have on anything.. however, you ALWAYS take the chance to drive off topic with this stuff.. Start your own mod thread in the mod place and call it good.

Staggered alt on cap would do I would think... however the high alt is a big adv for the P47 in this case..

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RE: How to kill P-47D2?? - 7/26/2012 6:01:43 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 4513
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		The only thing that works for me is numeric superiority.  You're prolly still with Zero/Tojo.  I find I have to have minimum 2:1 odds* to be able to handle the Thuds.  So if he is sweeping with 35 Thuds, then I need 70 Tojo's in the air ... since only 1/3 of your a/c on CAP are actually in the air, that means I need 210 Tojo's in my groups on the ground flying at 100% CAP.  Lower CAP settings mean more Tojo's.  If you have 45 Tojo's per group, that's at least 5, but more likely 6 groups.  Hard to do, but the results have always been worth it for me.  I would expect to knock down over half of the Thuds that first day .. I doubt they will return after that.


* George/Frank would need lower odds ... say 1.5 -> 1.75:1

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RE: How to kill P-47D2?? - 7/26/2012 7:06:46 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 9226
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		Staggered CAP and numbers PLUS a thermonuclear device to detonate over their home bases!

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RE: How to kill P-47D2?? - 7/26/2012 7:27:18 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 3881
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		I agree with what is being said here, but Pax Mondo and John hit the nail IMO.

- You need absolute numerical superiority, sadly this really means 200+ airframes to counter an elite 30+ Tbolt raid, depending on detection range.

- listen to John 3rd. He is absolutely right. To effectively fight back you need to threaten their homebase. If you stay passive, you make every single enemy
fighter airframe available for sweeps (the exact opposite of what you want), and you completely cede the initiative. That is equal to losing already.

- As an addition, I am not a fan of the "symmetric" layered CAP, meaning regular alt bands @10, 15, 20k. Try to modify it a bit if you use something similar.
The best combination in my opinion is to put the majority of fighters at their best alt bands, staggered only a few thousand ft apart, and then a thin layer
of max alt top cover (e.g. by Georges, if not available, Tonys) to exploit any sweeper that gets pulled down into the fray below.

This could look like: 40% 12k, 20% 14k, 30% 19k, 10% 32k, depending on the airframes you are using. Simple chance should pull most of the enemy fighters
down low, and your (hopefully) best pilots then have a chance to dive on them.

One of the most important traits of a Japanese late war pilot is def skill btw.


That said, if you think the P47 is ugly, wait for the Spitfire VIII. That is a beast...

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RE: How to kill P-47D2?? - 7/26/2012 7:57:40 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 6099
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I have the Tojo IIa and just getting the IIc into production and the Frank for Army airframes. For Navy, I have the M5 and the M5b is just replacing the M5 on my CVs along with the George. The Thud has such an advantage in speed and ceiling, it is going to be hard to overcome. I will be experimenting over the next few days to see if I can kill more once I lose the numerical advantage I have on the first few sweeps. It was the 4th and 5th sweep that had me lose 20 airframes for 0 Thuds!!

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RE: How to kill P-47D2?? - 7/26/2012 9:12:14 AM   
tony luke

 

Posts: 193
Joined: 8/31/2001
Status: offline 		Rob and I see similar results with even Frank and George against H/Alt P47. We actually often achieved our best results putting everything down at 6000ft! Seems to screw the Thuds up a fair bit; however, don't know why.

Courage,

AKL

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Post #: 11
RE: How to kill P-47D2?? - 7/26/2012 10:18:03 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/now in Malta
Status: offline 		Frankly, P-47 should be a beast when high. It was arguably the best high-altitude fighter of WW II. When high, maneuverability just does not count much, raw power does.

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Post #: 12
RE: How to kill P-47D2?? - 7/26/2012 10:35:35 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/now in Malta
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I agree with what is being said here, but Pax Mondo and John hit the nail IMO.

- You need absolute numerical superiority, sadly this really means 200+ airframes to counter an elite 30+ Tbolt raid, depending on detection range.

- listen to John 3rd. He is absolutely right. To effectively fight back you need to threaten their homebase. If you stay passive, you make every single enemy
fighter airframe available for sweeps (the exact opposite of what you want), and you completely cede the initiative. That is equal to losing already.

- As an addition, I am not a fan of the "symmetric" layered CAP, meaning regular alt bands @10, 15, 20k. Try to modify it a bit if you use something similar.
The best combination in my opinion is to put the majority of fighters at their best alt bands, staggered only a few thousand ft apart, and then a thin layer
of max alt top cover (e.g. by Georges, if not available, Tonys) to exploit any sweeper that gets pulled down into the fray below.

This could look like: 40% 12k, 20% 14k, 30% 19k, 10% 32k, depending on the airframes you are using. Simple chance should pull most of the enemy fighters
down low, and your (hopefully) best pilots then have a chance to dive on them.

One of the most important traits of a Japanese late war pilot is def skill btw.


That said, if you think the P47 is ugly, wait for the Spitfire VIII. That is a beast...


LoBaron, I usually use best MVR altitude of fighter, since altitude also counts with bounce, thus my example.

And I second what LoBaron says..never neglect Def skill..it is difference if your pilot comes home and gains exp or burns.


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"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


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Post #: 13
RE: How to kill P-47D2?? - 7/26/2012 2:12:19 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 6341
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

I agree with what is being said here, but Pax Mondo and John hit the nail IMO.

- You need absolute numerical superiority, sadly this really means 200+ airframes to counter an elite 30+ Tbolt raid, depending on detection range.

- listen to John 3rd. He is absolutely right. To effectively fight back you need to threaten their homebase. If you stay passive, you make every single enemy
fighter airframe available for sweeps (the exact opposite of what you want), and you completely cede the initiative. That is equal to losing already.

- As an addition, I am not a fan of the "symmetric" layered CAP, meaning regular alt bands @10, 15, 20k. Try to modify it a bit if you use something similar.
The best combination in my opinion is to put the majority of fighters at their best alt bands, staggered only a few thousand ft apart, and then a thin layer
of max alt top cover (e.g. by Georges, if not available, Tonys) to exploit any sweeper that gets pulled down into the fray below.

This could look like: 40% 12k, 20% 14k, 30% 19k, 10% 32k, depending on the airframes you are using. Simple chance should pull most of the enemy fighters
down low, and your (hopefully) best pilots then have a chance to dive on them.

One of the most important traits of a Japanese late war pilot is def skill btw.


That said, if you think the P47 is ugly, wait for the Spitfire VIII. That is a beast...


Good advice. I tend to it a bit differently, putting each fighter unit at a different band, even if it is only 2k above or below, so that no 2 units are at the same altitude. It's the whole 'don't put all your eggs in one basket' approach.

By the way, this also works for airfield raids with the 2Es.

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Post #: 14
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