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The BAOR - 7/23/2012 1:42:15 PM   
Mad Russian


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Few Nations military forces can be so confusing as the British.

Here I'll attempt to sort out some of the nomenclatures and history of the British Army units that make up the BAOR.

BAOR stands for British Army of the Rhine. It was the occupational force the British Army had stationed in Germany.


Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 1
RE: The BAOR - 7/31/2012 2:36:45 PM   
Mad Russian


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British Mechanized Battalions and Armoured Regiments are the equivalent to US Battalions. These are trained to fight as combined arms groups.

Combined arms groups trade companies between themselves to form Battle Groups. A BAOR Battle Group is the equivalent of a US Task Force. There is no set proportion of infantry to armour companies when forming Battle Groups.

As would be expected there may be a Balanced Battle Group, Armour Heavy Battle Group or a Mechanized Heavy Battle Group.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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RE: The BAOR - 7/31/2012 2:41:15 PM   
Mad Russian


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Rifle companies consist of four platoons and a company headquarters. The artillery equivalent of a company is a battery and within armoured and engineering units, the equivalent is known as a squadron.

The British Army infantry normally identifies its rifle companies by letter (usually, but not always, A, B and C) within a battalion, usually with the addition of a headquarters company and a support/heavy weapons company. Some units name their companies after regimental battle honours; this is commonly the case for composite units, for example the London Regiment with its Somme, Messines and Cambrai companies. The foot guards regiments use traditional names for some of their companies, for example Queen's Company, Left Flank, Prince of Wales's Company etc.

Royal Marines companies are designated by a letter that is unique across the corps, not just within their command. The Intelligence Corps, Royal Army Medical Corps, Royal Military Police and Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers all have companies uniquely numbered across their corps.

The Household Cavalry, Royal Armoured Corps, Royal Engineers, Royal Corps of Signals, Army Air Corps, Special Air Service, Honourable Artillery Company and Royal Logistic Corps use the term squadron instead of company (although the Royal Engineers and Royal Signals had companies until after the Second World War, except in armoured divisions). The Royal Artillery use the term battery.

The defunct Royal Army Service Corps, Royal Pioneer Corps and Royal Army Ordnance Corps had companies; the Royal Corps of Transport had squadrons.

British companies are usually commanded by a major, the officer commanding (OC), with a captain or senior lieutenant as second-in-command (2i/c). The company headquarters also includes a company sergeant major (CSM) normally holding the rank of WO2 and a company quartermaster sergeant (CQMS) of colour sergeant rank, the two most senior soldiers in the company.

The Honourable Artillery Company is in fact a regiment, not a company in terms of organisation and size.

Primary Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_%28military_unit%29

Good Hunting.

MR


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RE: The BAOR - 3/25/2013 12:28:29 PM   
Gunnulf

 

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To clarify there are 3 rifle platoons in a company. As it happens I was a platoon commander in the Messines company you mention :)
If you want anything double checked or clarified on the BAOR or the British Army in general to ensure the game is as authentic as possible feel free to PM me, more than willing to help. I served in Germany couple times, albeit after the 80s but have plenty of knowledge of the ORBAT and tactics of those olden days.

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RE: The BAOR - 3/25/2013 2:37:11 PM   
Capn Darwin


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Gunnulf, thanks for the offer. We may take you up on that. We are always interested in hearing a more detailed breakdown of OOB and doctrine from someone who was really there.

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RE: The BAOR - 3/25/2013 3:16:31 PM   
CarnageINC


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I hope you guys do your homework on this one. BAOR is a complicated OoB for the Eightys IMO...looking forward to see what you guys got.

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RE: The BAOR - 3/25/2013 3:47:39 PM   
Capn Darwin


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Carnage,

I am sure we have things wrong here and there. Depending on what you read, where the info is from or who you talk to, you never get the same answer twice. That is one of the driving forces behind having the game as mod friendly as we can. If we got it wrong or you want to change values to suit your needs, the game will allow for it. Then you can post your work for others to use and no doubt edit themselves.



_____________________________

New OTS Website! 2.05 Patch file is there! Working on too many things!

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and resident Rocket Scientist

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RE: The BAOR - 3/26/2013 2:15:17 PM   
Mad Russian


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I work off of a very extensive Order of Battle, backed up by as many books on the subject as I can get my hands on. As it goes we're doing as well as we can to get it right. I'm sure we'll miss the mark in few spots but I think we will hit the mark more than we miss it.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
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Post #: 8
RE: The BAOR - 3/26/2013 3:10:32 PM   
Capn Darwin


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We are more accurate than the ground hog...

_____________________________

New OTS Website! 2.05 Patch file is there! Working on too many things!

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Post #: 9
RE: The BAOR - 3/26/2013 8:03:21 PM   
Mad Russian


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And here is the BAOR in living color....1st Battalion, The Green Howards, to the front! Warriors one and all!!


Good Hunting.

MR




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 3/26/2013 8:04:41 PM >


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Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
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RE: The BAOR - 3/26/2013 8:05:37 PM   
Mad Russian


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Just as in the glory days the heavy units take the field.

Good Hunting.

MR




Attachment (1)

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Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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RE: The BAOR - 3/26/2013 8:07:03 PM   
Mad Russian


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The Royal Scots Dragoons want to participate in this meet as well.

Good Hunting.

MR




Attachment (1)

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The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

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Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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RE: The BAOR - 3/26/2013 8:08:12 PM   
Mad Russian


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The Queens Royal Dragoons are not to be left out of this fight.

Good Hunting.

MR




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

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Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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RE: The BAOR - 3/26/2013 8:08:50 PM   
Mad Russian


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I would think those screen shots and the accompanying texts would give you enough information to identify that unit.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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RE: The BAOR - 4/1/2013 4:21:13 AM   
Mad Russian


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Mixing it up.

Good Hunting.

MR




Attachment (1)

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Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
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RE: The BAOR - 4/1/2013 4:40:06 PM   
Richie61


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Looking awesome guys!

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RE: The BAOR - 4/1/2013 11:46:53 PM   
wodin


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Maybe use initials for the name of the regiment? SO it fits on the counter..

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RE: The BAOR - 4/2/2013 4:59:21 AM   
Mad Russian


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British Army unit names are an issue. At the moment play balance is more important than getting the name to fit. But it will get addressed.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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RE: The BAOR - 4/2/2013 6:48:23 AM   
Richie61


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

British Army unit names are an issue. At the moment play balance is more important than getting the name to fit. But it will get addressed.

Good Hunting.

MR


Steve,

Just deploy a few Pershing-II's to Europe if those Warsaw Pact units seem to have the upper hand!

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To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

Sun Tzu




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Post #: 19
RE: The BAOR - 4/2/2013 2:33:46 PM   
Mad Russian


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I believe that may be an option in the game. Stay tuned to find out all the options that have been put into the game. For those of you that have played FPG you will be amazed at the new game play. I haven't checked to see the amount of code that has been changed or tweaked but it is far about 50%.

The BAOR in FPG was extremely capable. I played a scenario where Warrior IFV's defeated a Soviet attack that was led by T-80's. The above scenario has Warriors in it and the T-80's had those for a snack before moving on to bigger bites.

The game is nothing like it's predecessor. Game play was changed to up protect the innocent as well as increase the tempo and destructive nature of modern combat. The differences between the weapons systems and nationalities is evident with every scenario where you take a different side.

BAOR is fun but fragile. Just remember...I warned you!

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 4/2/2013 2:36:26 PM >


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Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

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RE: The BAOR - 4/2/2013 5:00:37 PM   
Capn Darwin


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The game is really a very different animal from FPG. A lot more under the hood in this new game engine. More data elements involved. More environmental factors taken into account. Couple that with high modability and a number of planned expansions and I think we will have a winner.

_____________________________

New OTS Website! 2.05 Patch file is there! Working on too many things!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations Developer,
and resident Rocket Scientist

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 21
RE: The BAOR - 4/2/2013 8:41:19 PM   
Richie61


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

The game is really a very different animal from FPG. A lot more under the hood in this new game engine. More data elements involved. More environmental factors taken into account. Couple that with high modability and a number of planned expansions and I think we will have a winner.


I am dying to buy this puppy now



_____________________________

To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

Sun Tzu




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Post #: 22
RE: The BAOR - 4/4/2013 3:02:16 AM   
Capn Darwin


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Testing the game with more tweaks and adjustments. Both forces ran into each other at close range and the fireworks started. Soviet Mi-24s are tearing up Challengers at close range. Really need those air defense chaps to step it up.



< Message edited by Capn Darwin -- 4/4/2013 3:03:27 AM >


_____________________________

New OTS Website! 2.05 Patch file is there! Working on too many things!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations Developer,
and resident Rocket Scientist

(in reply to Richie61)
Post #: 23
RE: The BAOR - 4/11/2013 12:41:08 PM   
Gunnulf

 

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Looks good, can't wait. Tactical map marking for British regiments was always difficult to get right when worked on the map table at Brigade HQ (for my sins..). Its always a shame to lose some of the flavour of the full name but some are obviously quite lengthy so a standard abbrev was used to avoid confusion, and cluttering the map. If you need any help with the authentically used map abbrev then I should be able to help on that front.
eg.
1st btln Green Howards = 1 GH. However the Green Howards were in fact a 'Light Role' btln part of 24 Airmobile brigade, not Warrior mounted. Sorry to 'rain on your parade' on that historical point :)

Royal Scots Dragoon Guards = SCOTS DG (not 1st btln, they were just 'The' I think..)

Not sure there ever was a Queens Royal Dragoons that I am aware of (but might be mistaken)? Do you mean Queens Dragoon Guards? (1 QDG) But that was Armoured Recce i.e Scimitar/Sabre not Challenger...

Others that might be useful from the 1989 ORBAT. Units generally rotated every 7 years but should be a useful reference for mid/late 80s:

1 UK ARM DIV

7 UK ARM BDE:
SCOTS DG (Challenger) = Royal Scots Dragoon Guards
2 RTR (Challenger) = 2 Royal Tank Regiment
1 STAFFORDS (Warrior) = 1 Staffordshires

12 UK ARM BDE:
4 RTR (Chieftain) = 4 Royal Tank Regiment
1 R IRISH (Fv432) = 1 Royal Irish Rangers
1 RGJ (Fv432) = 1 Royal Green Jackets

22 ARM BDE:
QOH (Chieftain) = Queens own Hussars
1 RTR (Fv432) = 1 Royal Tank Regiment
1 SG (Fv432) = 1 Scots Guards
2 R ANGLIAN (Fv432) = 2 Royal Anglian

4 Regt RA (M109A2) = 4 Field Regiment Royal Artillery (29/88/97 Field Batteries)
40 Regt RA (M109A2) = (38/129/137 Field Batteries + 10 Battery Javelin Air def)
1 RHA (Abbott) = 1 Royal Horse Artillery (A/B/E Batteries)
21 RE = 21 Field Regiment Royal Engineers
1 AAC (Gazelle/Lynx) = 1 Regiment Army Air Corps (651/652/661 Sqdn)

3 UK ARM DIV

4 ARM BDE:
14/20 KH (Challenger) = 14th/20th King Hussars
15/19 KH (Challenger) = 15th/19th Kings Hussars
17/21 L (Chieftain) = 17th/21st Lancers
1 GREN GDS (Warrior) = 1 Grenadier Guards

6 ARM BDE:
3 RTR (Challenger) = 3 Royal Tank Regiment
3 RRF (Warrior) = 3 Royal Regiment of Fusiliers
1 GORDONS (Warrior) = 1 Gordon Highlanders
2 LI (Light Role UK based) = 2 Light Infantry

33 ARM BDE:
5 INNIS DG (Cheiftain) = 5 Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards. Not 100% sure on this one as no longer exist but think correct...
1 QLR (Fv432) = 1 Queens Lancashire Regiment
1 RS (Warrior) = 1 Royal Scots (could be 1 R SCOTS too for better flavour)
1 HIGHLAND (Fv432) = Queens Own Highlanders

2 Regt RA (M109A2) = (L/N/O Batteries + 46 Battery Javelin Air Defence)
19 Regt RA (Abbott) = (13/25/28 Field Batteries + 111 Battery Javelin)
49 Regt RA (M109A2)
26 RE
3 AAC (Gazelle/Lynx) (653/662/663 Sqdn)
9/12 L (UK based Scimitar) 9th/12th Lancers

4 UK ARM DIV

11 ARM BDE:
1 A and SH (Saxon) = 1 Argyl & Sutherland Highlanders.
2 QUEENS (Fv432) = 2 Queens Regiment

20 ARM BDE:
RHG/D (Challenger) = Blues & Royals.
4/7 RDG (Challenger) = 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards
2 R IRISH (Fv432) = 2 Royal Irish Rangers

19 INF BDE: (UK based)
1 KORBR (Saxon) = 1 Kings own Royal Border Regiment
1 R ANGLIAN (Saxon) = 1 Royal Anglian
3 R ANGLIAN (saxon = 3 Royal Anglian
45 Regt RA (FH-70 155mm)

3 RA (M109A2)
47 RA (Abbott) + 21 Battery Javelin
35 RE
4 AAC (Gazelle/Lynx) = (654/659/669 Sqdn)

1 ART BDE:
5 Regt RA (M107) = (K/P Heavy Batteries + Q Locating battery)
32 Regt RA (M107) = (18/74 Heavy Batteries + 57 Locating Battery)
39 Regt RA (M110/M109A1) = (132/176/56 Heavy Batteries)
50 Regt RA (Lance) = (15/19/36 Missile Batteries)
12 Regt RA (Rapier) = (T/9/12/58 Air Defense Batteries)
22 Regt RA (Rapier) = (11/53/35/42 Air Defense Batteries)

16/5 L (Scimitar) = 16th/5th Lancers (Arm Recce assigned to 1 Arm Div)
1 QDG (Scimitar) = 1 Queens Dragoon Guards (Arm Recce assigned to 4 Arm Div)

23 RE
25 RE
32 RE

UK BERLIN INF BDE:
1 BW = 1 Black Watch
1 KINGS = 1 Kings Regiment
1 RBW = 1 Royal Berkshire & Wiltshire
1 LI = 1 Light Infantry
C Sqdn 14/20 H (Chieftain)

There were various other units slated to re-inforce the theatre like 2 INF DIV, 5 Airborne BDE (1 PARA, 2 PARA, 1 RGR) , 24 Airbobile BDE (1 GH, 1PYO) etc... I can source that too if useful. I have the entire NATO ORBAT from that time which I can supply. Its pretty unclassified now :)

Final note for scenario accuracy. For Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers & Army Air Corps regiments break down into batteries & squadrons some with letters, some with numbers (just to keep it simple..!). But the sub-units are not A/B/C like Armoured Regiments. I.e. 4 RA had 28, 88 & 97 Field Battery RA. 1 AAC had 651, 652 & 661 Squadrons. These are possible to source too.

Simple really... :)




< Message edited by Gunnulf -- 4/11/2013 2:14:20 PM >

(in reply to Capn Darwin)
Post #: 24
RE: The BAOR - 4/11/2013 4:22:52 PM   
Hexagon

 

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Nice, last pics are great BUT maybe now when i see the full screen with info and menus i feel like the 2D terrain art is not in the right place, the "modern" look around crash with the map terrain... really is the only point in game i dislike specially after see the art in other recent games.

Lets see what can do BAOR, if they are lions or mouses

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RE: The BAOR - 4/11/2013 10:16:41 PM   
Capn Darwin


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There are other posts dealing with the map art and why it is what it is. The idea was to have the map display the essential information with out a lot of effort. Elevations can be seen. Fields, woods, and cities all stand out. Major roads and rivers are shown in a simple but understandable manner. Having editing capability and using the same 3rd party tools we use folks will be able to make their own maps and can go crazy on the details. When we are making 30+ maps having to hand edit all of the per hex values for over 1200 hexes get time consuming. The map art was tweaked (a lot) to use an automapping routing in the game. That saved hours of work time per map.

Hope that explains it a bit better.

_____________________________

New OTS Website! 2.05 Patch file is there! Working on too many things!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
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and resident Rocket Scientist

(in reply to Hexagon)
Post #: 26
RE: The BAOR - 4/12/2013 2:09:27 PM   
wodin


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I see the Brits are in platoon scale units and most of the Russians are in Coy..can you breakdown the coy units to platoon and vice versa?

Interesting to see how LOS comes into play..wargames in Germany by NATO found the average engagement range due to terrain was between 1500m and 2000m. As the tanks have ranges of 6000m it will be interesting to see how it works out and if engagement ranges are within realistic levels.

< Message edited by wodin -- 4/12/2013 2:12:34 PM >


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RE: The BAOR - 4/13/2013 4:02:09 AM   
Mad Russian


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The US Army did a study after WWII and found that the average engagement range during the campaign in NWE was actually around 400 meters. Since 1945 Europe has become more congested not less. That would make me believe the engagement ranges from WWII would come down not go up.

The one thing that could change that is thermal sights.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 28
RE: The BAOR - 4/13/2013 4:23:58 AM   
Mad Russian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf

Looks good, can't wait. Tactical map marking for British regiments was always difficult to get right when worked on the map table at Brigade HQ (for my sins..). Its always a shame to lose some of the flavour of the full name but some are obviously quite lengthy so a standard abbrev was used to avoid confusion, and cluttering the map. If you need any help with the authentically used map abbrev then I should be able to help on that front.
eg.
1st btln Green Howards = 1 GH. However the Green Howards were in fact a 'Light Role' btln part of 24 Airmobile brigade, not Warrior mounted. Sorry to 'rain on your parade' on that historical point :)

Royal Scots Dragoon Guards = SCOTS DG (not 1st btln, they were just 'The' I think..)

Not sure there ever was a Queens Royal Dragoons that I am aware of (but might be mistaken)? Do you mean Queens Dragoon Guards? (1 QDG) But that was Armoured Recce i.e Scimitar/Sabre not Challenger...



Below you will see the information listing I have for the British 1st Armored Division. What you are seeing on the map is the 12th Armoured Brigade. The ORBATS we use have been extensively researched.

Not saying they are perfect but been checked and cross checked for accuracy. The British Army units are the hardest in the world to get right.


We've spent a lot of time trying to both the units and the equipment correct for 1989 specifically. Just having the units doesn't help that much we needed the equipment they were armed with as well to make scenarios as accurate as possible. To create the scenario editor data base for basic units as well.

Any additional information is always welcome.

2. 1st British Corps GHQ - Bielefeld, FRG: assigned to BAOR

a. 1st Armoured Division - Verden, FRG:

1) 7th Armoured Brigade - Soltau, FRG: 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan, and 4 Ferret
a) 2nd Royal Tank Regiment: 56 Challenger, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
b) 2nd Bn, The Coldstream Guards: 45 Warrior, 4 Sultan, 8 Scimitar, 26 FV432, 7 Ferret, 8 81mm Mtr, 24 Milan
c) 1st Bn, The Staffordshire Regt: 45 Warrior, 4 Sultan, 8 Scimitar, 26 FV432, 7 Ferret, 8 81mm Mtr, 24 Milan

2) 12th Armoured Brigade - Osnabruck, FRG: 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan, and 4 Ferret
a) The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards: 56 Challenger, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
b) 1st The Queens Royal Dragoon Guards: 70 Chieftain, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
c) 1st Bn, The Green Howards: 45 Warrior, 4 Sultan, 8 Scimitar, 26 FV432, 7 Ferret, 8 81mm Mtr, 24 Milan

3) 22nd Armoured Brigade - Hohne, FRG: 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan, and 4 Ferret
a) The 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards: 56 Challenger, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
b) 2nd Bn, The Grenadier Guards: 45 Warrior, 4 Sultan, 8 Scimitar, 26 FV432, 7 Ferret, 8 81mm Mtr, 24 Milan
c) 1st Bn, The Royal Anglican Regiment: 71 FV432, 4 Sultan, 7 Ferret, 8 Scimitar, 8 81mm Mortar, 24 Milan

4) 1st Division Artillery Group - Hohne, FRG:
a) 4th Royal Artillery Regiment: 24 M109A2
b) 45th Royal Artillery Regiment: 24 M109A2
c) 1st Royal Artillery Regiment: 24 Abbot 105mm SP howitzers

5) 21st Royal Engineer Regiment - Nienburg, FRG: 30 FV432, 12 Spartan, 12 AVRE, and 12 AVLB

6) 1st Air Defense Regiment - Hildesheim, FRG: 6 Rapier, 36 Javelin

7) 1st Royal Army Aviation Regiment - Hildesheim, FRG: 24 Lynx (TOW), 24 Gazelle

Good Hunting.


< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 4/13/2013 4:33:47 AM >


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(in reply to Gunnulf)
Post #: 29
RE: The BAOR - 4/13/2013 9:32:38 PM   
Gunnulf

 

Posts: 89
Joined: 10/31/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunnulf

Looks good, can't wait. Tactical map marking for British regiments was always difficult to get right when worked on the map table at Brigade HQ (for my sins..). Its always a shame to lose some of the flavour of the full name but some are obviously quite lengthy so a standard abbrev was used to avoid confusion, and cluttering the map. If you need any help with the authentically used map abbrev then I should be able to help on that front.
eg.
1st btln Green Howards = 1 GH. However the Green Howards were in fact a 'Light Role' btln part of 24 Airmobile brigade, not Warrior mounted. Sorry to 'rain on your parade' on that historical point :)

Royal Scots Dragoon Guards = SCOTS DG (not 1st btln, they were just 'The' I think..)

Not sure there ever was a Queens Royal Dragoons that I am aware of (but might be mistaken)? Do you mean Queens Dragoon Guards? (1 QDG) But that was Armoured Recce i.e Scimitar/Sabre not Challenger...



Below you will see the information listing I have for the British 1st Armored Division. What you are seeing on the map is the 12th Armoured Brigade. The ORBATS we use have been extensively researched.

Not saying they are perfect but been checked and cross checked for accuracy. The British Army units are the hardest in the world to get right.


We've spent a lot of time trying to both the units and the equipment correct for 1989 specifically. Just having the units doesn't help that much we needed the equipment they were armed with as well to make scenarios as accurate as possible. To create the scenario editor data base for basic units as well.

Any additional information is always welcome.

2. 1st British Corps GHQ - Bielefeld, FRG: assigned to BAOR

a. 1st Armoured Division - Verden, FRG:

1) 7th Armoured Brigade - Soltau, FRG: 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan, and 4 Ferret
a) 2nd Royal Tank Regiment: 56 Challenger, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
b) 2nd Bn, The Coldstream Guards: 45 Warrior, 4 Sultan, 8 Scimitar, 26 FV432, 7 Ferret, 8 81mm Mtr, 24 Milan
c) 1st Bn, The Staffordshire Regt: 45 Warrior, 4 Sultan, 8 Scimitar, 26 FV432, 7 Ferret, 8 81mm Mtr, 24 Milan

2) 12th Armoured Brigade - Osnabruck, FRG: 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan, and 4 Ferret
a) The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards: 56 Challenger, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
b) 1st The Queens Royal Dragoon Guards: 70 Chieftain, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
c) 1st Bn, The Green Howards: 45 Warrior, 4 Sultan, 8 Scimitar, 26 FV432, 7 Ferret, 8 81mm Mtr, 24 Milan

3) 22nd Armoured Brigade - Hohne, FRG: 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan, and 4 Ferret
a) The 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards: 56 Challenger, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
b) 2nd Bn, The Grenadier Guards: 45 Warrior, 4 Sultan, 8 Scimitar, 26 FV432, 7 Ferret, 8 81mm Mtr, 24 Milan
c) 1st Bn, The Royal Anglican Regiment: 71 FV432, 4 Sultan, 7 Ferret, 8 Scimitar, 8 81mm Mortar, 24 Milan

4) 1st Division Artillery Group - Hohne, FRG:
a) 4th Royal Artillery Regiment: 24 M109A2
b) 45th Royal Artillery Regiment: 24 M109A2
c) 1st Royal Artillery Regiment: 24 Abbot 105mm SP howitzers

5) 21st Royal Engineer Regiment - Nienburg, FRG: 30 FV432, 12 Spartan, 12 AVRE, and 12 AVLB

6) 1st Air Defense Regiment - Hildesheim, FRG: 6 Rapier, 36 Javelin

7) 1st Royal Army Aviation Regiment - Hildesheim, FRG: 24 Lynx (TOW), 24 Gazelle

Good Hunting.



Few initial thoughts, but will need to double check the rest:

100% sure it was 2 R ANGLIAN (not 1 R ANGLICAN. Thats my first regiment. 2 btln was in Germany, 1st Btln UK based but in Northern Ireland in 89 i think).
I have checked and also 100% sure that 1 Green Howards were 24 Airmobile Bde in the UK in 1989. Checked from the biography of the commanding officer.
It was 100% 1 GREN GDS (not 2 GREN GDS). They deployed to Gulf war I.
1 Queens Dragoon Guards were an armoured recce regiment with Scorpion/Scimitar not Chieftain.

On the other units it could be a timing issue between sources. Likesay btln units rotated every few years, bdes stayed in location. I will do some more searching to see whether my listing in my post above are valid. PM me an email address and I'll send you the source file i used. I am really confident that this orbat is correct for 89:

1 UK ARM DIV

7 UK ARM BDE:
SCOTS DG (Challenger) = Royal Scots Dragoon Guards
2 RTR (Challenger) = 2 Royal Tank Regiment
1 STAFFORDS (Warrior) = 1 Staffordshires

12 UK ARM BDE:
4 RTR (Chieftain) = 4 Royal Tank Regiment
1 R IRISH (Fv432) = 1 Royal Irish Rangers
1 RGJ (Fv432) = 1 Royal Green Jackets

22 ARM BDE:
QOH (Chieftain) = Queens own Hussars
1 RTR (Chieftain) = 1 Royal Tank Regiment
1 SG (Fv432) = 1 Scots Guards
2 R ANGLIAN (Fv432) = 2 Royal Anglian

4 Regt RA (M109A2) = 4 Field Regiment Royal Artillery (29/88/97 Field Batteries)
40 Regt RA (M109A2) = (38/129/137 Field Batteries + 10 Battery Javelin Air def)
1 RHA (Abbott) = 1 Royal Horse Artillery (A/B/E Batteries)
21 Regt RE = 21 Field Regiment Royal Engineers
1 AAC (Gazelle/Lynx) = 1 Regiment Army Air Corps (651/652/661 Sqdn)
1 QDG (scimatar/scorpion = 1 Queens Dragoon Guards. Arm Recce Regt attached from Corps

Some naming conventions:

Queens Dragoon Guards (nor Queens Royal Dragoon Guards)
1 Royal Horse Artillery or 1 RHA (not 1st Royal Artillery Regiment)
1 Regt Army Air Corps (not Royal Army Aviation Regiment)
Also should read 40 Regiment RA or 40 Regt RA (not 40th Royal Artillery Regiment)
Same for engineers i.e. 21 Regiment RE or 21 Regt RE

Small points I know but they all stand out like a sore thumb to veterans. Makes more sense when you break down then into batteries & squadrons. i.e. 11 Field Squadron RE

Kit:

For the most part looks ok, however I really don't think Ferrets were used by any BAOR units as late as 89 in any meaningful combat fuction. They are listed in orbats start of 80s as 5-8 per arm regt. 1 per regt & squadron HQ. More as liason vehicle running around rather than an AFV. It was off the combat ORBAT really.

I will look into the units more later





< Message edited by Gunnulf -- 4/13/2013 11:53:13 PM >

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 30
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