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Walloc's russian factory evac guide

 
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Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/22/2012 4:02:00 PM   
Walloc

 

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This is work in progress and not complete yet, but comments most welcome. Do ppl understand it, am i too inclusive and so on?


Walloc's russian factory evac guide based on rules as is per 1.06.13


Comments are welcome. Pointing out errors, improving my horrendous formulation "abilities", other ways of doing it, or discussion on the stuff that is up for debate.


1. Tank/AFV/Combat vehicles/Aircrafts

Things u need to know. When you evac a factory of this type you remove any factors left behind. So if u evac 1 point of a 7 point LA-5 factory the remaining 6 is removed. They arent and in most cases not necesarrily lost for ever. When a factory of this type is fully repaired it will expand up too its build up limit as given for that factory, at the given point in time. How ever you will naturally lose production overall. While there are a chance for producing while damage, ill come back to that later, it will be at a lower level, its only a chance and the possibilty of the factory could have expanded further if not evaced is a factor too.

When you evac a factory in of any type the factory will be damaged. What determains by how much is depending on 2 factors. How large the factory is when evaced and how large a portion of the factory that is evaced. If u evac a 100% of factory's current capacity it will be 50% damaged. If u evaced not that its possible 0% it will be 100% damaged. The level of damage in beetween is pretty liniar. So in case of the above 7 point LA-5, if u evac 4(3 over, 3 under) it will be at 72% damage about just at half inbetween 50 and 100%.
Now if the factory had been 24 point large and to evac 4 points the damage to the evaced factory is 92% because 4 out of 26 is such a low % of over all factory. Math is 4/26*100 ~ 15%. 15% of the 50 difference between 50 and 100 ~ 7.5 rounded off to the 8%. 100%-8% = 92%.
A factory of this type repairs with a fixed 3% per turn. When a factory is at below 50% damage it has a chance of producing.
The closer to 0% damage the greater the chance. Math is again liniar so at 25% damage it will have 50% chance of producing that turn.
This means that a factory at 72% damaged will take 24 turns to fully repair and then starting to expand towards the build limit generally at 1 per turn. 8 turns until the possibility of production. 92% would take 31 turns before fully repaired and 14 turns until it can possibly start to produce.

What does that mean. It means at times, certinaly not always, there are a point in evacing factories as early as possible. If u wait the factory will be larger so even of u evac the same points as earlier on teh factory will be more damaged. Taking longer time before it give a chance of production and also before its fully repaired and are able to expand.
Or u will later on will have to evac a larger portion of the factory = more RR cap to ensure the same repair time.

Enough of that. IMO, there are 7 factories of this type that are imperitive that is evaced. I dont care, if u have to evac 1 point of them, dont ever lose them! If a german is within MPs of being able to ZoC it out, preventing evac, then evac the factory. Ofc this should be taken with a grain of salt and common sense. im not saying its the best way to do the evac. Just saying these factories are essential for ur long time warfaring abilties. So just evac 1 point if that is what is possible, if threatned, just do it!

Its the KV factory in Leningrad, the 4 IL2 factories(2 in moscow, 2 in Voronez, the LI2(transport) factory at Khimki near Moscow and the Pe 2R near Moscow
Why. KV is non essential to the russian war efford, but that factory is 50% of ur potential IS tank production. Russian got preciously few things that can kill panthers and tigers in the later part of the war and here is 50% of ur tank production of that.
IL2s this is the primary ground attack aircraft u will have. Im a big believer in streamlining production so i prefere to have as few types of aircraft doing 1 job. This aircraft gives u the ability and does it well enough. Even if u dont care for that sorta thing and want variation when looking at the production number this aircraft will be by far the most used aircraft u will have. Its simply a question of numbers.
LI2. Only real transport aircraft with any range u have until u get the C-47s in feb 43. Will help on the potential of airdrops and eliviates the use of heavy bombers for partisan supply drops.
PE-2R factory at Moscow. U get preciously few new recon aircrafts with any kinds a legs as russian. This is 50% of em and u will need em!

Now to the optimized part deal with each and every factory that is in danger.

Leningrad
YAK 6, Evac 1 point, turn 3-5. You dont get many transport aircraft so i find i worthy to evac, tho its debateble if its worth it. Evac only 1 cuz it enters production 12/42 giving plenty a time to fully repair and fully expand with only 1 evaced.

KV-1 M1941 Evac 1 point, turn 3-5. Debateble if u have the RR cap to spare there are merits in doing more. Up too around 15 has merit. I prefere to save the RR cap tho. U dont have many uses for the KV-1. While an excellent tank it self there are so few spots in ToE that they dont have any real effect and the other factory u have should produce enough until this factory is repaired and expanded. Yes there might be a shortage in around late 41 early 42 but thats it after that u should see any short fall. Since this factory eventually converts to 50% of late game IS tanks its a must to get out.

BA 10. Leave! Stops producion 9/41 and doesnt upgrade to any thing else. Waste of RR cap to evac, and if so chance are u gona lose the production cuz of damaged state.

T-50 Evac 1 point, turn 3-5. In it self nothign worth while, but it upgrades to T-34/42 7/42. Evacing just 1 point give time to fully repair(33 turns, expand 7 = 40 turns well before 7/42.


Kharkov
T-34 Factory. Not the most importand as u sorta have enough but non less i prefere to evac it. 15 points should be doable early(turn 5-8) on and gives ok time to repair and expand to when T-34/M42 become operationally. Note here that he T-34/M41 has a build limit of 75, M42 62. This means that there is limited idea in fully evacing it cuz it wil be fully reparied and expanded just about the time that it goes from 75 to 62, making the expansion of those 13 turns not worth much since they are removed any how. Again one of those i'd evac 1 if germans are within Mp to zoc/take city. 1 tho it will take long to repair and expand its better than nothing.

Su 2 factory. Leave! Stops production 12/1941, doesnt upgrade. Leave it.


Taganrog
LaGG-3 Leave. Stops production in 7/42 doesnt upgrade. U get better fighter aircrafts and enough of em so i dont think this one is worth the cap rail. If u wana evac them do all. Else they wont have time to repair and expand until production stops.

LaGG-3 29 series evac 1 point turn 8-12 or before. Doesnt start to produce until 8/42 and evacing one at that time gives time to fully repair and expand or near fully expand at time of production
As per Flaviusx and M60A3TTS. Question if its worth evacing. From a RR cap point of view evacing 1 point is next to nothing(1560 IIRC) so it isnt really that, that stops the evac. So we down to a pure Hi/supply issue vs having a pool of aircrafts u might not use. More on the possible supply problems later on. That said ill leave it for now for another reason. There was a rumor(from Denniss) a few months ago that in the next database patch the LaGG-3 29/66 series was gona get a boost in stats. I wouldnt mind seeing those for a re evaluation before making a "final" judgement.


Voronezh
IL2 *2. Evac 4 points each on turn 3/4.. Debateble choice to use rail cap on this so early. My point of doing it this early is that they havent expanded much yet which means the time before fully repaired and start to expand will be around start of 42 where u will start to be able to use them. Doing it later with same evac amount and they will be damaged more postponing the time until its fully repaired and will expand. Limiting production in 42. Or they RR used to get larger parts out is a hinderance later on. What ever u do get 1 of each out no matter what.

Flaviusx Notes: Personally, I don't bother evacuating anything from Voronezh until around turn 10. Yes, this will be somewhat inefficient from a production standpoint, but I'm more interested in structuring my evacuation for denial of targets, and that means stuff that far in the rear is going to have to wait. It's more important to get things out of immediate danger first. I'm working on Poltava and Kharkov on turn 3-4. operational requirements > production efficiencies in this case.
I dont disagree if that is what is needed, just never found it to be needed and u can overall save RR cap by doing it early. Spend 40k for all 4 facs, now instead of possibly 2-3 times as much later.


IL 10, evac 1 point before city falls. Doesnt get into production until 45 so will have more than enough to time to repair and fully expand when evacing only 1. Not the most importand factory to get out since it starts to produce so late in the war that it has very limited effect.


Moscow Area
LI-2, evac as much as possible when get spare RR cap. Only long legged transport aircraft before the C-47. Has many uses so i like to get it fully out when ever i get free RR cap. As it will so soon will expand to its 9 build limit that it doesnt pay to evac early. Its one of the evac just 1 if threatned candidates.

LI-2VP, dont evac or move 1 point to where it will be captured. An ok aircraft with nice payload and range but its very limited production and my liking of streamlining i dont use this aircraft. If of the same opinion and assuming u dont find it gamey its a candidate to be moved forward to save a bit of supply that is used in building it. From now on known as move stuff to Flav's front yard. All those bits and byts will make a beautifull piece of art some day!

IL2 *2 evac 4 each points turn 3/4. Debateble. Yes u can wait with these. They arent in imidiate danger, but logic is same as descriped for IL2s at Voronezh. Its one of the evac just 1 if threatned candidates. Get em out!

IL10, evac 1 point before city falls. Doesnt get into production until 45 so will have more than enough to time to repair and fully expand when evacing only 1. Not the most importand factory to get out since it starts to produce so late in the war that it has very limited effect.

IL-4 evac fully before city falls/during mud. IL-4 is the heavy bomber of choice, periode. This is 1/3 of the production. Importand to get out. One of those that are evac just 1 candidates if threatned. It is an aircraft u will use. Is next on my list after the 7 mentioned, but not making the list cuz u do produce them in numbers in safer places.

Pe-2R evac fully at first possible oppertunity. Usually in the turn 10-14 span This is 50% of ur long legged recon planes, get it out! Costs around 11k to get out so its one of those cases if i have 11k RR cap left after doing other stuff any where in turn 5-10 i will take it out over a single arm or what ever ppl might do. 100% a 1 point evac candidate if threatned.

MIG-3 *2 Leave. Stops production 12/41 doesnt upgrade. While an importand figther aircraft early on, the stop date doesnt justify using rail cap or the lost production actually evacing it.

YAK-7A evac a few early if spare RR cap or wait until mud and evac all/just 1 if needed. Starts producing at 12/41 which gives several options. U have some time to repair and possibily expand or doing soon after enter production if u move turn 3-4-5 early on if u have the spare RR cap. Not losing any produciton or much. If not wait until mud assuming city doesnt fall before and get them out there. A evac just 1 candidate as it continuesly upgrades during the war and is an fine aircraft.

U-2VS Leave, possibly move to be captured candiadate Opinions on this plane/series differ. Some have used it for night attacks for extra losses and it all helps. Others are on the firm this is piece of utter crap all it does it use supply to be made. Using it just takes resources as in supply/vehicles/manpower on airbases that could be put to much better use. In that view its a canditate for moved forward to be captured, if u dont consider that gamey. Personally im on the its piece of crap bandwagon. How ever u view it it should really be on the buttom of ur totempole evac wise.

T-40 M41 evac full or near before city falls/mud/Snow/Blizzard. Upgrades to T-60 and again to Su 76 serie. It provides a portion of ur CV through out the war tho especially in 42 as it T 60 makes up nice part of the ToE aka CV of ur tank force. Unfortunatly the CV it gives, more or less only last until they spot an enemy that just have an inkling of a AT gun. Which means u need huge numbers made. So it is a 1 evac candidate if threatned but overall of stuff in Moscow area its down on the list.

Pe-2 evac what u can before city falls/mud/Snow/Blizzard, but Pe-2 are nice aircrafts that will team well with ur IL-2s This factory is 50% of the production, so it makes it a 1 point evac candidate if threatned.

Pe-3 evac 1 each point turn 7-8-9 The low production numbers doesnt make it worth much IMO, but it upgrades to Pe-3bis in april 42(turn 42) and well of the prepare for any thing kinda type and u dont get that many night figthers. So its taken out as a precautionary meassure. If taken out with 1 point in the time periode it gives it will have time to repair and expand to the max 5 before upgrades to P-3bis. Math is 1 out = 90% damage= 30 turns of repair and 4 turns to expand to 5. If wait u take it out later u will need to take out 2 or 3 depending on date. It has a very short production run of only 4 months so if u want this plane it needs to be at full production come april 42. The 4 months production wont take out that much supply in making any how. It stops producing and no supply use after 8/42.

Thats the factories those in immediate danger.

Then a discussion about merits of using spare rail cap during the blizzard and spring 42 periode to evac factories futher back.
There are factories not mentioned in the immediate danger section, but which stil arel fairly close to the front, for example like Yaroslav and Tambov. Those should defernately be evaced when u spare RR cap come some time in the blizzard periode. Goes for both the tank/aircraft type factories and arms/HI/vehicle type.
My assumption is that u will still have lots of RR cap to spare over all from dec 41 to june 42. This begs the question, if u expect just any kinda 42 axis offensive and u might not know exactly where it will fall. If it has merit in evacing stuff futher back like Stalingrad, Saratov and Gorky area's.
If u ask me the answer is yes. Assuming u do it in a way where u fully evac factories, maxing the damage to 50%. U will lose production, but doing it that way u will on average lose 50% of the production for the 17 turns it takes until repaired.
When it comes to tank like T 34, T 60 u have spare production. So i no reason not to do it, covering all eventuallties.
When it comes to aircraft espeically the figthers. i willl still do it, but it can use a delicate touch. U in the process of building up ur air regiments with the newer types so lost production is a factor. If u decide to do it. Either have a certain number off X aircraft in the pool before u start to evac or space out the evac if several factories of same type. So u dont get into a situasion where since just after evacing even fully the chance of production is still so low u might not get any. No need to find ur self in a situasion where ur pool dries up if it can be avoided.

Notes:
La 5 starts to produce in 5/42. So if u evac it in late Dec 41/ early Jan 42 it will be or almost fully repaired come production day. So u dont have to lose any or much production on those if evacing them from the Gorky area in dec/jan.
La 5FNs starts production in 4/43 so u can freely evac them until late in 42 and still get full production.
BA 64 production start 4/42 so if facs in Gorky/Murom area are evaced in dec 41 they will be fully or near repaired come prodcution.
T-70 got a 3/42 start production date. So if evaced early dec 41 they are near fully repaired come production date
Yak 3 free evac until late 43.
OT 34 starts production 7/42 so free evac if before 3/42.
LaGG 3 leave! stops production 8/42 no need to disrupt the production

All those types not mentioned u will lose production from if evaced. As per above i would still do em, cuz come a surprise 42 offensive u will only have arm/hi/vehicles to evac and that can usually be done in a turn or 2 from each of those area's. Leaving u in a much better situasion come such eventuallity.

U-2 series dicussion vs a potential supply shortage in 42. It has been noted by several player that if they have an large army come 42 and with a "normal" evacuation of HI, making then low prioverty. U can find ur self in supply problems. There are so many factors playing into it that u cant give a hard limit from the best recogning at moment is that if u get above 7.5-8m u might run into this issue.
Since each Tank/AFV/Combat vehicles/Aircrafts produced costs supply it raises the question if there is some of those that u never use and they will just enter ur pools. Since there is no way per say to turn production off, it has lead some players to use a tactic of evacing these into teeth of the germans in effect destroying em like that. Saving u supply. This use has an ethical side too it. Ill leave that up too ur selfs.
As noted earlier some players find the U-2 series espcially useless making it a prime candidate for this tactic.
The series consist of several types.
U-2VS light bomber. The lack of interchangebility of other aircraft mean it can just be moved forward with no futher thot
U-2 transport. Early on this is the aircraft that creates, new tranport regiments. Which means u need it until u have created enough regiments u can swicth out with other types. U have a number of tranport aircrafts in the inital pool plus u want to convert some to LI-2 regiments So u cant move it forward initially, but will have to wait until u have build of a pool of these regiments.
U-2 recon. This is the aircraft that creates, new recon regiments. Which means u need it until u have created enough regiments u can swicth out with other types, like R-5 and the SB-2 recon u have in the pool, plus the Re-2R u eventually will want. So u cant move it forward initially but need to wait until u have created a number of air recon regiments in the national reserve.

Flaviusx any further thots or comments?

< Message edited by Walloc -- 7/26/2012 6:40:46 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/22/2012 4:32:53 PM   
Flaviusx


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You forgot to mention the factories you want to rail forward into the welcoming hands of the Axis: the U2V. Eventually, I'd add all the U2 variants to that, but early on you kind of want the recon and transport versions, if only to quickly raise regiments and then swap those out to real airplanes. Once you've got a half dozen transport regiments and enough recon to put 1 regiment per front, then those can be railed forward for capture as well. You need only rail 1 factory for each of these to do the job, of course.

The Li2VP is another candidate for this treatment. Production is super low and it just complicates matters. Just make the Il-4 your go to long range level bomber and be done with it. (Supplemented by lend lease models, particularly the B-25.) In practice, this is usually not necessary as the hex it is produced in tends to be captured anyways (but do save the Li2 transport which is in that same hex.)

Personally, I don't bother evacuating anything from Voronezh until around turn 10. Yes, this will be somewhat inefficient from a production standpoint, but I'm more interested in structuring my evacuation for denial of targets, and that means stuff that far in the rear is going to have to wait. It's more important to get things out of immediate danger first. I'm working on Poltava and Kharkov on turn 3-4. Operational requirements > production efficiencies in this case.



< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 7/22/2012 4:37:08 PM >


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RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/22/2012 4:38:00 PM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

You forgot to mention the factories you want to rail forward into the welcoming hands of the Axis: the U2V. Eventually, I'd add all the U2 variants to that, but early on you kind of want the recon and transport versions, if only to quickly raise regiments and then swap those out to real airplanes. Once you've got a half dozen transport regiments and enough recon to put 1 regiment per front, then those can be railed forward for capture as well. You need only rail 1 factory for each of these to do the job, of course.

The Li2VP is another candidate for this treatment. Production is super low and it just complicates matters. Just make the Il-4 your go to long range level bomber and be done with it. (Supplemented by lend lease models, particularly the B-25.) In practice, this is usually not necessary as the hex it is produced in tends to be captured anyways (but do save the Li2 transport which is in that same hex.)




hehe Flav writing this as i type, just havent gotten to that yet. as said work in progress, but thx for mention it.

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RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/22/2012 4:44:34 PM   
gingerbread


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How to move the Tula and Stalino ARM.

Due to the damage to factories moved, you want to move a small (5 & 9) part first in one turn and the a large 20 pt in a later turn. That way, the 20 pt will have 50% damage and will get back on line fastest.

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RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/22/2012 4:57:54 PM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

How to move the Tula and Stalino ARM.

Due to the damage to factories moved, you want to move a small (5 & 9) part first in one turn and the a large 20 pt in a later turn. That way, the 20 pt will have 50% damage and will get back on line fastest.


Well there are pro's and con's and ill show the math when i get to arm, hi and vehicles factories. Then ppl can make up their own mind then.
Thx for mention it, it certainly has merit.

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 7/22/2012 5:06:40 PM >

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RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/22/2012 5:58:12 PM   
Flaviusx


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On reflection I'm wondering if the LaGG-3 29 is worth evacuating. Down the line, I really just want Yaks (of various flavors) and La-5s and these are produced in great quantity. The LaGG-3 29 eventually upgrades to the LaGG-3 33 and ends there, and both these airframes are sidegrades at best and not that attractive compared to other models. Nor are they produced in huge numbers compared to the other models. I tend to switch over the vast majority of LaGG-3 to Yak 7s anyways, the 29 series production isn't sufficient to support the amount of LaGG-3 regiments created in 41.

Like the Mig 3 line, the LaGG 3 seems like sort of a dead end.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 7/22/2012 5:59:41 PM >


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RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/22/2012 11:36:51 PM   
M60A3TTS

 

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I haven't bothered with the LaGG3-29s and felt no ill effect from their absence. The Lavochkin's can pretty much go from LaGG3 to La-5/5F/5FN. Plus the 29's are a short production run aircraft, i.e. less than one year.

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RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/23/2012 12:27:17 AM   
Walloc

 

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I hear u both. From a RR cap point of view evacing 1 point is next to nothing(1560 IIRC) so it isnt really that, that stops the evac. So we down to a pure Hi/supply issue vs having a pool of aircrafts u might not use. ill note ur concerns for that.
That said ill leave it for now for another reason. There was a rumor(from Denniss) a few months ago that in the next database patch the LaGG-3 29/66 series was gona get a boost in stats. I wouldnt mind seeing those for a re evaluation before making a "final" judgement.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



< Message edited by Walloc -- 7/23/2012 4:28:27 AM >

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RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/23/2012 4:21:47 PM   
Walloc

 

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Bump. 1st draft of the First section Tank/AFV/combat vehicles/aircrafts done. Section 2 is Arm/Hi/vehicles.

< Message edited by Walloc -- 7/23/2012 4:22:19 PM >

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RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/26/2012 3:57:36 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Great STUFF Walloc!!!!

Just wish I had it a few turns ago in my PBEM - would have save me some railcap!!

Keep it coming with some pointers on HI and Arms.

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RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/26/2012 5:01:44 PM   
Schmart

 

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Interesting stuff. I had never even thought about considering if/when an aircraft or vehicle stops production and that it wouldn't be worthwhile to evacuate it. This raises the question though, as to should it even be possible to evacuate aircraft and vehicle factories that stop production within 8-12 months from the start of the campaign? Why not just make those factories unavailable to evacuate, reduce the overall soviet rail cap by the average amount to evacuate all those 'useless' factories, and call it even. It's kind of wasted time/energy for a player to go through and check to see if the aircraft will stop production before 1942 and then decide not to evacuate. Why make the Mig-3 factories available for evacuation if evacuating them brings no possible benifit whatsoever?

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RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/26/2012 5:29:43 PM   
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Very nice job, good stuff.

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RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/26/2012 6:05:24 PM   
lycortas

 

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The whole Mig 3 situation has bothered me from the start. This game has models even I have barely heard of and i am essentially an expert on aircraft, but then puts one Mig in the game. What?

What about the later versions? Yes, they were small runs but they were the only high altitude fighters the Soviet Union built.

The first time i played this, what, 2 years ago, i was Germans and i noticed that i was eventually going to gain more He219's than Germany ever built on a front that i am unsure that they ever operated from. But no Mig5's.

Mike

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RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/26/2012 7:28:59 PM   
hfarrish


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Any thoughts on the GAZ AA factory? I didn't see it up there (unless I missed it); it's so light that it's not hard to find some spare cap to evac a few of them, so I always do if threatened...but is it even worth that?

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RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/26/2012 7:32:18 PM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart

Interesting stuff. I had never even thought about considering if/when an aircraft or vehicle stops production and that it wouldn't be worthwhile to evacuate it. This raises the question though, as to should it even be possible to evacuate aircraft and vehicle factories that stop production within 8-12 months from the start of the campaign? Why not just make those factories unavailable to evacuate, reduce the overall soviet rail cap by the average amount to evacuate all those 'useless' factories, and call it even. It's kind of wasted time/energy for a player to go through and check to see if the aircraft will stop production before 1942 and then decide not to evacuate.


There have been many that has voiced the opinion that a way to balance the game was through out limiting the evacuation capability of the russian side. Many of the same people tho not all have at the same time argued for a better historical feel. In the name of balance u can ofc do and argue any thing. Ill agree that WiTE IMO has many problems and both in lack of feel and balance being among them. Non the less if u spend 5 mins looking at what the russian actually did evacuate this to me becomes a strawman arguement. In order to fix a problem we tweek another place instead of looking at what is infact causing those problems originally.

This is what the russian side lost as the game it self tells. Comparing a 41 scn to a 43 scn.
Zero, zip, nada, non. Not a single AFV/Tank/Combat vehicles/aircraft factory is lost. Of those that has any importance so not counting the liikes of SU 2 factory in Kharkov and like.
24 HI, I'd stipulate 4 is auto lost in Minsk, for 20
5 Vehicles
35 Arms, I'd stipulate 4 is auto lost in Minsk, for 31

So 64, 6k RR cap points lost and not a single AFV/Tank/Combat vehicles/aircraft. I'd argue when looking at the total 6k points lost in all, tho the composition of those 64 are different, in the far majority of games the russian player isnt all that far of 64 6k RR points. We also see the occational game going far worse.
Now there is an arguement to be made about the composition and it has validity. HI having no use and only arm has. While that has merit it has been shown how HI in indeed in some games end up having an importance and i do think that ppl tend to lose more than 5 vehicles. So there are choices to be made tho in most games those choices do have a strong leanings toward what is best to evac. Also i think there is an tendency to evac some of the AFV/Tank/Combat vehicles/aircraft fac at less than the 50% that is the historical level. Losing production, but freeing up RR cap. Again a player choice.
As to AFV/Tank/Combat vehicles/aircraft fac, well u cant do better than history only worse. (well theoritically u could evac all at 100% giving a very small production advantage but it would cost in the RR cap and there for in the 6k RR cap points lost in far far the most cases)

So history shows that the russians infact were very adapt at evacing and didnt lose particular much. Why i dont think its neither historical when taking all these things together nor particular benefitiary to try and balance the game by making evacs harder. I can understand ppls desire to tweek/major overhaul balance, this just isnt the way to go.

Kind regards,

Rasmus


< Message edited by Walloc -- 7/26/2012 9:12:24 PM >

(in reply to Schmart)
Post #: 15
RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/26/2012 7:38:01 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3039
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


Any thoughts on the GAZ AA factory? I didn't see it up there (unless I missed it); it's so light that it's not hard to find some spare cap to evac a few of them, so I always do if threatened...but is it even worth that?


My opinion is to evac all that is non threatned when u get the RR cap to do it. Assuming it doesnt have a stop date that makes the disruption in production not worth doing the evac. I only wrote up the threatned ones that has elements of choices in them. I know im not the best at writting (actually im pretty bad at it), so ill look through that part again. See if there is any thing i can do to make that point clearer. Note that there was changes in one of the recent patches making its easier to interswicth some of the AA stuff on russian side. I cant OTOH remember if GAZ AA was among them or not.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 7/26/2012 7:42:49 PM >

(in reply to hfarrish)
Post #: 16
RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/26/2012 7:49:06 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5871
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart

Interesting stuff. I had never even thought about considering if/when an aircraft or vehicle stops production and that it wouldn't be worthwhile to evacuate it. This raises the question though, as to should it even be possible to evacuate aircraft and vehicle factories that stop production within 8-12 months from the start of the campaign? Why not just make those factories unavailable to evacuate, reduce the overall soviet rail cap by the average amount to evacuate all those 'useless' factories, and call it even. It's kind of wasted time/energy for a player to go through and check to see if the aircraft will stop production before 1942 and then decide not to evacuate.


There have been many that has voiced the opinion that a way to balance the game was through out limiting the evacuation capability of the russian side. Many of the same people tho not all have at the same time argued for a better historical feel. In the name of balance u can ofc do and argue any thing. Ill agree that WiTE IMO has many problems and both in lack of feel and balance being among them. Non the less if u spend 5 mins looking at what the russian actually did evacuate this to me becomes a strawman arguement. In order to fix a problem we tweek another place instead of looking at what is infact causing those problems originally.

This is what the russian side lost as the game it self tells. Comparing a 41 scn to a 43 scn.
Zero, zip, nada, non. Not a single AFV/Tank/Combat vehicles/aircraft factory is lost. Of those that has any importance so not counting the liikes of SU 2 factory in Kharkov and like.
24 HI, I'd stipulate 4 is auto lost in Minsk, for 20
5 Vehicles
35 Arms, I'd stipulate 4 is auto lost in Minsk, for 31

So 64, 6k RR cap points lost and not a single AFV/Tank/Combat vehicles/aircraft. I'd argue when looking at total 6k points lost in all tho the composition of those 64 are different, in the far majority of games the russian player isnt all that far of 64 6k RR points. We also see the occational game going far worse.
Now there is an arguement to be made about the composition and it has validity. HI having no use and only arm has. While that has merit it has been shown how HI in indeed in some games end up having an importance and i do think that ppl tend to lose more than 5 vehicles. So there are choices to be made tho in most games those choices do have a strong leanings toward what is best to evac. Also i think there is an tendency to evac some of the AFV/Tank/Combat vehicles/aircraft fac at less than the 50% that is the historical level. Losing production, but freeing up RR cap. Again a player choice.
As to AFV/Tank/Combat vehicles/aircraft fac, well u cant do better than history only worse. (well theoritically u could evac all at 100% giving a very small production advantage but it would cost in the RR cap and there for the 6k RR cap points in far far the most cases)

So history shows that the russians infact were very adapt at evacing and didnt lose particular much. Why i dont think its neither historical when taking all these things together nor particular benefitiary to try and balance the game by making evacs harder. I can understand ppls desire to tweek/major overhaul balance, this just isnt the way to go.

Kind regards,

Rasmus




There was a time when I thought that the RR cap was to much, but I think it is about right.

If the SHC runs and doesn't delay its possible they will lose more then historical, but if they simply screen its possible to get it all out.

Walloc what does the lose of a vechile factory have on supplies and vechile out put?

_____________________________

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22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 17
RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/26/2012 8:30:38 PM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Walloc what does the lose of a vechile factory have on supplies and vechile out put?


The rough and i underline rough math is that each point lost equals 1k trucks lost through out the war. So 5 = 5k lost trucks.
Many will say that is nothing and there are some truths to that. Getting 6k and 8k per turn in LL in 43 and 44.
Still i see many not bothering/having/making the choice of not getting the 20 vehicles out of Kharkov.
Well, that wont affect you overall that much no, but that is still 20k vehicles or around 8 Mech corps less u can make if not evaced.
I understand that ppl evac them last if pressured just saying it does come at a potential cost.

About supplies well the easy answer is that it doesnt matter much. Well it doesnt have too, but when u look at 42 production of vehicles. U get 800 from LL and well up too 670ish IIRC if fully evaced. Thats just under 1500 in all. In my experience but again depence on army size and how good u at at making it effecient through disbands. That on clear weather turns u lose maybe from a bit less to some what less than that just from supplying ur army, but losing more in worse weather. This means u dont really have a truck production in 42. U have that to manage on what was rescued from the 41 army plus the mobilization vehicles. Usually what u got to spare is significant tho, around 100-150k trucks.
Here i know i disagree with Flav. I think its important to save as many trucks in 41 as possible. I dont offer up mot/tank divs if i can avoid it. Using them on rails behind the front to dig and what not(refit moral). Cutting down the vehicles used to supply em. It does come at a supply cost tho. i understand his point there. I just think the other is more importand.

Since the above math is based on full evac. Each truck facs point lost ofc lowers production making the "issue" of ur 42 truck pool/tank force creation/ability to lose vehicles through supplying army "all the worse".
Im not saying its necesarrily a huge issue and most wont notice much if u have a 6m 7m army. Still its there. I wouldnt expect many to have a truck pool that increase in 42 or if so only very slightly but dropping if u create a tank force.
If u have a larger army it does become an issus as i found out my self. In one game with a 6.5m blizzard force i along with creating tank corps's, I used up all of spare trucks in the blizzard offensive getting down to have just 105% of needed for supply, tho i was very aware of teh issue and toke meassures to aliviate it. Im not complaining in that case cuz it was worth it. Still it left me in situasion where my summer offensive had to be limited or facing going below 100% of need for supply. Summer army was 9.1m strong. Was my first game so I was still learning. I would do things different now.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 7/26/2012 8:58:52 PM >

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 18
RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/26/2012 8:51:28 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5871
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So losing say 20 on turn 12 would have an impact by blizzard 41/42?

Many games I get the 20 trucks in Kharkov by turn 12. what is that impact?

< Message edited by Pelton -- 7/26/2012 8:52:49 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 19
RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/26/2012 8:55:32 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3039
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline
No. Look at it as a long term investment. Thats 8 mech corps's less in 44-45.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 7/26/2012 9:04:46 PM >

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 20
RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/26/2012 9:09:36 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 6365
Joined: 9/9/2009
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I throw away the mech units precisely because I value trucks, Walloc. I starve them to death (50% TOE and no replacement priority, not even if they become depleted or unready) and put them in combat situations where they will rout right off the map -- and put their trucks in the replacement pool. This involves some losses, but I get something out of the units and don't need to disband them.

Hoarding them at full combat strength is false economy. They just suck up a ton of trucks this way. 1500+ per unit. The performance of these units bears no relation to the amount of support, supply and equipment they need.

When they get that high it is actually better to disband them outright and that costs your APs. If you leave them alone and they flip over to tank brigades they'll keep most of that equipment and only slowly bleed it off as being over TOE. Ultimately, the moment they enter combat, either as brigades or combined into tank corps, this excess strength dies anyways.

There's no free lunches in the Red Army. Use them and lose them.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 7/26/2012 9:12:09 PM >


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(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 21
RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/26/2012 9:35:18 PM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 3039
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I throw away the mech units precisely because I value trucks, Walloc. I starve them to death (50% TOE and no replacement priority, not even if they become depleted or unready) and put them in combat situations where they will rout right off the map -- and put their trucks in the replacement pool. This involves some losses, but I get something out of the units and don't need to disband them.


Ok, i just prefere not to lose, what is lost in doing that that. See more later tho.

quote:


Hoarding them at full combat strength is false economy. They just suck up a ton of trucks this way. 1500+ per unit. The performance of these units bears no relation to the amount of support, supply and equipment they need.


Ok, let me clarify then. I dont hoard them at full combat strength. I keep them at 50% ToE refiting if possbile 10 hexes behind the front lines. Not that u always have this choice. Eat up very little from pools, while digging, getting higher moral and exp. Giving a force come blizzard of tank bdes with 50+ moral u wont have if they come back later. The mot divs will start from a fairly early point morphing into inf divs freeing up the trucks, giving low str inf divs. Useable for either throw at enemy for speed bumps or if moral ends high enough refit to 100% and use for normal actions.

I dont really think the way we use them makes all that much difference Flav. I can understand ur points.

quote:


When they get that high it is actually better to disband them outright and that costs your APs. If you leave them alone and they flip over to tank brigades they'll keep most of that equipment and only slowly bleed it off as being over TOE. Ultimately, the moment they enter combat, either as brigades or combined into tank corps, this excess strength dies anyways.


I agree and i noted this over a half year ago where we agreed. Yes is a tendency among some, but far from all of the tank bde made from tank divs too keep extra vehicles and stuff. I tend to not use those in the blizzard offensive but making tank corps's out of them. In effect putting the stuff back in the pool as u say.

Its very possible i havent been pressured enough and would come around to ur point of view if i was Flav. Just saying its not my experince yet that i have needed it and saving every bit of truck is importand.
Actually i might have misspoken here. I just see in lots of AARs ppl letting mot and tank divs be the first line of defence getting surrounded. Losing every truck in them. This is non sense to me. They might only be 0.5-1 CV units with low value but they still can have 600 or more trucks in them a pop. That adds up fast. I might have put to much into what ppl do, as comming from your misunderstanding of ur advice. im sorry.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

P.S Edit: btw Flav since its ur brain child do u have any notes on the U2 rail forward practice i have missed? or just things u have to add

< Message edited by Walloc -- 7/27/2012 12:08:56 AM >

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 22
RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/26/2012 9:49:35 PM   
lycortas

 

Posts: 74
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Part of the problem there is production numbers. Getting your Soviet vehicle factories withdrawn should be critical but it is not.

I agree that finding accurate data on Russian production is difficult but most sources say that LL was about 70-75% of Russia's truck force. In game with full vehicle factory withdrawal the Russians will produce what, 130,000 vehicles? Tops? Lend Lease by the end of April '45 will have brought in 900,000. A bit more than 75%.

Mike

_____________________________

That's no moon, it's a space station!

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 23
RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/27/2012 1:00:40 AM   
turtlefang

 

Posts: 333
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The discussion here raises some very interesting issues for new players like myself.

1) Walloc evacuation guide is excellent read for new Soviet players and much appreciated. It made me realize that some factories simply don't need to be evacuated with completely to reach thier full potential.

2) Flaviusx points both here and in other post on running a lean Soviet Army are very good strategic options.

I have a little different approach on the motorize units in the Soviet Army - I disband them as soon as possible. I know it cost AP points but, IMO, its worth it. The saving in trucks, manpower and other equipment is more than worth it. These units are relatively low in combat power, I want them coming back as infantry division as soon as possible, and just not needed in the front lines - they get chewed up too much and loss too much equipment for too little gain.

I also disband the motorcycle regiments, the AT regiments, and most of the AA battalions, and some of the SU Art units. I leave most of the corps HQs but sent them to the rear for auto disbanding.

Sometimes, I will disband the SAD airbases or most of them; sometimes not depending on how things are going.

Like Walloc, I run into major truck problems by the end of the first winter regardless of Army size. The winter just rough on trucks and 1942 usually doesn't let me increase or better my truck position (supply) and I make sure that save all my vehical factories.

(in reply to Walloc)
Post #: 24
RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/27/2012 1:11:13 AM   
Flaviusx


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Turtlefang, the one thing that keeps me from disbanding these units is that it permanently removes the replacement unit from your OB. (Which is why I like to put tank divisions in situations where they will autodisband -- no penalty there.) So the real AP cost is more than just the 1 AP, it is 6 APs (for the lost tank brigade) or 11 APs (for the lost rifle division.)

Even so, you get so many tank brigades that it may just be worth it anyways. I only care about having enough of them to make two dozen tank corps, anything beyond that is either going to be eventually merged into understrength corps, or simply disbanded. (Tank brigades are meh.)

I definitely would avoid disbanding the motorized divisions, though, I hate losing a free rifle division.

Walloc, nothing to add on the U2 topic, you covered the major points.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 7/27/2012 1:45:48 AM >


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Post #: 25
RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/27/2012 2:59:35 AM   
turtlefang

 

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Good to know. I didn't realize that disbanding the units removed them from the OB - I thought they would return as rifle division just like they were eliminated.

I'll have to re-evaluate my strategy.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 26
RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/27/2012 3:09:44 AM   
Michael T


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From: Queensland, Australia.
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IMO its crazy to disband anything in the summer of 1941 that has a counter with a zoc on the map. You need all these units to help with the defence. Once you hit the October mud go for it. But prior to that its unwise I reckon. Nothing will demoralize a Hilterite invader more than a horde of Soviet counters on the map.

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Post #: 27
RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 7/27/2012 3:15:38 AM   
hfarrish


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I tend to agree - given the current difficulty of surviving '41 intact (or at least, intact while still holding Moscow) you need to use every possible counter you have. Unless depleted, everything has a ZOC and everything can dig.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 28
RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 8/26/2012 12:16:26 AM   
delatbabel


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*bump*

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RE: Walloc's russian factory evac guide - 1/22/2013 12:47:48 AM   
delatbabel


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*bump*

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