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RE: A few reasons to buy

 
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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 3:35:52 AM   
Flaviusx


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Game is pretty good. It's filling a different niche than WitE, though, and probably shouldn't be compared to it. This is a pure 100% operational game focused on particular campaign with no real production system. Scale is different, more compressed time frames and geography.

The battle card system for commanders is really neat, I like this a lot.

AI is adequate. I got a minor Soviet victory without too much trouble playing the Voronezh mini scenario (I missed getting a major by one point.) The AI may be better at defending than attacking. Possibly the lack of room for maneuver in this scenario makes things easier for the defender than in a larger game.




< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 7/18/2012 3:42:21 AM >


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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 5:35:22 AM   
Keunert


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the AI is good enough to challenge you and teach you the game. the best part with all operational games is pbem.

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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 5:59:36 AM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WilliePete

It's good to see some of the more well known people from WitE in this forum. I couldn't agree with you more! CB is an awesome game and it deserves all the attention it can get!

Once I get a little more time behind the wheel, I'd like to get a game going with you, red.


Sure WP - that'd be great. Be warned that I mod better than I play :(

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Post #: 33
RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 6:01:25 AM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gabeeg

I like and play WitE as well but DC:CB is what I want to play in an operational East Front game. For me I feel the GG and team got trapped behind the amount of detail and it was too cumbersome to make changes/fixes without effecting the surrounding or dependent parts, throwing things out of balance. DC:CB is a good example that good, well done abstraction can actually lead to not only a more playable and enjoyable game but a more realistic game....of course this IMHO.

I don't want to bash WitE either...but I would like to discuss what makes people enjoy these games more or less than the other and why that is...is there a concensus or just personal tastes?


+1

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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 6:03:03 AM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves


quote:

ORIGINAL: gabeeg

I like and play WitE as well but DC:CB is what I want to play in an operational East Front game. For me I feel the GG and team got trapped behind the amount of detail and it was too cumbersome to make changes/fixes without effecting the surrounding or dependent parts, throwing things out of balance. DC:CB is a good example that good, well done abstraction can actually lead to not only a more playable and enjoyable game but a more realistic game....of course this IMHO.

I don't want to bash WitE either...but I would like to discuss what makes people enjoy these games more or less than the other and why that is...is there a concensus or just personal tastes?

quote:

what makes people enjoy these


Agree totally with that - I like detail but it has to be presented correctly - and most importantly it has to be understandable to the person playing it. To my mind Grigsby over engineers his products to the point where whilst detailed they fail to present themselves in a way thats understandable to people who dont want to have to put in an insane amount of work figuring things out that the game cant show them. Therefore what you end up with is a lot of people buying his games cause they like the thought of it but in reality only a minute hardcore actually playing them. WiTE was a little different in that I think it was poorly done in that the code had sat around untouched for years and then picked up again.


Exactly right, and you are perfectly entitled to express this view here, or indeed anywhere you choose.

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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 6:04:44 AM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: parusski

I personally agree with you redmarkus4, and I think you have every right to post any thoughts you have about WitE vs...anything else.



Thanks

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Post #: 36
RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 6:10:28 AM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EdinHouston
Please dont bring issues like that to this game's forum. That is something that belongs in the WitE forum, if anywhere. Lets dont use this game as yet another excuse to vent about WitE. In any event this game has out for one day, how about we wait with comparisons about which developer listens and which doesnt.


I'm sorry if you don't like what I have to say, but as far as I am concerned the only major restrictions here are on personal abuse and inappropriate marketing of non-Matrix products, etc. I have expressed my views (at length!) on the WitE forums with zero result. If I want to make comparisons between two games, then either of the relevant forums is an appropriate venue, IMHO.

Are you saying that it would make more sense for me to post about the relative merits of DC on the WitE forum than to post about the relative shortcomings of WitE here? If that's your position, it doesn't seem entirely logical to me.

If, on the other hand, you just don't like my views, well I can't help that, but I apologize for any offence caused.


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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 6:15:51 AM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

I think ppl are still ticked that they paid so much for WITE and the dev team has failed so miserably. I guess different people have different pain points but for me the "unit carpet" syndrome really just makes the game a joke. So I think it deserves some beating.



Exactly. You captured it.

We won't get a better product from our supplier next time unless we express our views on the existing product. It's called 'market forces' or 'consumer power', or something similar, I believe. Often cited as a key driver behind the globalized capitalist system. :)

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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 6:22:45 AM   
redmarkus4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EisenHammer


Just one question. How Is the single player part of the game. I don't care about the MP part or exploits of the game only the AI and SP.


It's hard to judge fully at this early stage, but I have seen some very promising AI behaviour. As Flaviusx pointed out, this might simply be because the scope of the campaign is smaller, but whatever the reason, for the first few turns that I have played, the AI has performed like a reasonably well read newbie human player, which is meant to be a compliment.

All I ask from an AI is that it plays reasonably logically and in a fashion that looks somewhat historical - defending key points, creating a line, withdrawing when in danger of being pocketed (but not at unrealistic speeds), counter attacking, etc. I can impose personal house rules on my own play to ensure that the game plays out and I get a fun experience. I played The Operational Art of War for a decade and although the AI was never perfect, I don't think I ever posted one complaint.

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Post #: 39
RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 6:53:58 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Hi guys,

Comparing/contrasting with WITE is fine, as long as the focus in this forum remains on Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue. However, please remember to keep your comments constructive and civil. Bashing other games or developers is not ok. Expressing opinions on which game is better is fine, just keep in mind they are opinions and others may disagree with you.

2by3 have put a huge amount of additional support into War in the East, in fact another update will be available this week. While some players may disagree with decisions made either before or after release, others are playing and enjoying the game and in my opinion both WITE and Decisive Campaigns deliver a great wargaming experience.

Regards,

- Erik


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Post #: 40
RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 10:05:55 AM   
Micke II


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I have just bought the game yesterday and made 4 turns as German in the scenario Uranus against AI.
In Uranus scenario you immediately understand how desperate is the German situation.  The last unit of ersatz arriving as reinforcement becomes suddenly very important to hold a town in the middle of the steppe and try to delay the advance of the soviet cavalry and tanks. The OOB is very well represented with for example the 22eme panzer which has no tank because historically mice  eaten the electric system of all tanks of this division.
I have been deeply impressed by the quality of the game which is ranking probably number one among the simulations covering this period.
All details in this game have been adjusted to make a top simulation.
-big map but good scale for the time (2 days/turn), for the size of units (regiment level) giving enough units but not thousands of them. Playing a turn does not take forever.
-very simple logistic rules with no intervention of the player.
What is the most impressive is the ability of the designers to have create all the conditions to simulate a movement war.
I know 2 others simulations covering this period where the game turns quickly in a trench war.
Mixing of tactical and strategic considerations is also a "must".  Play cards attached to the HQ needs careful planning and anticipation: is it better to encourage a unit to build a hedgehog defense or to spend a another card to  sustain a counterattack ? Simulation of the aerial war is simple enough but is very realistic with interception of raid by enemy fighters and destruction of tanks or guns  by the bombers.
In brief a good compromise between playability , realism and complexity of the situation.

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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 11:00:54 AM   
glvaca

 

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Well said MickeII, having fired up the Uranus scenario as well (have played this campaign numerous time during my W@W: Stalingrad days) I can say it plays very well.
For me the main difference of importance between WiTE & CB is the unit scale and time difference. 2 days turns do allow for a lot more interaction and time to react to the moves of your opponent without the risk of losing a complete Front in one turn, which is endemic in WiTE. The reduced mobility per turn makes for much more fun and a much more historical feel of the game.

It's a pitty WiTE will not evolve towards a 2-3 day turn system.
Also of note is that although WiTE is supposed to be 10Km/hex as is CB, the map for CB is many hexes largers for the same area. This extra "room" allows for more fluid play. Anyway, these are just my first impressions and I do enjoy WiTE a lot. I'm sure both games can be enjoyed at the same time as they are different.

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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 11:21:56 AM   
redmarkus4


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Great comments. I like the shorter turns as well. I got my Panzers about halfway towards pocketing at least 10 Soviet divisions but had to watch the Sov AI extricating half its troops before I could close the pocket. Very realistic.

And then, once you do close it, the AI breaks in or breaks out, if it can. Excellent modelling here.

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Post #: 43
RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 11:29:27 AM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

...Also of note is that although WiTE is supposed to be 10Km/hex as is CB, ...


Nope. WitE is 10 miles per hex.


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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 11:31:39 AM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3


quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

...Also of note is that although WiTE is supposed to be 10Km/hex as is CB, ...


Nope. WitE is 10 miles per hex.


Ah, why do you barbarians insist on using miles! :-)

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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 12:20:03 PM   
demjansk

 

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wite is a fine game but I wished I waited for the price to come down, wow that was expensive

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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 2:07:08 PM   
Flaviusx


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You can still make pockets at this scale!






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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 2:09:41 PM   
Keunert


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^ the german OKH will play the infamous 'Reverse Pocket' card next turn.

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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 2:09:58 PM   
Flaviusx


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Gonna bag Kliest, too, maybe.






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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 2:17:29 PM   
wodin


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The horror of Stalingrad haunts me, more than an other battle I've read about. Seeing all those soldiers go into captivity and knowing only around 3,000 made it home most in the 1950's after working in led mines or at other gulags etc etc...the horror...

It's the conditions and hopelessness of it that is haunting added to the landscape and knowing they where so far from home..I understand they where the aggressor and all but still, most had grown up with Nazi propaganda constantly from a young age, some knew no different..you can't overlook the inter war years for the germans and how that had affected the country and the youth, who then went on to fight in WW2. That German generation wasn't a freak of nature, we'd all have had the same ideas and thoughts most likely esp if you'd only ever known Nazism and been fed it from birth. They also really where victims of the time they where born in. A sad tale for that generation more or less world wide.

< Message edited by wodin -- 7/18/2012 2:20:58 PM >


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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 2:23:48 PM   
LarryP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca


quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3


quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

...Also of note is that although WiTE is supposed to be 10Km/hex as is CB, ...


Nope. WitE is 10 miles per hex.


Ah, why do you barbarians insist on using miles! :-)


Ummmm, because we don't like the metric system?

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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 2:28:13 PM   
parusski


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quote:

Ummmm, because we don't like the metric system?


Exactly Batman. Why would anyone want to use the overly complex metric system.

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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 2:36:14 PM   
glvaca

 

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Barbarians I say!

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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 2:51:50 PM   
redmarkus4


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In Sweden 1 mile = 10km!!! Vikings!

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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 3:39:10 PM   
PirateJock


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Is an American mile the same as a British mile? How many yards, feet and inches?

Cheers

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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 3:42:32 PM   
elmo3

 

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Sorry I even mentioned that WitE was 10 miles per hex. Maybe we can get back on topic and post some more reasons why folks might want to buy the game?

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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 3:57:35 PM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

Sorry I even mentioned that WitE was 10 miles per hex. Maybe we can get back on topic and post some more reasons why folks might want to buy the game?

Chill out m8. We're just having some innocent fun.

10miles or 10km doesn't detract from the point I was trying to make. You have more hexes, so more room to maneuvre, so perhaps more fluid play. It's all pretty early to say really.

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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 4:12:29 PM   
Ron

 

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I tend to agree with the OP after some early play with Case Blue and extensive play with WitE. After the initial OOB, WitE becomes pure fantasy and gaming exploits, whether talking crazy logistics, the air war, carpet of ants, questionable combat mechanics, NATO like Soviet C&C or design kludges to try and inject some semblance of historical reality. One is left wondering perhaps the baby should have been thrown out with the bath water. WitE does have GG's name, a nice map and ease of play however.

Case Blue feels more like an operational wargame and the player feels like he is making military choices that mirror real military choices. The UI is a little different initially in how attacks are made and will take some adjustment, but the information is presented in a meaningful manner. Also there is an op-tempo to the game that simply seems 'right' and I have barely scratched the surface. I know that's vague but there you go. Once I have learned the system some more against a decent AI I will make the jump into MP.

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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 4:22:33 PM   
Flaviusx


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Ironically, I think the Soviets here are rather more capable than their WitE equivalents for this time period. Go figure.



< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 7/18/2012 4:23:51 PM >


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RE: A few reasons to buy - 7/18/2012 5:03:08 PM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

In Sweden 1 mile = 10km!!! Vikings!


U mean former vikings. Back in the day when sweds were vikings it wasnt quite 10 clicks, but a tad more.
Conform or perish! Maybe the barbarians could learn some thing

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 7/18/2012 5:05:04 PM >

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