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RE: Lesson Learned

 
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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/19/2013 5:46:00 AM   
JocMeister

 

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Pax, I didnīt write that!

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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/19/2013 1:11:46 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


Well, we have to disagree here. I use combined sweeps and LRCAP to great effect. As does my opponent. The benefit to LRCAP with sweeps is the LRCAP fighters can (not always) show up in multiple rounds to support sweeps, so if your sweeps go in one at at time, you will have support. And more fighting passes due to the LRCAP fighting in multiple rounds. In addition if you are sending in bombers on the same turn the LRCAP will provide them escort as well while not suffering the penalty that regular escort will. The drawback is high fatigue but this is worth it in my eyes if you can rotate units. I "never" escort bombers with anything but LRCAP. In my four year old game we have about 42,000 destroyed Japanese aircraft to 29,000 Allied. Seems about right.

I saw nothing wrong with Brad's attack except that he went in to combat vs superior numbers. A 55-85 kill ratio considering the odds is a pretty darn good result in my book. With the George and Frank having such poor service rating, all other things being equal, the Japanese will wear down. If the Japanese are not at a base with a rail line, then a couple of turns sweeping, and then as Obvert says a massive bombing attack to kill all of the disabled Franks and Georges that are stuck on the ground.

If he has too many fighters there then hit him elsewhere where there are not so many. The key is to have superior numbers when you attack and the Japanese aircraft will get chewed up.

One limitation to the Japanese player vastly expanding air groups is that he has no way of adding air support in his ground units. Something that he is short of anyways. GJ may be able to concentrate aviation support at one or two key bases but he will be short of this elsewhere. There are just only so many aircraft the he can support. If I recall the Japanese army gets one 81 plane fighter squadron and some that are in the 40-50 range. The bulk are smaller. It is the units that fit on carriers that can be expanded and you will need to discuss that with him.



Well, we are in agreement to disagree! I should also add that my opponent and I have agreed on not using LRCAP for escort since it circumvents the penalties for escort. I thought this was a pretty standard HR? That HR certainly makes it even harder to use LRCAP in general. At least in areas where you are conducting bombing missions as you have virtually no control over where it shows up.

Sweep, sweep sweep!



It's interesting that since we stopped using LR CAP offensively Jocke has figured out the other methods that are just as effective but not so abstract and uncontrollable.

The issue for me with LR CAP and escorting bombers is that it is there supporting EVERY fragment in the raid. So somehow even though those fragments are meant to represent packages arriving at different times and in different portions of the sky over the course of a phase, the LR CAP magically appears in ALL areas, always at 32-40k, above my planes' max altitude (by 2nd best maneuver HR) and is immediately back at FULL strength and diving. That is silly and gives a tremendous advantage to the attacker. Escort is screwed of course, but if played well, the Allies don't really need much of it for 2E and 4E raids. Just a lot of sweeps and mass concentrated strikes.

The main point in all of this is that wearing down a big base or set of bases is and should be a process. There should not be a magic bullet to get through those kind of defenses. Would the game be much fun if there was?

< Message edited by obvert -- 5/19/2013 1:13:47 PM >


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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/19/2013 3:39:35 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Pax, I didnīt write that!

Oooops!!! Sorry, fixed it. A little to quick with the delete key.

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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/20/2013 3:36:36 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


Well, we have to disagree here. I use combined sweeps and LRCAP to great effect. As does my opponent. The benefit to LRCAP with sweeps is the LRCAP fighters can (not always) show up in multiple rounds to support sweeps, so if your sweeps go in one at at time, you will have support. And more fighting passes due to the LRCAP fighting in multiple rounds. In addition if you are sending in bombers on the same turn the LRCAP will provide them escort as well while not suffering the penalty that regular escort will. The drawback is high fatigue but this is worth it in my eyes if you can rotate units. I "never" escort bombers with anything but LRCAP. In my four year old game we have about 42,000 destroyed Japanese aircraft to 29,000 Allied. Seems about right.

I saw nothing wrong with Brad's attack except that he went in to combat vs superior numbers. A 55-85 kill ratio considering the odds is a pretty darn good result in my book. With the George and Frank having such poor service rating, all other things being equal, the Japanese will wear down. If the Japanese are not at a base with a rail line, then a couple of turns sweeping, and then as Obvert says a massive bombing attack to kill all of the disabled Franks and Georges that are stuck on the ground.

If he has too many fighters there then hit him elsewhere where there are not so many. The key is to have superior numbers when you attack and the Japanese aircraft will get chewed up.

One limitation to the Japanese player vastly expanding air groups is that he has no way of adding air support in his ground units. Something that he is short of anyways. GJ may be able to concentrate aviation support at one or two key bases but he will be short of this elsewhere. There are just only so many aircraft the he can support. If I recall the Japanese army gets one 81 plane fighter squadron and some that are in the 40-50 range. The bulk are smaller. It is the units that fit on carriers that can be expanded and you will need to discuss that with him.



Well, we are in agreement to disagree! I should also add that my opponent and I have agreed on not using LRCAP for escort since it circumvents the penalties for escort. I thought this was a pretty standard HR? That HR certainly makes it even harder to use LRCAP in general. At least in areas where you are conducting bombing missions as you have virtually no control over where it shows up.

Sweep, sweep sweep!



No I don't think that HR is very common. At least I have not seen it in many AARs. Besides if it is allowed for both players then it really does not matter if you allow it or not. I am not a big fan of the escort penalty and just look at LRCAP as a way of having free ranging escort over the target vs close escort. Something that the Allies were doing more frequently as the war progressed. Japan was stuck with close escort to the end, primarily due to the lack of sufficient radios.

Besides if I am not mistaken GJ uses this tactic himself. And why not? It works pretty well and in my mind creates much more historical results.

I would be curious to hear who else bans the practice in their campaigns.


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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/20/2013 7:03:49 PM   
JocMeister

 

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I see your reasoning with LRCAP being more of a free ranging escort. But my experience is the LRCAP will pretty much guarantee success. As Erik says given enough numbers they can stay up all day protection virtually all incoming strikes and decimate the defending CAP in the process.

I very much doubt this was the intention of the developers. If so why put the escort mission in there at all? As I said I see your reasoning but using LRCAP instead of Escort is just too powerful. As long as I bothered to set the LRCAP up the defender would have almost no chance whatsoever to get to the bombers. That just doesnīt feel right to me.

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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/20/2013 7:13:15 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I see your reasoning with LRCAP being more of a free ranging escort. But my experience is the LRCAP will pretty much guarantee success. As Erik says given enough numbers they can stay up all day protection virtually all incoming strikes and decimate the defending CAP in the process.

I very much doubt this was the intention of the developers. If so why put the escort mission in there at all? As I said I see your reasoning but using LRCAP instead of Escort is just too powerful. As long as I bothered to set the LRCAP up the defender would have almost no chance whatsoever to get to the bombers. That just doesnīt feel right to me.


Isn't LRCAP still constrained by ops points, or passes, or something? I ack that it hangs around for the whole phase--so does CAP--but CAP eventually runs out of points and lands. I see this all the time with multiple enemy sweeps. You're not saying the LRCAP is at the same effectiveness on every attack are you? For any N of attacks?

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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/21/2013 7:24:42 PM   
Q-Ball


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11-15-43:

I haven't posted in awhile, been busy, but so has the US Navy

HMS Hermes:

Remember her? She ate 3 torpedoes in the Indian Ocean, about 20 hexes from Cocos. Somehow, she survived the initial hits with a major float damage of 95. I almost scuttled her, but instead wanted to see if she could make it.

She actually made it halfway to Cocos before the pumps finally failed, and she went under.

It's not a big deal; HERMES has puny AA value, about the only use is to stick some Marine fighters on her as an add-on. Oh well.

Burma:

We swept Shwebo to see if we could get any leakers; but the 400+ fighters at Mandalay are all set to ZERO range apparently. We got our timing right for once, and after a couple turns bombed the crap out of Magwe; most of the oil now is toast, one or two more runs should do it.

I would have toasted Magwe sooner, but we had a HR against any strat bombing until late 1943, except in Aus/India/US. This is because the Japanese can bomb China easily to restrict supplies, and in return, I held-off on Burma. Gloves are off now, so Magwe can be turned into rubble.

Not sure if I will go after the 400+ plane death star at Mandalay; probably not, but if he keeps range at Zero, that means I own the rest of the airspace anyway, barring pop-up CAP.

Hollandia:

We focused a huge fleet north of Darwin; this facilitated a loss-free landing at Hollandia, of 2 Marine Div, 2 Tank Units, HQ, and guns.

There are over 30,000 defenders at Hollandia; I've been bombing it now for 6 weeks, and it is cut-off from supply. If the supplies are nearly out, it will fall pretty easily, since I can bombard it at will. If not, it will take awhile.

I can't just crawl up the NG coast 3 hexes a month; but this will allow us to keep moving without naval support, and also will cut-off the 35,000 man garrison at Vanimo, which he would either have to withdraw by floatplane over 12+ hexes, or leave to rot.

I dont' know if this strategy of cutting-off IJA troops is really working; he has lots of stranded troops, I'll have to do a survey at some point, but there are many garrisons. The guys at Shortlands are impaling themselves on Torokina in order to die, but most are just starving, if they haven't been flown out. Rabaul has over 30,000 troops, and that will be left to die.

DEI:

Big move is in the DEI. All my CVs, and BBs, are focused there. See map below.

Not sure I am ready to charge to meet him, not while he has LBA support, and I don't. I want to even things out there, and get the last of my CVs back, before doing so (LEX and SARA are nearly there; they have completed repairs, and will join the fleet shortly). But when the time comes, I will gladly take a bloody exchange, especially near a major port like Darwin.

On the shot below, I have Bathurst and Darwin stacked with fighters providing more LRCAP over ships, plus bombers set to Nav Attack

The initial target is Selaroe; this is a very conservative one, but I want another airfield that cannot be shut down easily. This will even things out, and create some space for me. Once I secure Selaroe, I can move pretty quickly, because I'll have LBA, I won't care about a fight, and I have the troops prepped.

I am also buildling up for a landing completely elsewhere......but for now, we're here, where I can leverage my LBA, and where I don't need to defeat KB to make progress






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 5/21/2013 10:23:39 PM >

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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/22/2013 2:53:21 PM   
Lecivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Isn't LRCAP still constrained by ops points, or passes, or something? I ack that it hangs around for the whole phase--so does CAP--but CAP eventually runs out of points and lands. I see this all the time with multiple enemy sweeps. You're not saying the LRCAP is at the same effectiveness on every attack are you? For any N of attacks?


I can confirm LRCAP reduces in effect per combat cycles in a single turn.

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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/22/2013 8:38:30 PM   
JocMeister

 

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From what I can tell in my game LRCAP seem to hang around A LOT longer than CAP. Donīt have anything more than a feeling to support that though!

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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/24/2013 2:39:57 PM   
Q-Ball


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11-20-43

A busy few days, mostly in the air....

Burma:

Greyjoy ambushed one of my bombing runs on Magwe, with over 500 fighters! Recon showed Magwe empty the turn before, most were LRCAP from Mandalay. We've had sweepers at Shwebo looking for leakers, so he must have guessed right.

The result was a bloodbath; I lost over 270 planes. We did sweep with 100 P-47s and 30 Spits, supported by 200 other types on LRCAP, but we only shot down 100 Japanese fighters.

I am out of answers on how to defeat the Japanese air in Burma, unless anyone has some. With 500 fighters at Mandalay, until I can get 500 decent fighters in Burma, I have no chance. I can bomb things here and there, but inevitably we end-up in a buzzsaw and get slaughtered. I had several successful runs before this one, so it only takes 1 good guess out of 10 to get a huge kill ratio.

With all the blood in Burma, the other issue is that his pilots there are undoubtedly the best he has

Any other suggestions? Otherwise, I give up in Burma, and I am going to land or attack elsewhere, until he has to move some of those 500 fighters. That has to be a good chunk of the IJAAF.

DEI:

We successfullyl landed at Selaroe, without oppossition in air or naval, and took the place quickly, annihilating the 10,000 garrison. He has 2/3 of a division there, we landed 2 divisions, with Corp HQ and engineers. It fell very quickly.

I attempted last turn to attack IJN shipping at Boela; it was there the turn before, but he moved his combat TFs; fortunate. The other problem is that I set 3 TFs to move the 9 hexes to Darwin; all were maxed in fuel, but only 1 of the 3 made it into position. I hate that with CVs! They never go as far as you want them to.

So, while our sweep on Boela was very successful, we lost alot of planes attacking relatively minor targets. We sank 3 Yusen AKs, at least they are the best transports, but not worth it. He lost 200 planes to my 170. At least my losses were all replaceable types (mostly Hellcats and Avengers)

We need to clear the area, because my airgroups are tired from this battle on the CVs; if KB is around, he'll run in looking for an exchange, but not while our guys are depleted....no thank you.

He may try to bombard Molu; I have lots of DDs, PTs, Mines, Subs there, so he can do it, but I hope to continue to make it expensive. I also cleared out any good fighters, and stocked it with ones I can lose (P-39s, Hellcats, etc)




Attachment (1)

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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/24/2013 3:08:52 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Regarding Burma,

I have told you how to do it. Sweep, sweep, sweep. Forget LRCAP and escorting bombers. Sweep sweep sweep.

I think you have given away too many easy kills to him so he has probably managed to build a good backbone of experienced fighters. You are now paying the price for it. It will cost you but eventually those pilots will have to be replaced by green ones. Once that happens you will start seeing good results if you can keep your own experience up.

Iīve done some experimenting lately with green pilots (EXP50/Air70/Def70) in Corsairs/P38s. You will still come out on top with perhaps 2:1 even against Franks. Problem is that the allies wonīt have the pools to sustain the airframe losses with that ratio. So you need to rely on pilot superiority and I donīt think you have that now and that is your biggest issue. Your P47s should be piloted by EXP80+ pilots facing EXP50 pilots. Until you achieve that you wonīt be seeing 6:1 and better results.

What does the total losses look like? How many P47s/Corsairs/Spit VII have you lost? What are you pools look like (both pilot and plane)?


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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/24/2013 4:46:12 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
green pilots (EXP50/Air70/Def70) in Corsairs/P38s.


While your testing is interesting, I'd argue that these are not 'green' Allied pilots by most players' standards. These represent pilots coming out of a (several) months-long on-map training program and ready for frontline combat deployment.

How's your test for truly green pilots (EXP 50/Air 50/ Def 50) in the same planes? I'd reckon that the Japanese trained and experience pilots eat these guys' lunches on a 4:1 basis.

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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/24/2013 5:06:30 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
green pilots (EXP50/Air70/Def70) in Corsairs/P38s.


While your testing is interesting, I'd argue that these are not 'green' Allied pilots by most players' standards. These represent pilots coming out of a (several) months-long on-map training program and ready for frontline combat deployment.

How's your test for truly green pilots (EXP 50/Air 50/ Def 50) in the same planes? I'd reckon that the Japanese trained and experience pilots eat these guys' lunches on a 4:1 basis.


Getting them from 50/50/50 to 50/70/70 is just a 1-1,5 month worth of training or so. Perhaps during 42 this would be necessary but hardly after that?

Personally I have never committed pilots with lower airskill than 70. But during the early days I cut back on DEF to first 50 and then 60. I donīt know how other people do it obviously but getting 50/70/70 is really quick work and this is my absolute lowest I would ever consider committing to battle. So these are my green pilots! They are usually stuck with backwater CAP for a 2-3 months before being pulled back to the reserve.

But if I would try with 50/50/50 pilots I agree with you. They would certainly be eaten alive despite being in superior airframes. So that would be wasting pilots and airframes. Something to avoid!



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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/24/2013 5:15:22 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
green pilots (EXP50/Air70/Def70) in Corsairs/P38s.


While your testing is interesting, I'd argue that these are not 'green' Allied pilots by most players' standards. These represent pilots coming out of a (several) months-long on-map training program and ready for frontline combat deployment.

How's your test for truly green pilots (EXP 50/Air 50/ Def 50) in the same planes? I'd reckon that the Japanese trained and experience pilots eat these guys' lunches on a 4:1 basis.


Getting them from 50/50/50 to 50/70/70 is just a 1-1,5 month worth of training or so. Perhaps during 42 this would be necessary but hardly after that?

Personally I have never committed pilots with lower airskill than 70. But during the early days I cut back on DEF to first 50 and then 60. I donīt know how other people do it obviously but getting 50/70/70 is really quick work and this is my absolute lowest I would ever consider committing to battle. So these are my green pilots! They are usually stuck with backwater CAP for a 2-3 months before being pulled back to the reserve.

But if I would try with 50/50/50 pilots I agree with you. They would certainly be eaten alive despite being in superior airframes. So that would be wasting pilots and airframes. Something to avoid!





Hi JocMeister,

I don't disagree with anything you've written, it's revolving around the definition of 'green'. By my definition, 'green' pilots are those fresh out of the replacement pool, NOT those that have undergone on map training. I too wouldn't consider deploying pilots until their various skill sets approximated those you've shown above (after map training). I don't consider those 'green' though.

Cheers,

Chickenboy

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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/24/2013 5:18:18 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Ah, I see. Perhaps I should have written "Combat trained" instead of green!

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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/24/2013 5:19:49 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Ah, I see. Perhaps I should have written "Combat trained" instead of green!

Aye. I think "trained" or "combat trained" would be more descriptive of this type of pilot that you're advocating.

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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/26/2013 3:39:45 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I see your reasoning with LRCAP being more of a free ranging escort. But my experience is the LRCAP will pretty much guarantee success. As Erik says given enough numbers they can stay up all day protection virtually all incoming strikes and decimate the defending CAP in the process.

I very much doubt this was the intention of the developers. If so why put the escort mission in there at all? As I said I see your reasoning but using LRCAP instead of Escort is just too powerful. As long as I bothered to set the LRCAP up the defender would have almost no chance whatsoever to get to the bombers. That just doesnīt feel right to me.


Isn't LRCAP still constrained by ops points, or passes, or something? I ack that it hangs around for the whole phase--so does CAP--but CAP eventually runs out of points and lands. I see this all the time with multiple enemy sweeps. You're not saying the LRCAP is at the same effectiveness on every attack are you? For any N of attacks?


Well it can be variable and sometimes does not show up at all. So I don't think it is so uber as to need banning. However, not allowing it will mean unacceptable and unhistorical Allied bomber losses. I am in 4/45 in my game vs Ark and am very careful with my bombers. As it is I have virtually no bombers in my pools. Without LRCAP as escorts I would have no bombers at all. That seems wrong to me.

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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/26/2013 12:13:46 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
Well it can be variable and sometimes does not show up at all. So I don't think it is so uber as to need banning. However, not allowing it will mean unacceptable and unhistorical Allied bomber losses. I am in 4/45 in my game vs Ark and am very careful with my bombers. As it is I have virtually no bombers in my pools. Without LRCAP as escorts I would have no bombers at all. That seems wrong to me.


I am too very careful with my bombers. Even more so since I have never used LRCAP for escort. But I have managed to keep a healthy pool of bombers for most of the time. It has dipped on occasion and the RAF in particular have suffered some crippling losses at times. But I would say my pools are quite healthy. So its quite possible to play with a HR against using LRCAP for escort.

The biggest problem with LRCAP for escort isnīt the extra protection it gives the bombers but rather the losses inflicted by the LRCAP on the defensive side. As Erik says it looks like the LRCAP magically teleports up to specified LRCAP height after each encounter which gives the LRCAP dive after dive after dive. And we all know how powerful that is.

My personal view is that LRCAP shouldnīt be used as an intentional escort. Its just a deliberate circumvention of the penalties given to the escort role. But if both sides agrees its fine why not? But I think it greatly aids the allied side and hurts the Japanese.

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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/29/2013 3:09:47 PM   
Q-Ball


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11-28-43

Greyjoy lauched an all-out raid on my fleet at Darwin. The results were not pretty; I lost 4 Old BBs, though we did shoot down about 600 planes. I won't post a combat report, because Greyjoy probably did.

This is very disappointing; I had those BBs out of port temporarily, setting a trap at Selaroe, instead of under cover. Once again, Greyjoy outguessed me.

Luck?

In Greyjoy's e-mail, he cursed his luck, and said were it not for the weather, he should have sunk my CVs.

First, I told him I felt a little insulted, as if I should be losing much worse than I am, if not for a run of bad luck on his part.

Second, because of the sync bug, this turn we actually go to see what happened with clear skies over Darwin. In the replay I saw, all his sweeps came in, and got killed. I lost no ships. He lost JUNYO to a sub attack. The only result was another 150 or so lost Jap planes. The essential problem wasn't luck, it was the 700 Allied fighters based at Darwin.

Attacking Darwin was just a bad idea on his part, and it was salvaged by Greyjoy's good luck in getting those BBs

Anyway, I'm getting tired of hearing about bad luck, when this is the 3rd time I've seen a replay due to sync bugs with very different results favoring Japan

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 5/29/2013 3:19:37 PM >

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RE: Lesson Learned - 5/29/2013 3:20:03 PM   
Nemo121


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quote:

With 500 fighters at Mandalay, until I can get 500 decent fighters in Burma, I have no chance.


Indeed, yet rather than build up that force you repeatedly build 1/3rd or 1/2 of that force, commit it too early, lose it and then repeat the process. As it is, right now, if you'd been more patient once you could have broken the back of Japanese airpower several months ago. Instead you build up a medium-sized force, lose patience, fritter it away meaninglessly and then rinse and repeat the nightmare.

You think you need 500 to match him. Well then, wait till you get 800 to 1,000 and THEN commit to a massive series of sweeps designed to break the back of his airforce. Don't send in bombers, just sweep and keep sweeping. Your biggest mistake will be losing your patience again and sending the bombers in too soon before you've truly broken the back of his fighters.

Ideally you want to destroy 500 of his fighters in 2 to 3 days at a cost of 500 of your own. At the end you'll have 500 left vs 50 or 60 and changed 2:1 odds to 10:1 - at that point you can send the bombers in.

Basically you need to be more patient.


As to Darwin: Greyjoy has a tendency to blame things on luck and not on his strategic misappreciations. You can choose to find that "a bit whiny" or you could choose to view it as a fatal flaw which you could incorporate into your planning in order to draw him into predictable patterns of behaviour and perception which you turn to your strategic advantage. The latter will achieve a lot more than the former.



_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 650
RE: Lesson Learned - 5/29/2013 3:28:49 PM   
Canoerebel


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Q-Ball and GJ are two of my favorite AE players. I read both AARs faithfully, enjoy each, and have a great deal of respect for both players - both their ability and their sportsmanship.

To Brad, I'd just say that your feelings about GJ are colored by a tough few months on the battlefield. GJ wouldn't intentionally whine or suggest "you oughta be losing worse than you are." (I don't think you're losing, do you? I do think GJ is playing a fine game as Japan.) I think you know he's a smart guy who seems to have an impeccable sportsmanship ethos.


(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 651
RE: Lesson Learned - 5/29/2013 8:13:50 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Ouch on the BBs. You were already very short on BBs if I remember right?

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Post #: 652
RE: Lesson Learned - 5/30/2013 3:45:12 AM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Ouch on the BBs. You were already very short on BBs if I remember right?


Oh yeah, it's been very bad on my part. I've lost 3 to sub attacks, plus those 4. I've lost a total of 9 USN BBs. I've been a bad admiral! I've also lost 3 R-Class BBs, but those don't really count, since they would have withdrawn by now anyways.

So, yes, I am really looking forward to the 5 BBs I am about to get (Valiant, Warspite, Renown, plus Iowa/NJ)

11-29-43:

Day two was a mixed bag.

We attacked with our CVs, hoping to catch his not moving very fast, but we were a bit short.

The bad is that we launched a very tepid attach on YAMATO and freinds at Lautem; out of 400 strike planes, only 2 units flew; probably weather, once again. No sweepers either. I lost 120 planes.

The good is that KB lost another 360-ish attacking my CVs. He didn't take them off attack, so whatever decent attack pilots were left after the last slaughter are probably dead. He did wound CL PERTH, which is 50/50 to make it, but 300+ planes is a steep price for that, if they are coming off his CVs.

His CV air is probably now all newly trained guys. Mine are in pretty good shape; the strike pilots are mixed, the fighter pilots are almost all aces, after shooting down close to 800 planes in two days.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 653
RE: Lesson Learned - 5/30/2013 5:53:47 AM   
gmoney

 

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The destruction of the IJN's air arm is probably close to worth the loss of the battleships, if you really got most of his elite pilots.

Have to agree with Nemo on the Burma question. The adage of 'take what you think you need to do the job and multiply it by 2 or 3' has held true time and time again, from my days in the army to my current job of fishing. If you THINK it will take 500 planes to do the job, bring 1000 or 1500 instead.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 654
RE: Lesson Learned - 5/30/2013 8:14:00 PM   
Schlemiel

 

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I would encourage building up your pools for Burma as well. You would benefit greatly from a critical mass in the air, since he's limited by av support available to him. Not waiting for critical mass on offense seems to me to be a slightly less obvious version of early carrier loss for the allies. You're tempted to spend what you have as soon as you get parity, but you're delaying the ability to annihilate bases of your choice. He has to defend in force or loss badly to your sweeps, so you need the iron glove to knock out those strongholds and force him into tough decisions there.

Personally, I think the quality of the Japanese KB pilots is mostly irrelevant at this point in the war. In fact, having better pilots might trigger greater risks on the part of the KB. Sure, killing the best pilots is useful, but he'll have decent backups for sure (even presuming he didn't restaff for such a raid, which is fairly SOP). Is there any way to take advantage of the need of the KB to resupply? Any resources available in the area for a snap invasion of another base in the area? Maybe some things prepped for Timor?

(in reply to gmoney)
Post #: 655
RE: Lesson Learned - 5/31/2013 2:48:52 AM   
Q-Ball


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11-30-43:

KB is withdrawing westward, toward Soerbaya, probably to spend at least a week there replacing lost strike planes. The total lost for Japan over the last few days is over 800, at least half are JUDY or JILLs. Some are LBA, but a good chunk are CV air, but all those units are going to have to be rebuilt.

I had a shot at YAMATO TF at Lautem, but my CVs launched the exact wrong amount; only 100 planes enough to get killed, but not enough to overwhelm the CAP and get some hits. And no sweeps happened either. So, that was an abort. All the surface ships have also withdrawn, which is wise when KB is disarmed.

So, in the meantime I have free reign.

Kai Island:

In the short-term, I have the shipping and troops ready for Kai Island; we are already loaded, and should land in two days, and I expect no opposition from the air or sea at all, with KB gone. There are 8K troops there, but with 2 divisions coming, we should take it pretty quick.

When that falls, Taberfane and Dobo, and the 30,000 IJA troops on that island, will be cut-off. The airbases are already rubble.

This vector of attack, from Darwin, is very limited, so we are going to open a new one, with a larger move. But for now, it will do as I have support of LBA.

Greyjoy is very committed to this area with troops and planes, so the obvious answer is to go elsewhere. At a minimum, it will spread out his resources.

But in the meantime, it's handy to clear-up to the west part of New Guinea

Long-term Plans:

I feel like an advance across island is not advisable without the cool USN amphib toys, like LCI(R)s and AGCs and Amphib HQs and whatnot. These are coming online, so we are planning a move to a Pacific Island group to be revealed later. Troops are starting to prep, but we are 90 days at least from a real move.

We are also planning for two moves out of the Indian Ocean, closer to the oil. I don't plan to advance from there unless he is real tardy, but I want to threaten the oil and force him to plant massive CAP and troops there. That alone will help.

My advance so far has been too narrow, which is a strategic mistake on my part, but a minor one; after all, I needed LBA at this stage while my CVs built up. I have made a ton of TACTICAL mistakes, but that's different.

Hollandia:

Another attack came off at 1-1 and dropped forts to ZERO. Another attack should do it. Just to be sure, I'll spend a couple days swapping out a tired Kiwi Bde for a rested Marine Regt. That should be plenty.

The troops for Sarmi are ready to go.

I can't afford, of course, to slog 1 base at a time like this in terms of time. So that's good on Greyjoy's part. But how many 30,000 garrisons can he make? The 35,000 men at Vanimo are hopelessly cut off, and only flying boats can get out foot units. Hollandia has 35,000 defenders, who are about to lose and be forced into the jungle. Sarmi has 25,000. There are 25,000 at Rabaul, plus at least 10,000 still in the lower Solomons, despite massive airlifts by him. Samlauki has 20,000 men stuck, and Taberfane/Dobo has 30,000 that can only be flown out.

Part of my strategy has been to bypass some of these garrisons; even lifting stuff by Emily, you can't get out the artillery pieces, which turns troops into Nav Gd. After I took Torokina, Greyjoy kept attacking with the 20,000 men at Shortlands until they evaporated, just to destroy the parent units and rebuild elsewhere. That's fine by me, but part of the strategy I guess.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 656
RE: Lesson Learned - 5/31/2013 7:00:13 PM   
Q-Ball


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12-1-43

Boela Night Action:

With KB not around, we can start being alot more aggressive.

First, I sent 3 Fletcher TFs to Boela, where Greyjoy had a TF of DDs parked. We sank 3-4 of them, without significant damage, in a night action. The first couple rounds were draws, but the last TF really pounded the DDs, which is usually how those things go with surface actions. That's why I sent 3 TFs.

In the morning, still 300 fighters at Boela....I planned a bombardment to clear them out for a couple days hence

Turkey Shoot Part Dieu:

I didn't expect Greyjoy to contest my landings at Kai Island; with KB not around, I could use the full force of my CVs to cover a landing, plus the fighters at Molu. I really didn't expect him to try, with that airpower. In fact, when I sent the turn, I said "Next turn....I really hope you contest the landing at Kai Island"

But he did.........to my surprise.

I had alot of CAP up over Kai Island; I have only seen a replay, but it appears he sank an xAP, and put a torpedo hit on AUSTRALIA, but other than that it was a slaughter; something like 500 more IJN/IJA aircraft shot down. That makes nearly 1500 over the last 4 days. I've lost maybe 150 in that span, and 100 of those were on a sloppy attack on YAMATO.

He did score 3 500kg hits apiece on SOUTH DAKOTA and MASSACHUSETTS; they were gearing up for a run at Boela, and for some reason part of the CAP didn't show. Not sure what the damage is, if they need to go to the yard, but they won't sink for sure; no fires at all.

But that's it. I should have plenty at Kai Island to take it quickly.

Hollandia:

Hollandia also fell, with 5000 Japs dying, and the remaining 30,000 or so retreating to Vanimo, which already had 35,000 defenders. That wasn't very helpful for Greyjoy; now Vanimo is massively overstacked, with a bunch of disabled units and probably few supplies. His flying boats will be busy lifting troops out of there, just to releive the mess. I wish I could do something about that; but I have LRCAPed bases over and over, and rarely do I intercept flying boats. Almost never.

Babo:

We also dropped a para unit on an empty Babo; a transport TF with engineers is on the way. It's a risky move, but with KB gone, now is the time to do it. If I can stack it with engineers and supplies, that will be a real thorn in his side.

We are now going to shut down Boela, and that will open a path to the north of Ambon.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 657
RE: Lesson Learned - 5/31/2013 7:53:44 PM   
obvert


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quote:

Hollandia:

Hollandia also fell, with 5000 Japs dying, and the remaining 30,000 or so retreating to Vanimo, which already had 35,000 defenders. That wasn't very helpful for Greyjoy; now Vanimo is massively overstacked, with a bunch of disabled units and probably few supplies. His flying boats will be busy lifting troops out of there, just to releive the mess. I wish I could do something about that; but I have LRCAPed bases over and over, and rarely do I intercept flying boats. Almost never.


If you're close enough you should do it. My opponent was bemoaning the same thing a while back, but he was getting to a number of them. Just not ALL of them.

If you're over 5 hexes away forget it. The closer you are after that the better.


_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 658
RE: Lesson Learned - 5/31/2013 11:44:35 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
...I have LRCAPed bases over and over, and rarely do I intercept flying boats. ...


If you're over 5 hexes away forget it. The closer you are after that the better.


That's the key ... distance ... 3 hexes and under has high intercepts. Above that it falls off sharply.

_____________________________

Pax

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Post #: 659
RE: Lesson Learned - 6/1/2013 7:03:52 PM   
crsutton


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Well, you have made your share of tactical mistakes but your strategic plan is sound and working well. The loss of 4 BBs was not small but his loss of aircraft opened a lot of doors for you. I am enjoying both AARs and consider this a very good game.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 660
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