RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!!

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!!

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> After Action Reports >> RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!!

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/18/2012 12:05:33 AM

Pelton

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AGS is doing nicely all goals meet. Starting to set up winter defences and still flipping a few more hexes

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

On leave until 9/13

(in reply to Pelton)

Post #: 61

RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/18/2012 12:08:11 AM

Pelton

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Turn 18
German Arm PTs in pool=
German Manpower in pool=
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 =
Russian losses this turn: 63,000 Total dead: 2,268,000
Russian OOB: 5,099,000
A net gain of: 63,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket: 2
GHC OOB: 3,412,000
GHC net OOB change: 12,000

Woot Blizzard on October 16th in north. Doesnt meean allot other then rivers will freeze over before December an Moscow will be easyer to take, hopefully hehhe

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

On leave until 9/13

(in reply to Pelton)

Post #: 62

RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/18/2012 12:10:42 AM

Pelton

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Joined: 4/9/2006
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Odessa cleared

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

On leave until 9/13

(in reply to Pelton)

Post #: 63

RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/18/2012 1:13:31 AM

bigbaba

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From: Koblenz, Germany
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hehe the situation around Moscow looks exactly like the map of the battle of kursk.

he seems to make a comon russian mistake: one line defense instead of more depth in the defense. should be easy to blast a 20 km hole in the front and pocket all this guys.

< Message edited by bigbaba -- 8/18/2012 1:23:04 AM >

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/18/2012 1:18:50 AM

hfarrish

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Baba - as I'm sure Pelton can attest to, appearances from the opposing side can be deceiving...there might be a few more units behind the curtain than you see there!

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/18/2012 11:18:09 AM

Pelton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

hehe the situation around Moscow looks exactly like the map of the battle of kursk.

he seems to make a comon russian mistake: one line defense instead of more depth in the defense. should be easy to blast a 20 km hole in the front and pocket all this guys.

Its random weather which means as german you only have 14 clear turns in North. I will not be taking Moscow this year.

Its my one and only game as random weather. The worse Russian winter on record is the base line, so basicly the weather can only be worse then historical. One last red bias that needs to be changed to something thats close to the historical weather records of the 20th century.

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

On leave until 9/13

(in reply to bigbaba)

Post #: 66

RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/18/2012 12:30:34 PM

Flaviusx

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Pelton, each of the weather zones can only get one turn of mud during the summer. And of course it is possible for any of the weather zones not to have mud at all.

So you cannot have less than 16 turns of clear weather in Moscow's zone.

I pretty much won't play anybody without random weather who is above a certain level anymore. Veteran German players have just gotten too good at abusing the game's logistics. This is virtually the only break on that available.

You are doing better than historical in this game, btw, even with the mud.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 8/18/2012 12:36:10 PM >

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/19/2012 12:50:21 AM

Pelton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Pelton, each of the weather zones can only get one turn of mud during the summer. And of course it is possible for any of the weather zones not to have mud at all.

So you cannot have less than 16 turns of clear weather in Moscow's zone.

I pretty much won't play anybody without random weather who is above a certain level anymore. Veteran German players have just gotten too good at abusing the game's logistics. This is virtually the only break on that available.

You are doing better than historical in this game, btw, even with the mud.

Turn 4 Mud central zone, stopped the main advances of AGN and AGC, then on turn 16 mud in Moscow zone.

Thats 2 turns of mud old fellow. twisting things around makes it sound like only 1 turn of mud, but the facts are 2 turns of mud at the point of both AGN and AGC.

The weather is bias because of the worse then historical out comes and the zones are set up to have a very high chance of 2 mud turns in the very zones needed.

So I was wrong and so are you.

15 turns of clear weather were it counts when it counts

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

On leave until 9/13

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 68

RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/19/2012 1:03:55 AM

bigbaba

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look at the random weather from the positive side. when this game goes on you will be defending most of the remaining time so randon weather will benefit you and cause problems for the attacking russians.

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/19/2012 1:16:37 AM

Pelton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

look at the random weather from the positive side. when this game goes on you will be defending most of the remaining time so randon weather will benefit you and cause problems for the attacking russians.

That does help, but as we know the first 17 turns are probaly 66% of the game.

The game is a huge challage for me for sure.

SHC has 5 million men, all industry evaced, no AP crunch and only 2.2 million dead on turn 17.

Sure we can all see why Flaviusx is only going to play random weather. SHC gets to have it all.

GHC has basicly zip going for it at this point. GHC will have to have a great summer, snow has been nerffed so GHC will be up agianst a carpet of forts and divisions with 500 AP in the bank, a few million men, a few 100,000 arm pts ect ect.

If GHC can win this it be against all the odds.

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

On leave until 9/13

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Post #: 70

RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/19/2012 1:24:45 AM

hfarrish

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Well, I have to jump in here a bit - I would obviously agree that random weather had benefited the Red Army here, but for God's sake what would a game be like without it? Even with random weather:

-the German army took Leningrad on what, turn 10? August?

-the battle for Moscow was initiated in mid-September

-the defense of Moscow (if it holds, which remains an if) has only been achieved by stripping AGN and AGS [edit: I mean the Soviet equivalents] of almost everything

-the advance in the South is far beyond historical at this point, with the exception of Rostov POSSIBLY not falling.

Pelton is a great, great player and I understand his frustration, but I have to agree with Flavius - a Soviet player would be an idiot for agreeing to non-random weather against an excellent German player; the baseline at that point is Moscow, Leningrad and Rostov falling and hoping that worse doesn't happen. Add to that the fact that the game is more fun and less predictable with random weather - I can't back off of any front now because at any point we could revert to snow/blizzard and I could be under attack again.

In any case, I'll have direct game comments once we go to the "real" blizzard in December and thank Pelton for a really great game despite his frustration...

< Message edited by hfarrish -- 8/19/2012 1:34:42 AM >

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/19/2012 1:42:27 AM

Kamil

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quote:

hfarrish

Pelton is a great, great player and I understand his frustration, but I have to agree with Flavius - a Soviet player would be an idiot for agreeing to non-random weather against an excellent German player

Sorry, but this comments is ... not good at best.

It is weird idea to counter someones skill with options that randomly increase difficulty while stating it is alright to do so.

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/19/2012 1:47:27 AM

hfarrish

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That's fair, and I would agree one should not just randomly increase difficulty to put oneself on an even par with an opponent. I guess my response would be that the game as is is not properly balanced (the baseline in 41 just should not be Leningrad falling in August/early September. It should not) and as such the weather is needed to provides that balance. Against a lesser player I don't feel the need for it and therefore am ambivalent even if random weather is, in my opinion, the "right" way to play the game, but against an expert the logistical model demands the balance that random weather provides.

Make sense?

< Message edited by hfarrish -- 8/19/2012 1:53:00 AM >

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/19/2012 2:57:52 AM

Michael T

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quote:

a Soviet player would be an idiot for agreeing to non-random weather against an excellent German player

I guess I am in that group. I only use non random weather, no matter which side I play or quality of opposition.

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/19/2012 3:02:35 AM

hfarrish

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...and that is why I am watching your/Pelton game closely. If you stop him with non-random weather, then I will feel like it is more likely my gameplay that caused the loss/ahistorical loss of territory.

Am I the only one who thinks that non-random weather is more fun and realistic, regardless of balancing issues?

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/19/2012 6:27:35 AM

Michael T

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Don't get me wrong. In every other wargame I play I use the weather tables that provide variable weather dependent on a die roll. But the WITE setup is just not that good IMO. For me and a few others I suspect the random weather in WITE just screws up the German summer campaign too much, or if you are lucky not at all. I don't like it. And I don't think non random weather is a bad deal for Russia either. If they had a more satisfactory weather table, a higher resolution of zones and a wider range of mud results ( i.e light mud, heavy mud) I would be more inclined to use it.

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/19/2012 2:37:57 PM

Flaviusx

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I'm betting on the Germans...in both games. This will hopefully definitively prove the point I've been making for months: after a certain level of expertise, 1941 is very much in the Axis favor now. I'm fairly sure both Michael and Pelton will take Moscow from each other. Michael believes Moscow is not important and will abandon it with alacrity if threatened with a pocket. We shall see how he fares in 1942 without it. (He may or may not retake it during the winter.) Pelton is under no such delusion that Moscow doesn't matter, but he may wind up losing more of the Red Army trying to keep it since he is less likely to run away from it than Micheal.

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/19/2012 4:36:37 PM

Scook_99

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If you have what I call "rolling fronts", yes, your troops can get in mud for more than one turn, generally once in central, then in north. But keep in mind, it is RANDOM. I have seen North Russia get rain turn 3, which is pointless at that time, and central get it turn 16, which does hurt some, but not devastating. Don't judge one game on how the weather will play out. Turn 17-18, Pelton, and you are doing amazing with the worst possible summer weather. I am in awe of your skill. Please consider keeping the random weather (depending on player skill, of course), as it may give you more interesting games, and late in games can be, well, an ally at times.

edit: You will appreciate the random weather come May, 1942. Look at the weather chart and see what chances you have of clear every turn instead of the alternating Mud/Clear weather.

< Message edited by Scook_99 -- 8/19/2012 4:42:51 PM >

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/19/2012 5:08:35 PM

Seminole

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quote:

It is weird idea to counter someones skill with options that randomly increase difficulty while stating it is alright to do so.

I think it does less to counter someone's skill than it does to counter the 'scripted, clockwork' campaigns we witness where the Germans launch a campaign in July with perfect knowledge of weather conditions 18 weeks hence.
In my view the skill is exemplified in the ability to adapt, improvise, and overcome.

quote:

For me and a few others I suspect the random weather in WITE just screws up the German summer campaign too much, or if you are lucky not at all. I don't like it. And I don't think non random weather is a bad deal for Russia either. If they had a more satisfactory weather table, a higher resolution of zones and a wider range of mud results ( i.e light mud, heavy mud) I would be more inclined to use it.

I don't see any advantage in more granularity in weather zones. We're abstracting a week's worth of weather, not a day's. I do think think the idea of 'light mud, heavy mud', akin to how freeze levels build, has merit.

< Message edited by Seminole -- 8/19/2012 5:09:28 PM >

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/19/2012 5:19:33 PM

Flaviusx

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Scook, I've seen worse summer weather than this, tbh. Like double mud in Soviet South and Central on turn 5 (yes, more than one zone can get hit in a single turn.) Ouch.

Then again look at what happened to poor Notenome. He got snow turns all through the rasputitsa as the Soviets. Lost Moscow as a result. Any extra snow turns here could also doom Moscow.

On balance it does favor the Soviets in 1941, simply because it introduces an element of uncertainty to logistical calculations that doesn't exist in a non random game, which must necessarily favor the defense. It helps move games out of 1941. After 1941 it isn't clear random weather favors either side, but right now my biggest concern is getting more interesting games and not having them being decided in 41.

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/19/2012 10:54:02 PM

sillyflower

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I would expect random weather to favour Germans after '41. My reason: Germans will know what the weather is in next Russian turn so can plan accordingly. The Russian will not.

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/21/2012 1:11:51 AM

Pelton

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I just finished turn 24, GHC is at Moscow. I am going to post turn 25 once we get past that a little.

GHC is basicly rdy for December to February. I have to try for Moscow next yr.

Pulling back 8 90+ morale infantry units and some that are high 80's, plus 12 panzer units. I am going to try an hold some areas of front using reserve mode. Never tried it, but it makes a good fit for random weather.

I meet my min goals for 41 summer.

1. manpower centers over run.
2. land taken
3. morale

I did not

1.take Moscow
2. kill 3 million
3. AG B

Goals for blizzard basicly

1. Less then 10 divisions pocketed
2. Hold from Tula north as far east as possible.
3. Keep the 90 morale units out of combat until April.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 8/21/2012 1:12:43 AM >

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

On leave until 9/13

(in reply to sillyflower)

Post #: 82

RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/24/2012 12:05:11 PM

Pelton

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Turn 25
German Arm PTs in pool= 145,000
German Manpower in pool= 67,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 =
Russian losses this turn: ,000 Total dead: 2,514,000
Russian OOB: 6,000,000
A net gain of: ,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket:
GHC OOB: 3,387,000
GHC net OOB change: ,000

10 infantry division and 15 panzer units under cover as of now. I would like to get 2 more infantry divisions under cover, but with 18 new divisions arriving as reinforcements this should be more then enough as they are all high morale. 15 mech is enough as this is enough to fill out 2 PG, plus elite and reinforcements.

I will try and not lose to many units and hold north of Tula as far east as possible. This is by far the largest SHC army I have faced during blizzard 6,000,800 men.

Fins defending most of the hexes above attack line. 16th army is dug in with some reserves. I have tons of room up here to retreat if needed, but would like to hold if possible.
9th army is dug in with extra units in reserve so if this area needs to pull back a hex a turn it should not be an issue.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

On leave until 9/13

(in reply to Pelton)

Post #: 83

RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/24/2012 12:06:42 PM

Pelton

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18th army is under cover other then 2 divisions which will be under cover next turn. 8 divisions are close to Moscow area to be used it needed.

4th PG is defending a front 4 hexes wide with 4 pz units in reserve mode behind 4 dug in infantry units.

3rd PG is defending a front 5 hexes long with 6 pz units in reserve.

2nd PG is defending a front 4 hexes long with 4 pz units in reserve.

2nd army is pulling back 2 hexes per turn, but tring to hold north of Tula with 3 pz units in reserve.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

On leave until 9/13

(in reply to Pelton)

Post #: 84

RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/24/2012 12:07:30 PM

Pelton

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4th army is with drawing 2 hexes per turn.

17th and 6th army are withdrawing 2 hexes per turn during December with a few pz units in reserve mode.

11th army and 1st PG are going to try and hold the Stalino area, with MT divisions holding the Crimea land bridge.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

On leave until 9/13

(in reply to Pelton)

Post #: 85

RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/24/2012 12:08:05 PM

Pelton

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Crimea

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_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

On leave until 9/13

(in reply to Pelton)

Post #: 86

RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/25/2012 4:58:05 AM

hfarrish

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Just wanted to pop in to add a couple comments (we are well into the blizzard at this point) - from a Soviet point of view I would say the following:

- I was relatively happy with the outcome of the '41 campaign; I assumed Leningrad was lost and that the major battle would be for Moscow (which it was) - while one could argue weather saved Moscow (there was mud on T15) I don't think that is accurate - there were a lot of snow and blizzard turns throughout October/November that could have made up for that.

- Perhaps Michael T will come up with an alternative strategy but as of now I can't see doing anything other than what I did as the Soviets, which is the screen + MLR approach with the MLR being way back in the rear. If anything, I invested too much in the Rzhev - Vyzama line, as soon as Pelton got there I had to abandon it anyway. Some of those troops might have been valuable around Leningrad.

- The South is still an enigma; I was happy with my approach of screening the Volga while establishing the real line on the Psel, but at the end of the day it seems like 6 of one, half dozen of the other...I guess at a minimum setting your main lines up further back minimizes pockets

- Overall, the war will come down to manpower and nothing else - I did a good job of evacing factories, my only mistake being thinking that the Leningrad T50 factory was a dead factory (like the MiG-3s) and not evacuating it...otherwise, everything got out on time. As such, manpower will decide the war.

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/25/2012 7:10:58 AM

bigbaba

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should be a very intresting blizzard gentlemen with pelton trying to hold as much land as possible.

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RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/25/2012 9:32:09 AM

Pelton

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Turn 26
German Arm PTs in pool= 155,000
German Manpower in pool= 128,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 =
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 =
Russian losses this turn: 53 ,000 Total dead: 2,567,000
Russian OOB: 6,081,000
A net gain of: 81,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket:
GHC OOB: 3,283,000
GHC net OOB change: -103 ,000
GHC Losses this turn: 86,000 Total Dead: 692,000

Retreats:23
Held: 6

Its random weather so the few extra snow and blizzard turns mean nothing positive only negitive because of supplies. GHC can't exploit possible break through because of possible mud turns. There where 2 not one Mud turns during summer. the turn 4 one effected AGN and AGC and of course the very same was true for T15.

Moscow was easly toast with no mud turns, the one on turn 4 was a killer because I had 1 PZ Corp that had HQB on turn 3 and 2 pz Corps that normally HQB turn 4. So the chain was broken and could not restart until turn 6. Thats 3 full turns lost. Also the turn 15 stopped my last 3 turn chain in the middle of it. Moscow was 100% saved because of weather and not tactics for sure.

My game vs Bobo is non random and Moscow was not taken.

Your game play is based on weather cutting short GHC operations and not good game play.

Others have held Moscow because of good game play.

The weather is 100% set up to be worse then what was historically possible. Mud in July, lol Blizzards in October?

Clearly another part of the game with Red bias that needs to be based on historical weather records and not a need to help out SHC. I am 100% sure that witw weather tables are based on rolls that are based off rolls that are only possible to be less then what was historically the worst weather and not like wite which is based so the rolls are set-up to be worse then what was historiclly possible.

Its a joke and is not fooling anyone.

It should be removed until it can be based on historical weather records and not balancing the game.

Its basicly not random at all, when you look at the odds its non-random to be worse then historical.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 8/25/2012 11:19:40 AM >

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

On leave until 9/13

(in reply to bigbaba)

Post #: 89

RE: Panzers East!!!!! Is it gonna go my way? Charge!!!!!!! - 8/25/2012 10:13:37 AM

Pelton

Posts: 4379
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

should be a very intresting blizzard gentlemen with pelton trying to hold as much land as possible.

Thats in north, but really not an option any more over all. The SHC player base has figured out finally after 18 months how to conduct offensive operations in blizzard exploiting cav. Pocketing 10 to 20 divisions is normal now, which again is not historical. The only divisions that got pocketed were russian hehe and operations were limited and not across the hole region.

The only option to GHC vs a good SHC blizzard player is to run 2 hexes per turn in December and 1 to 2 in January.

With the 1.06 rule set as long as SHC runs the first 4 turns and then delays after that until turn 10ish Moscow should be easly held. The only games where it is lost is when the SHC fights forward before turn 10, other then Leningrad area.

The game is about 42 now. Manpower points, german morale and an AP crunch. This is vs a good SHC player.

Vs others Moscow is doable, 4 million kia and an easy winter.

Not sure why Flaviusx thinks he needs to be baby sat by general winter when before 1.06 he never lost Moscow?

Game is basicly bioled down to all things being equal

1. SHC runs east in 1941
2. GHC runs west during 41/42 blizzard
3. SHC runs east during spring 42
4. SHC delays east during 42 summer.
5. GHC defends for 3 yrs.

Not very historical until 43 more like ball room dancing all things being equal.

To make the game feel historical the SHC would have to have a reason to fight forward and be given a huge boost in men or manpower output during 41.

You cant just give SHC a boost, because any non newbie will still run east. There would have to be a VP system based on citys held.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 8/25/2012 10:15:49 AM >

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

On leave until 9/13

(in reply to bigbaba)

Post #: 90

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