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Supply changes - 7/17/2012 12:58:42 PM   
DBeves

 

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Vic - I know supply has changed - think I preffered the old system but can you clarify ?

It now seems that supply is routed to all units only from the supreme hq rather than going through their assigned headquarters first? As I say I think the old system was better but not sure I quite understand the impact. In the manual for WtP it says the AP numbers are from the source HQ - so presumably for WtP that would have been the immediate superior HQ of the unit. Now it seems the range is only counted from the Supreme HQ ? Surely that makes it more diffcult to supply as the ranges to units are inveitably longer from a single HQ than they were going from the many intermmediate HQs. I know we have resource centers etc but am I understanding this correctly ? Does that mean there is now no point doing a supply trace from any HQ other than the supreme HQ.

Sorry - bit unclear on this ...
Post #: 1
RE: Supply changes - 7/17/2012 1:19:33 PM   
sanderz

 

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From: Devon, England
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i was also wondering about this

and did i read somehwere that supreme HQ can't be moved?

also - how exactly does this bit work?

16.10.1. LOGISTICAL BONUS
Minor towns give a 10 supply movement AP bonus, medium towns give a 20 supply
movement AP bonus and a major town gives a 50 supply movement AP bonus.

does it add up all the towns in your own possession? wouldn't this lead to ridiculously long supply lines?

or

does it just count towns on route to each individual unit

or
what?


thanks

(in reply to DBeves)
Post #: 2
RE: Supply changes - 7/17/2012 2:04:19 PM   
DBeves

 

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Mmmm ... well - just checked the supply trace and it now seems it ONLY traces from the superior HQ regardless of what other HQ is selected.

I really dont like this change to the model as it seems a retrograde step for the game as it lowers the importance of HQs. Also - I had presumed the air supply worked by dropping the supply on an HQ in a pocket and then it would distribute supplies in the pocket - given the rule change it would seem this cannot now work like this so - as the manual doesnt say so - I presume you have to actually drop it on each individual unit. I am aware its likely that Vic ran into some programming issues with the trace to hqs - but as I say - do feel its a retrograde step.

(in reply to sanderz)
Post #: 3
RE: Supply changes - 7/17/2012 2:33:25 PM   
Kumppi


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I'm not 100% sure, but it seems to work something like this.

Let's say OKH (which is where the supply trace always starts) is in a medium town. So that gives you a 20 supply movement AP bonus. Now if you start to count from that town going by rail hexes you only have to pay 1 AP until you reach the hex that is 21 rail hexes away from OKH. Now after that you have to pay 1 AP for each rail hex. If there is another town let's say 10 rail hexes away from OKH it does not give any bonuses to your supply movement, because that town is INSIDE your original supply movement bonus range. It's only after a supply movement bonus has ended that a town gives you another bonus and the size of that bonus is depended on size of the town.

I hope that makes some sense

< Message edited by Kumppi -- 7/17/2012 2:36:18 PM >

(in reply to DBeves)
Post #: 4
RE: Supply changes - 7/17/2012 3:14:33 PM   
Vic


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Hi there DBeves,

Airsupply into a pocket is distributed to all units and HQs in the pocket. So just do an air supply mission on anairfield hex and you'll get some supplies to all units.

As for the supply routes. Yes its a simplification. I found a lot of people playing DC1 had problems wrapping their head around it since you could not show 1 layer on the map that would give the supply network for all units (since the supply state of a hex is different based on the command chain of a unit).

This is more straight forward.

I am sorry I did not make everything more complicated, there have been a number of design choices in which i made things a little bit easier. Also it was really a lot of calculations and slowed the game down quite much.

If you want you can do a public beta test with the old rules. Go to the editor => stngs => rulevars => select category 'supply' => set rulevar 887 to 0 (disabling easy supply/autoreinf rules)
This should work properly for supply, but has not been fully tested with replacement troops (which are also routed through HQs now). Any feedback is welcome, but playing with this option turned on falls outside regular game support, so no guarantees. Also expect a significant wait at startup of turn of like around minute when playing with this option turned on.

also... hi sanderz,
The logistical center bonus is only cumulative if the radius' of the bonus of the different towns do not overlap.

Hope this helps.

Best,
Vic

< Message edited by Vic -- 7/17/2012 3:17:06 PM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to DBeves)
Post #: 5
RE: Supply changes - 7/17/2012 4:13:00 PM   
DBeves

 

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Joined: 7/29/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Hi there DBeves,

Airsupply into a pocket is distributed to all units and HQs in the pocket. So just do an air supply mission on anairfield hex and you'll get some supplies to all units.

As for the supply routes. Yes its a simplification. I found a lot of people playing DC1 had problems wrapping their head around it since you could not show 1 layer on the map that would give the supply network for all units (since the supply state of a hex is different based on the command chain of a unit).

This is more straight forward.

I am sorry I did not make everything more complicated, there have been a number of design choices in which i made things a little bit easier. Also it was really a lot of calculations and slowed the game down quite much.

If you want you can do a public beta test with the old rules. Go to the editor => stngs => rulevars => select category 'supply' => set rulevar 887 to 0 (disabling easy supply/autoreinf rules)
This should work properly for supply, but has not been fully tested with replacement troops (which are also routed through HQs now). Any feedback is welcome, but playing with this option turned on falls outside regular game support, so no guarantees. Also expect a significant wait at startup of turn of like around minute when playing with this option turned on.

also... hi sanderz,
The logistical center bonus is only cumulative if the radius' of the bonus of the different towns do not overlap.

Hope this helps.

Best,
Vic


Thanks Vic - I may give that a try ... So you can only airdrop supply to an airfield ? Manual doesnt explicitly say that ... so its considered landed supply rather than parachuted ?

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 6
RE: Supply changes - 7/17/2012 4:26:43 PM   
Vic


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@DBeves,

You do not lose any supplies if you drop on an airfield. If you try to deliver to a non-airfield hex it will be considered parachuted and you'll lose half the supplies dropped.

best,
Vic

< Message edited by Vic -- 7/17/2012 4:28:10 PM >


_____________________________

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www.vrdesigns.nl

(in reply to DBeves)
Post #: 7
RE: Supply changes - 7/17/2012 4:36:14 PM   
DBeves

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

@DBeves,

You do not lose any supplies if you drop on an airfield. If you try to deliver to a non-airfield hex it will be considered parachuted and you'll lose half the supplies dropped.

best,
Vic


Thanks Vic ... Fantastic Game ....

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 8
RE: Supply changes - 7/17/2012 10:09:46 PM   
DBeves

 

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Joined: 7/29/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Hi there DBeves,

Airsupply into a pocket is distributed to all units and HQs in the pocket. So just do an air supply mission on anairfield hex and you'll get some supplies to all units.

As for the supply routes. Yes its a simplification. I found a lot of people playing DC1 had problems wrapping their head around it since you could not show 1 layer on the map that would give the supply network for all units (since the supply state of a hex is different based on the command chain of a unit).

This is more straight forward.

I am sorry I did not make everything more complicated, there have been a number of design choices in which i made things a little bit easier. Also it was really a lot of calculations and slowed the game down quite much.

If you want you can do a public beta test with the old rules. Go to the editor => stngs => rulevars => select category 'supply' => set rulevar 887 to 0 (disabling easy supply/autoreinf rules)
This should work properly for supply, but has not been fully tested with replacement troops (which are also routed through HQs now). Any feedback is welcome, but playing with this option turned on falls outside regular game support, so no guarantees. Also expect a significant wait at startup of turn of like around minute when playing with this option turned on.

also... hi sanderz,
The logistical center bonus is only cumulative if the radius' of the bonus of the different towns do not overlap.

Hope this helps.

Best,
Vic



I tried this vic - and one thing I immediately noticed was that 11th army HQ eneded up with 5 stukas in it inventory of troops. one of its air units had requested the replacements but they seemed to get stuck in the HQ and not passed on. A turn later they were gone - passed to an air unit. It also got 100 romanian infentry which stayed with the HQ - so guess its not working with replacements

edit ... scrub the bit about the romanian infantry - seems they were passed on but to a corps hq within 11th army ... so it seems the replacements stop at the HQ then pass on down the chain in the following turns to end up where they should. That actually sounds kind of good to me - but I guess not how you envisaged it working ...

< Message edited by DBeves -- 7/17/2012 10:20:10 PM >

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 9
RE: Supply changes - 7/17/2012 11:55:38 PM   
Tejszd

 

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Definitely think the old supply option/rules sound better. Could you not show the supply route based on the individual unit selected or the unit on top of a stack in a hex?

(in reply to DBeves)
Post #: 10
RE: Supply changes - 7/18/2012 12:16:19 AM   
DBeves

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tejszd

Definitely think the old supply option/rules sound better. Could you not show the supply route based on the individual unit selected or the unit on top of a stack in a hex?

quote:

based on the individual unit selected


Personally I think vic scrubbed this method not so much due to the supply trace layer which was at best just an aide, but more due to the impact on the turn processing. It does take longer but personally its tolerable for me with it turned on. It takes longer but in a game this large I can wait a minute or so before I launch into a turn that may take hours to complete in the larger scenarios. I guess he thought people would notice and complain. Would be nice if the replacement system worked and we could have an optional rule to take the hit.

(in reply to Tejszd)
Post #: 11
RE: Supply changes - 7/18/2012 11:26:37 AM   
DBeves

 

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Joined: 7/29/2002
Status: offline
.

< Message edited by DBeves -- 7/18/2012 11:32:35 AM >

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Post #: 12
RE: Supply changes - 7/18/2012 11:55:16 AM   
Vic


Posts: 3632
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Hi there DBeves,

Airsupply into a pocket is distributed to all units and HQs in the pocket. So just do an air supply mission on anairfield hex and you'll get some supplies to all units.

As for the supply routes. Yes its a simplification. I found a lot of people playing DC1 had problems wrapping their head around it since you could not show 1 layer on the map that would give the supply network for all units (since the supply state of a hex is different based on the command chain of a unit).

This is more straight forward.

I am sorry I did not make everything more complicated, there have been a number of design choices in which i made things a little bit easier. Also it was really a lot of calculations and slowed the game down quite much.

If you want you can do a public beta test with the old rules. Go to the editor => stngs => rulevars => select category 'supply' => set rulevar 887 to 0 (disabling easy supply/autoreinf rules)
This should work properly for supply, but has not been fully tested with replacement troops (which are also routed through HQs now). Any feedback is welcome, but playing with this option turned on falls outside regular game support, so no guarantees. Also expect a significant wait at startup of turn of like around minute when playing with this option turned on.

also... hi sanderz,
The logistical center bonus is only cumulative if the radius' of the bonus of the different towns do not overlap.

Hope this helps.

Best,
Vic



I tried this vic - and one thing I immediately noticed was that 11th army HQ eneded up with 5 stukas in it inventory of troops. one of its air units had requested the replacements but they seemed to get stuck in the HQ and not passed on. A turn later they were gone - passed to an air unit. It also got 100 romanian infentry which stayed with the HQ - so guess its not working with replacements

edit ... scrub the bit about the romanian infantry - seems they were passed on but to a corps hq within 11th army ... so it seems the replacements stop at the HQ then pass on down the chain in the following turns to end up where they should. That actually sounds kind of good to me - but I guess not how you envisaged it working ...


Hi,

Actually this is intended behaviour with the Easy Supply/Replacement rule switched off. There is supposed to be a delay as the replacements trickle down the chain of command.

Best,
Vic


_____________________________

Victor Reijkersz Designs
www.vrdesigns.nl

(in reply to DBeves)
Post #: 13
RE: Supply changes - 7/18/2012 12:04:10 PM   
DBeves

 

Posts: 393
Joined: 7/29/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic


quote:

ORIGINAL: DBeves

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

Hi there DBeves,

Airsupply into a pocket is distributed to all units and HQs in the pocket. So just do an air supply mission on anairfield hex and you'll get some supplies to all units.

As for the supply routes. Yes its a simplification. I found a lot of people playing DC1 had problems wrapping their head around it since you could not show 1 layer on the map that would give the supply network for all units (since the supply state of a hex is different based on the command chain of a unit).

This is more straight forward.

I am sorry I did not make everything more complicated, there have been a number of design choices in which i made things a little bit easier. Also it was really a lot of calculations and slowed the game down quite much.

If you want you can do a public beta test with the old rules. Go to the editor => stngs => rulevars => select category 'supply' => set rulevar 887 to 0 (disabling easy supply/autoreinf rules)
This should work properly for supply, but has not been fully tested with replacement troops (which are also routed through HQs now). Any feedback is welcome, but playing with this option turned on falls outside regular game support, so no guarantees. Also expect a significant wait at startup of turn of like around minute when playing with this option turned on.

also... hi sanderz,
The logistical center bonus is only cumulative if the radius' of the bonus of the different towns do not overlap.

Hope this helps.

Best,
Vic



I tried this vic - and one thing I immediately noticed was that 11th army HQ eneded up with 5 stukas in it inventory of troops. one of its air units had requested the replacements but they seemed to get stuck in the HQ and not passed on. A turn later they were gone - passed to an air unit. It also got 100 romanian infentry which stayed with the HQ - so guess its not working with replacements

edit ... scrub the bit about the romanian infantry - seems they were passed on but to a corps hq within 11th army ... so it seems the replacements stop at the HQ then pass on down the chain in the following turns to end up where they should. That actually sounds kind of good to me - but I guess not how you envisaged it working ...


Hi,

Actually this is intended behaviour with the Easy Supply/Replacement rule switched off. There is supposed to be a delay as the replacements trickle down the chain of command.

Best,
Vic



Right ok Vic ... as I said - that sounds more sensible to me....will try a bit more with it.

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 14
RE: Supply changes - 7/31/2012 7:53:02 AM   
Grotius


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From: The Imperial Palace.
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This thread is helpful, but I would love a bit more detail about how the APs for supply movement are calculated. In the starting Kharkov scenario as Germany, I can't understand why some AP costs are 9, some are 1, some are 53, etc. The terrain movement costs don't seem to add up right, even accounting for the "structural" bonuses from cities en route.

Does a city with 2000 structural points "subtract" 20 APs from the route? 1000 structural points subtracts 10 APs? Does this subtraction happen only once per city en route, as long as the supply passes through that city? If the total AP cost is 5 and the supply route then reaches a city with a -20 AP bonus, is the count reset to 0, or 1, or -15?

Also, it seems that every route to a unit is traced through its immediate HQ, even though that HQ no longer plays a role in distributing supply. Am I mistaken about that?

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RE: Supply changes - 7/31/2012 8:26:19 AM   
Vic


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Joined: 5/17/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius

This thread is helpful, but I would love a bit more detail about how the APs for supply movement are calculated. In the starting Kharkov scenario as Germany, I can't understand why some AP costs are 9, some are 1, some are 53, etc. The terrain movement costs don't seem to add up right, even accounting for the "structural" bonuses from cities en route.

Does a city with 2000 structural points "subtract" 20 APs from the route? 1000 structural points subtracts 10 APs? Does this subtraction happen only once per city en route, as long as the supply passes through that city? If the total AP cost is 5 and the supply route then reaches a city with a -20 AP bonus, is the count reset to 0, or 1, or -15?

Also, it seems that every route to a unit is traced through its immediate HQ, even though that HQ no longer plays a role in distributing supply. Am I mistaken about that?


the logistical bonus is not subtracted, but will result in free AP points for the hexes still to be traveled (except the 1st AP point out of the city).

best,
Vic


_____________________________

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www.vrdesigns.nl

(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 16
RE: Supply changes - 7/31/2012 8:41:56 AM   
Grotius


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Ah, OK, that helps some. Thanks!

So after leaving a town with logistical bonus of 10, the first rail hex traveled would cost 1 AP, and there would be no additional cost until the 11th AP expended. So, if traveling entirely along rail with no other cities, the 11th or 12th hex would start to incur AP costs again. Is that about right?

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Post #: 17
RE: Supply changes - 7/31/2012 8:59:20 AM   
Vic


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@Grotius: yes it is :)

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Post #: 18
RE: Supply changes - 7/31/2012 1:39:04 PM   
balto

 

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Whoa, can I piggy back off of that example using different words?

1) If it takes you 100AP for Supply to reach a 2000 structural city, what is the first hex out of the city.., 100? Then after 20 more AP, it becomes 101?

2) Same situation as (1), but the City gets attacked and suffers 1000 damage. After this attack, the city's structure is 1000. Are the free AP for Supply now only 10?

3) If this is still correct, then a unit in situation (1) was 20 Supply away from the town (thus having a Supply of 100). The town gets attacked and is now down to 1000 Structure (which only now gives a bonus of 10). Is that unit's Supply AP now go from 100 to 110 due to the structure damage to the city?




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Post #: 19
RE: Supply changes - 8/1/2012 3:54:16 PM   
Blind Sniper


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quote:


1) If it takes you 100AP for Supply to reach a 2000 structural city, what is the first hex out of the city.., 100? Then after 20 more AP, it becomes 101?


No, I think that in the first rail hex out of the city you still pay one (101), then you will not pay for other 20 hexes (supply movement bonus), finally from 22nd hex forward you will pay again.

quote:

2) Same situation as (1), but the City gets attacked and suffers 1000 damage. After this attack, the city's structure is 1000. Are the free AP for Supply now only 10?

3) If this is still correct, then a unit in situation (1) was 20 Supply away from the town (thus having a Supply of 100). The town gets attacked and is now down to 1000 Structure (which only now gives a bonus of 10). Is that unit's Supply AP now go from 100 to 110 due to the structure damage to the city?



I don't know, reading 16.10.2 I would say no bonus until all damages are repaired but I'm not sure.

< Message edited by Blind Sniper -- 8/1/2012 3:55:20 PM >


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Post #: 20
RE: Supply changes - 8/1/2012 4:21:45 PM   
balto

 

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Thank you for answer #1.

I meant to test the game last night for #2 but I was watching the Orioles trounce the Yankees!! If I can remember, I will test that tonight.

The manual says 5 to 10 turns, but it is not clear, as you state, that this means before it gets back to 100% of that it is completely out of commission for 5 to 10 turns, or that is partially down for 5 to 10 turns.

I would think that if any level of damage stopped it from producing supply bonuses, everyone would start bombing cities and paralyze each other.

< Message edited by balto -- 8/1/2012 4:22:30 PM >

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Post #: 21
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