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RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP)

 
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RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/10/2012 10:39:39 PM   
bwheatley

 

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looks nice good work man. :) now just to talk you into helping me with some map work :P

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Post #: 181
RE: Board Game Map Mod (REL) - 8/11/2012 1:54:00 AM   
aspqrz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hexagon

OOBs need a full rebalance... first see non arty regiments in non german units is... (is a lot better leave arty in a regiment and reinforce infantry regiments with AT rifles, maybe 5 76mm and MGs like in DC1) ...


I am not sure what you mean by this.

Most (if not all) WW2 combatants had two, really three, sorts of Artillery ...

1) Divisional Artillery - mostly Howitzers and Gun Howitzers which were intended primarily for long range indirect fire (that is, map or spotted fire at targets the guns couldn't actually see). These are, I am presuming on the most cursory of glances, the tubes that are in the Divisional Artillery Regiments for the Germans (I haven't had a look at the Russians or Axis allies *at all*). They were under the Division Commander's control and used as he saw fit to support the Division's operations.

2) Infantry Guns - so called because they were part of the TO&E of the Infantry units (Battalions, Regiments, whatever). These were generally direct fire weapons with limited indirect fire ranges. They were intended to operate in direct support of the Infantry Regiment?Battalion they belonged to. Often (mostly) Guns rather than Howitzers. They were under the Regimental or Battalion Commander's control and used as they saw fit to support the Battalion/Regiment's operations.

3) Mortars - most were part of the TO&E of Infantry units (Battalions, Regiments) and used in support of Battalion/Regimental Ops by the Battalion/Regimental Commander. Some were deployed down at Company level and under the control of the Company commander. In a few cases, some lighter models may have been deployed at Squad level.

DCCB does, afaict, a reasonable job of modelling this three way split ... in other words, the artillery in the Infantry (or Armour or Mechanised or Motor) Brigades are from (2) and (3), not from (1), which is as it should be.

Isn't this the same in axis allied and Russian units? Is that what you are getting at? If so, then, yes, I agree, it really needs to be changed.

Phil

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Post #: 182
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/11/2012 6:24:27 AM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

looks nice good work man. :) now just to talk you into helping me with some map work :P


What do you need?

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Post #: 183
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/11/2012 8:43:21 AM   
sitito

 

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Red, love ur WW2 Photo_Units Mod… u will add in the future the planes photos???

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Post #: 184
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/11/2012 10:19:26 AM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sitito

Red, love ur WW2 Photo_Units Mod… u will add in the future the planes photos???


Budd has added ships and planes for both sides :) Coming in the next release.

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Post #: 185
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/11/2012 10:21:25 AM   
redmarkus4


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I have upped the Panzer Division OOB based on my best assessment of what the average should be for a fully stocked 1942 German PzDiv. Remember, all these values will be randomised and reduced by the game at the start.

Any thoughts or suggestions on this?




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 186
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/11/2012 11:17:22 AM   
sitito

 

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quote:

Budd has added ships and planes for both sides :) Coming in the next release.


Great!! looking foward!!

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Post #: 187
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/11/2012 11:17:46 AM   
redmarkus4


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I've decided that Artillery Regts will be real artillery Regts, with only an 'Alarm KG' to defend them, in PanzerKrieg version 5.

Other Version 5 changes include, in summary:

1. Added Aufklarung, Pioniere and Fuslier battalions to each ID as a 4th Regt. I still need to work through all the units on the map and edit them/rename the Artillery Regt, so that might take a while.
2. Upped the panzer OOBs all around to better match the records I have found.
3. Persistent rocket units with lower stats.
4. Renamed SS units to give more historical format.
5. Incorporated the Ritterkreig unit graphics and added some NATO graphics of my own for Artillery and Engineer Regts.
6. Map corrections to a few remaining extra city hexes - all cities should now really only fill one 10x10km hex.
7. Extended the WW2 B&W photo units mod to include ships and planes by Budd.
8. Removed the 1st rate combat infantry from the artillery regts.

In the pipeline for version 5 or 6:

1. New Soviet Officers pics.
2. Maybe some new event code if B Wheatley can be persuaded to assist!
3. Updated Soviet OOB, perhaps and only if I can find stats and it's justified by play testing.
4. Edits to SS division OOBs.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 188
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/11/2012 12:05:08 PM   
Hexagon

 

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I refer to add the infantry guns in infantry regiments for soviets, and leave 76mm hotwitzers (the non AT version) and 122mm for a dedicated arty regiment with 200 infantry+200 engeniers, for me a soviet infantry regiment needs at full power 2.000 infantry, 5-10 76mm infantry guns, 5 76mm AT guns, 5-10 45mm ATs (soviet divisions have a AT regiment with AT guns and could be divided in game between regiments) and maybe add AT rifles because in this part of the war AT rifles in soviet army have an important role.

Mortars... in DC1 i dont see them breaking nothing like MGs because they are 0 range weapons (81mm and 50mm mortars)... maybe my problem with DC2 is the lack of standar structure in regiments, some times in non german divisions is a little... well.

In armored brigades i miss the infantry battalion that all this units have. I think that motorized and armored units needs a more standar structure, at corps level motorized units have tanks but as independent brigades no.

For example take the 13th tank corps in Uranus.

PzC Stalingrad:

3 mech brigades (call it motorized brigade): made of


3 motorized battalions(487 men)
1 tank regiment(27 tanks mixed)
1 arty bn 12 guns 76mm
1 mortar bn 18x81mm/120mm
1 AA bn 12x37mm


1 tank brigade:

2 tank regiments, 1 of T-34/76 with 21 vehicles and a light regiment with 11 T-70
1 motorized battalion with 403 men.

And the corps has a small sapper unit of 274 men.

Total 4.786 soldiers, 113 tanks, 36 guns, 54 mortars and 36 AA guns.

DC:

3 units but with no mortars and with heavy arty...

1.700 soldiers 25xT-34/76, 15xT-70, 10x76mm guns, 10x122mm, 5x45mm AT and 250-300 trucks in 2 of the units, third miss 300 soldiers and the 5 122mm guns.

Total: 4.800 soldiers, 120 tanks, 50 guns, 15 ATs

Numbers are not a lot diferent except in guns... i think that in game need in this units light arty (76mm and mortars) and maybe add AA protection.

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Post #: 189
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/11/2012 12:25:15 PM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

looks nice good work man. :) now just to talk you into helping me with some map work :P


What do you need?


Horrible map work i'm working on trying to get my map of europe in ATG done. :) But once it's done it could be imported into DC2 though. :>

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Post #: 190
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/11/2012 12:26:22 PM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

I've decided that Artillery Regts will be real artillery Regts, with only an 'Alarm KG' to defend them, in PanzerKrieg version 5.

Other Version 5 changes include, in summary:

1. Added Aufklarung, Pioniere and Fuslier battalions to each ID as a 4th Regt. I still need to work through all the units on the map and edit them/rename the Artillery Regt, so that might take a while.
2. Upped the panzer OOBs all around to better match the records I have found.
3. Persistent rocket units with lower stats.
4. Renamed SS units to give more historical format.
5. Incorporated the Ritterkreig unit graphics and added some NATO graphics of my own for Artillery and Engineer Regts.
6. Map corrections to a few remaining extra city hexes - all cities should now really only fill one 10x10km hex.
7. Extended the WW2 B&W photo units mod to include ships and planes by Budd.
8. Removed the 1st rate combat infantry from the artillery regts.

In the pipeline for version 5 or 6:

1. New Soviet Officers pics.
2. Maybe some new event code if B Wheatley can be persuaded to assist!
3. Updated Soviet OOB, perhaps and only if I can find stats and it's justified by play testing.
4. Edits to SS division OOBs.






What event code did you need?

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Post #: 191
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/11/2012 2:06:43 PM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley


quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4


quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

looks nice good work man. :) now just to talk you into helping me with some map work :P


What do you need?


Horrible map work i'm working on trying to get my map of europe in ATG done. :) But once it's done it could be imported into DC2 though. :>


Send me the map in DC2 format and I'll take a look at it. I will PM re the event stuff.

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Post #: 192
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/11/2012 2:16:32 PM   
redmarkus4


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OK, so we end up with this for the Soviet Rifle Regts - before randomisation.

This should off-set a lot of the Axis OOB changes.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 193
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/11/2012 3:29:30 PM   
redmarkus4


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Created a new 'OCS_Fields' graphic by stealing the images from WtP which I am adding to the map. It will be much more heavily used in the west, getting less and less common as you go east.

The same movement and combat effects as the original 'Plains', but it breaks up the monotony a little.

Also coming in PzKrg Version 5.0




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by redmarkus4 -- 8/11/2012 3:30:00 PM >


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Post #: 194
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/11/2012 4:58:20 PM   
redmarkus4


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Darker 'move-to' hexes that now show up properly on the OCS map and lighter FoW hexes. Also removed the FoW hex sides...




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RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/12/2012 10:39:59 AM   
Sator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

1. Added Aufklarung, Pioniere and Fuslier battalions to each ID as a 4th Regt. I still need to work through all the units on the map and edit them/rename the Artillery Regt, so that might take a while.



I am not sure if to have a fourth regiment on the map is really more historically correct. The primary units organic to divisional headquarters where the reconnaissance, engineer, anti-tank and signal battalions, but these units had very different tasks and it’s hard to expect them to move and fight together as a single force.

It’s correct to add engineers and recon units (aren’t fusiliers just a late version of recons?) to divisions’ OOB but I think it could be more historically reasonable to embed them in the existing regiments. In this way one of the regiment will have a better engineering capacity (figuring he’s fighting with the support of the engineer battalion) and another best reconnaissance capacity. Not a perfect solution but in my opinion better than to see all these ghost regiments in the map.

Thank you for your wonderful work, Markus!

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RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/12/2012 11:06:11 AM   
aspqrz

 

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Or spread them across the existing (Line) Regiments, which is what I have assumed for my recommended Romanian Army TO&E changes for DCCB, elsewhere.

Ideally, of course, a game such as this would operate on a Regimental and Battalion scale, with the Regiments as the main units, but with supplementary Battalions ... but, for DCCB, I think things seem to work reasonably well as is (i.e. keep with Regiments).

Phil

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Post #: 197
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/12/2012 11:14:18 AM   
Hexagon

 

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The smaller scale that starts to cover well the OOB is battalion level but game was made for regiment scale (casualties 100 by 100 and 5 by 5) for me the only problem is the miss of arty regiments in non german units that split divisional arty between regiments (this add the problem of see an arty regiment attacking infantry regiment and suffering casualties by counterbattery from the attacked unit).

Maybe is to early to talk about DC3 but VIC can maybe explore a battalion scale covering a smaller campaign (in number of troops) like North Africa or japanese blitzkrieg in the Pacific (Burma, Philipines...) with 10 by 10 and 1 by 1 casualties.

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RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/12/2012 1:44:31 PM   
aspqrz

 

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I have done a OOB/TO&E for Romanian Infantry, Cavalry, Mountain and Armour units, as well as Corps units (elsewhere) that shows that they should have 3 Line and 1 Artillery for each, just as the Germans do, because the TO&Es given in DCCB simply leave out the bulk of their Artillery.

I haven't had a chance to do Hungary and Italy yet, but a cursory glance shows they are almost certainly also misconfigured and have missing Artillery etc.

Then on to German and Russian units, as I suspect they may have been overly simplified out of some elements they should have.

Phil

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RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/12/2012 5:01:23 PM   
redmarkus4


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I will use any reliable TOEs anyone can post here. What's missing from the current German Inf Divs (based on standard Wehrmacht TOE for 1942) is:

1 x Field replacement Bn
1 x Pionier Bn
1x Pz jager Bn (but this is already spread across the Regts)
1 x Aufklarungs Recon Bn
1 x Fusilier Bn (for street fighting etc - not recon)

Div HQ staff, 1 x Signals Bn and Supply Bn are represented by 'Staff'.

Either the regts need to be beefed up a lot or an extra small regt is needed. I feel that adding a Regt (it's about half the size of the others) with recon, pioneers and fusliers gives the commander an option to commit these specialists or not, and where. Spreading them just equals more riflemen.

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RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/12/2012 6:25:17 PM   
redmarkus4


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I think PanzerKrieg version 5 is nearly ready. However, as the optional scenario that comes with it has a large number of OOB changes, I am looking for a couple of friendly play-testers to play through the first few turns and comment on how it feels.

Please PM me if interested and I will give you a DL link to use.

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RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/12/2012 9:34:44 PM   
Sator


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

I will use any reliable TOEs anyone can post here. What's missing from the current German Inf Divs (based on standard Wehrmacht TOE for 1942) is:

1 x Field replacement Bn
1 x Pionier Bn
1x Pz jager Bn (but this is already spread across the Regts)
1 x Aufklarungs Recon Bn
1 x Fusilier Bn (for street fighting etc - not recon)

Div HQ staff, 1 x Signals Bn and Supply Bn are represented by 'Staff'.

Either the regts need to be beefed up a lot or an extra small regt is needed. I feel that adding a Regt (it's about half the size of the others) with recon, pioneers and fusliers gives the commander an option to commit these specialists or not, and where. Spreading them just equals more riflemen.


From N.Terry & L. Cole "The German Army Order of Battle 1939 - 1945"

"Fusilier battalions: based on the experiences withDivision Battalions, from October 1943 under the "New model" (neue Art) divisional organization, all Infantry Division Reconaissance, Mobile and Division battalions were renamed Fusilier Battalions."

From G. F. Nafziger “The german order of battle – Infantry in World war II”, writing about Type 44 division (1943 – 1944):

“In newly forming, the structure was simply organized with six instead of nine battalions. The reconnaissance units were replaced by a “fusilier” battalion that was frequently equipped with bicycles so that it could continue in the reconnaissance role.”

From S.W. Mitcham Jr “German order of battle - Volume one”:

“Infantry reconnaissance battalions normally consisted of three companies: one mounted, one motorcycle and one motorized (heavy weapons) company. Light, motorized, and panzer divisional reconnaissance battalions normally were completely motorized.
From 1943 onward, newly organized divisions incorporated fusilier battalions, which were organized like infantry battalions except that they were more mobile. Usually they were equipped with bicycles”.

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RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/12/2012 11:34:14 PM   
sitito

 

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Man here i learn more than i did it at school...great inputs sator

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RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/13/2012 4:21:50 AM   
aspqrz

 

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I have added Hungarian Light Division (Augmented) and Hungarian Army and Corps level organisation to the OOB/TO&E thread, Hungarian Armoured Division to follow "real soon now" ...

Phil

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Post #: 204
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/13/2012 8:48:17 AM   
LiquidSky


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

I have upped the Panzer Division OOB based on my best assessment of what the average should be for a fully stocked 1942 German PzDiv. Remember, all these values will be randomised and reduced by the game at the start.

Any thoughts or suggestions on this?




The 3rd Panzer Division had 1 Regiment (3 Battalions), total 150 panzers; a mix of PzIII's and Pz-IV's at the start of the battle of Kharkov in May.

The 16th Panzer Division had 1 Regiment of tanks (2 Battalions), 88 panzers (mix of both III's and IV's) and 6 Pz -II's in a recon company.
When they reached the outskirts of Stalingrad they had 108 Pz III's (mix of long and short barrelled), and 24 Pz IV's in a single regiment.

The 14th Panzer Division had 1 Regiment of tanks (3 Battalions) with about 132 panzers.
When they reached the outskirts of Stalingrad, they had 29 Pz III's (mix of long and short barrelled), and 18 Pz IV's left.

The 23rd Panzer Division had 1 Regiment of tanks (3 Battalions) for a total of 180 panzers. (pzII's/pz III's/Pz IV's). This division sat in France through the winter and only showed up in Russia in April...so this is a lot closer to a 'perfect' ToE.


This was all before the fighting against the Soviets by Kharkov. So this is a kind of 'high water' mark for their organization. I don't think you will find any German Panzer division with 200 panzers in it at any time in 1942 or later Russia, despite what might be written on a ToE.

If you want to go with an average, try not to number it above 150 tanks.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by LiquidSky -- 8/13/2012 8:53:33 AM >


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RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/13/2012 11:32:56 AM   
redmarkus4


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Thanks gents - I'll make some changes.

However, I am finding the Germans to still be under-performing, even with the 4th ad-hoc Regt.

Any thoughts on what the ideal in-game '42 Soviet Inf Div OOB should look like?

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(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 206
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/13/2012 5:55:41 PM   
redmarkus4


Posts: 4107
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PanzerKrieg Version 5 is now available for download: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3147536&mpage=1&key=&#

< Message edited by redmarkus4 -- 8/13/2012 6:42:21 PM >


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(in reply to bwheatley)
Post #: 207
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/13/2012 6:36:08 PM   
sitito

 

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Joined: 1/2/2010
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Im triying the new version of your photo-units mod, which i love it, but i dunno if im doing something wrong but it also appears a picture face in the IDs, how can i disable them!!??

By the way thanxs for the effort of the team!! Guys u are doing a fantastic job!!!Congrats and keep it up

(in reply to redmarkus4)
Post #: 208
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/13/2012 6:45:25 PM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sitito

Im triying the new version of your photo-units mod, which i love it, but i dunno if im doing something wrong but it also appears a picture face in the IDs, how can i disable them!!??

By the way thanxs for the effort of the team!! Guys u are doing a fantastic job!!!Congrats and keep it up


Sorry - missed a folder. It's now fixed: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/29184871/2c_PzKrg_WW2_Photo_Units_V5_fixed.zip

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Cyberpower tower PC
Intel Core i7-3930k CPU, 3.20GHz processor
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Windows 7 Professional 64-bit O

(in reply to sitito)
Post #: 209
RE: Board Game Map Mod (WiP) - 8/13/2012 6:48:54 PM   
sitito

 

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Joined: 1/2/2010
From: Spain
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wow that was fast!

i love u...i really do

(in reply to redmarkus4)
Post #: 210
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