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RE: Blizzard 1941

 
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RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/12/2012 3:05:55 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

One area you might look to pull more troops from is far north from Leningrad front. You should not care if the Finns decide to launch an attack and you can certainly use the troops elsewhere for the first part of the winter offensive.


I wouldn't abandon the Volkhov forts you have, but would instead try to place some brigades in the forts behind (not on the river) the Volkhov line so you can reinforce the Pskov axis with divisions. Also, I would rail two or three of the cavalry corps you have in the Kharkov sector to menace Pskov. He looks really weak there, and if they can get in the open you can get to the Pskov-Leningrad railway in a single week from where you're at.
Make him react to you.

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Post #: 181
RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/13/2012 2:34:27 AM   
Fishbed


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Hum not sure threatening Pskov is of any interest considering Finland is a supply source if I am not mistaken, right?

You'll just make a new bulge that will be easily crushed comes Spring. I'd rather trade a Pskov offensive for steady but balanced progress everywhere else if I were him!

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Post #: 182
RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/13/2012 2:40:00 AM   
Klydon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Hum not sure threatening Pskov is of any interest considering Finland is a supply source if I am not mistaken, right?

You'll just make a new bulge that will be easily crushed comes Spring. I'd rather trade a Pskov offensive for steady but balanced progress everywhere else if I were him!


Finland may or may not be hooked into the supply grid overland. It likely isn't at this point unless Scar ran the rail repair unit up there.

The point is to threaten the German rail communications line to Leningrad. It takes modest troops to pull off and makes the Germans either react to it or threated to have their overland rail communications to Leningrad cut because the lines through the Baltic are typically not fixed, especially at this point.
Part of what the Russians seek is to cause damage to the German army. That is hard to do if the Germans decide to run like they normally do. Pskov is a spot where the Germans would more likely make a stand because of what is at stake.

The Russians can easily discontinue their offensive in this area and pull back by Lake Ilmen.

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Post #: 183
RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/13/2012 6:15:17 PM   
IdahoNYer


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Some good points guys. Bottom line I think is to put pressure on the Germans - and Klydon is right, there is little depth here for the Germans to withdraw and avoid loss. However, retaking or cutting supply/rail from Germany is probably beyond the scope of the Soviet Offensive, unless I pull considerable force out of the Voronezh Bulge attack, which is something I'm not going to do.

However, I just might put some of those replacement rifle divisions to hold a quiet part of the line by the Finns to free up some additional forces for the NW Front to add some pressure near Pskov.

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Post #: 184
RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/14/2012 2:05:44 PM   
bigbaba


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scar seems to be a rookie when it comes to blizzard tactics as german.

instead of trying to hold everything ans ruin his units moral while boosting russian units moral he should give up some land. with a intact and high moral army he can recapture all this land in 1942 without any problem.

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Post #: 185
RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/14/2012 5:11:44 PM   
Klydon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

scar seems to be a rookie when it comes to blizzard tactics as german.

instead of trying to hold everything ans ruin his units moral while boosting russian units moral he should give up some land. with a intact and high moral army he can recapture all this land in 1942 without any problem.


This is a "role reversal" game. Idaho has played a lot as the German and Scar has played a lot as the Russian. They decided to switch for this game, so it has been interesting to watch both players adapt to a position they don't necessarily have a lot of experience with.

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Post #: 186
RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/14/2012 5:46:49 PM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba
scar seems to be a rookie when it comes to blizzard tactics as german.

instead of trying to hold everything ans ruin his units moral while boosting russian units moral he should give up some land. with a intact and high moral army he can recapture all this land in 1942 without any problem.


This is a "role reversal" game. Idaho has played a lot as the German and Scar has played a lot as the Russian. They decided to switch for this game, so it has been interesting to watch both players adapt to a position they don't necessarily have a lot of experience with.


Indeed, in that both Scar-IdahoNYer AARs are very different games than most of the rest. When I read their reports I feel they play it out much more along the same lines, with many of the same uncertainties and caution, if they be the first to face the big war and had little hindsight or knowledge of what it once was. This gives very different feel from games, where advances and advantages are maximized using any rule or mechanic implemented, whether designed for such purpose by the devs or not.

Scar and IdahoNYer seem to play more for fun and a good experience than for winning at all costs. Much more enjoyable to follow, and bearing much more relevance to the conflict this game set out to recreate!

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Post #: 187
RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/18/2012 4:19:52 AM   
IdahoNYer


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quote:

This gives very different feel from games, where advances and advantages are maximized using any rule or mechanic implemented, whether designed for such purpose by the devs or not.

Scar and IdahoNYer seem to play more for fun and a good experience than for winning at all costs. Much more enjoyable to follow, and bearing much more relevance to the conflict this game set out to recreate!


Thanks Janh - I think you're right on the money! Yeah, we've been playing each other in different PBEMs for a long, long time. Can't speak for Scar, but no matter what wargame I'm playing, I try to play as realistically/historically as I can - never try to squeeze something out of the rules. And try to avoid players who do that as well....

Heck, I'm a history major and retired military...its in the blood....

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Post #: 188
RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/18/2012 4:39:32 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Turn 28; Dec 25, 1941......Blizzard

Industry moved: I have no idea.....forgot to note it and its been a while!

Attacks - 64 out of 73 attacks were successful.

Quick update - more of the same - Soviets continue to press the Germans across pretty much the entire front. German resistance thickens near Kharkov, but seems to break loose a bit on the north side of the Voronezh Bulge.

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Post #: 189
RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/18/2012 4:52:34 AM   
bigbaba


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high attack number. not good for the german player because it produces a lot of guards units. i tested a "sir robin" blizzard defense in my last game and the result was that my opponent got only one!!! guards unit untill spring 42.

it's like pelton said:

with a low moral russian army and a intact german army one can regain the lost territory easily in 42 and overrun the manpower centers in russia twice what will cause even more damage to them.

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Post #: 190
RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/18/2012 7:15:02 AM   
Speedy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba
it's like pelton said:

with a low moral russian army and a intact german army one can regain the lost territory easily in 42 and overrun the manpower centers in russia twice what will cause even more damage to them.


I agree. I'm beginning to think this ultimately need to be looked at as once the standard Axis response to first Blizzard is to Sir Robin and then 'guarantee' victory in 42 with little that the SU can do (especially the potential gamey absuse of giving up large Manpower Centres knowing when they're recaptured it will detriment the SU further) it will make the game a null and pointless endeavour for any SU player.

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Post #: 191
RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/18/2012 10:10:45 AM   
Rodimstev

 

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Hi IdahoNyer,

thanks for this report.

i just want if it is not more usefull too concentrate our forces in center ou in the south ? in history, one of the reason of failure about the soviet winter counter attack was that this counter attack has been

too general.

in severals AAR, we show just this a general push toward the west. do is not another solutions?
kinds regards
Rodimstev

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Post #: 192
RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/18/2012 10:12:39 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IdahoNYer
Heck, I'm a history major and retired military...its in the blood....


I did indeed get that impression from your first AAR. I can understand your and Scar's motivation for playing in your style well. After all we are interested in that conflict and period, and if you don't play a little along the doctrines or manner that shaped that history, it just detracts. Up to the point where you ply scify on a Russian map.

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Post #: 193
RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/18/2012 10:23:39 AM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy
I agree. I'm beginning to think this ultimately need to be looked at as once the standard Axis response to first Blizzard is to Sir Robin and then 'guarantee' victory in 42 with little that the SU can do (especially the potential gamey absuse of giving up large Manpower Centres knowing when they're recaptured it will detriment the SU further) it will make the game a null and pointless endeavour for any SU player.


Probably the wrong place to discuss this, but you are probably right that this might be the most useful German counter to blizzard, and to hurt SHC twice. It is hard to blame Axis of this though, because also as a Soviet you are forced to choose wisely when to stand and fight (around Pskov to Leningrad, in the Valdai, the land-bridge, or whereever the situation favors defense, or renders withdrawals no option). Same as is quite futile to try to hold of AGS after Lvov wiped out the majority of means to do so, it is probably not wise as Axis to try to hold anything south of roughly the Bryansk-Tula line, in the open. With the pronounced swings of initiative and attackers advantages, it is quite logic that retreats are wise.

The trouble is only that there is no response to that as SHC. If fort building were not nerved in the patches, you could at least reduce for offensive work to a min and set up consecutive lines of level 3 and 4 forts instead. That is not making guards for heading towards Berlin or make for interesting battles, but at least would offer some chance to hold tight.

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Post #: 194
RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/18/2012 10:53:34 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba
it's like pelton said:

with a low moral russian army and a intact german army one can regain the lost territory easily in 42 and overrun the manpower centers in russia twice what will cause even more damage to them.


I agree. I'm beginning to think this ultimately need to be looked at as once the standard Axis response to first Blizzard is to Sir Robin and then 'guarantee' victory in 42 with little that the SU can do (especially the potential gamey absuse of giving up large Manpower Centres knowing when they're recaptured it will detriment the SU further) it will make the game a null and pointless endeavour for any SU player.


The "fix" would be to make city's worth something so both sides would fight over them. This would mean SHC manpower #s would have to be increased.

Right now the game is all about ball room dancing. Summer 41 SHC runs east, 41/42 winter GHC runs west and then as SHC figures out 42(few have) 42 SHC runs east. 1943 static and finally 1944-1945 both sides fight tooth and nail for land.

The game has gotten better and better as WitP has over the yrs. WitP was a mess for yrs before it is what it is now.

The wite game system is right, it just needs a few minor tweets and it would have the perfect feel we are all looking for.

I think its been clear now for 18 months what is needed, but for some reason 2by3 will not do it or can't code it.

1. A turn by turn VP system.
2. Tweek manpower output of SHC so it can take higher losses fighting forward.
3. Nerf the insane cav blizzard BS. Cav units are horses or lt tanks, not both as 2by3 has stated in past.

It is simply 100% not possible to lose less then 30 german divisions vs someone that knows how to exploit the current cav ruleset and this is 100% not historical. I lost 10 divisions running 2 hexes a turn vs Bobo and his losses were 3.5 million during 41. Its just not possible as GHC to fight forward during blizzard as it is 100% not possible to fight forward during 41 summer as SHC vs an average GHC player.

The player base is not stupid. We will not fight forward if the other side has an unhistorical unfar advantage.

41- 70
42- 60
43- 50
44- 45
45- 40

Something allong those lines would gave game less of a feel of ball room dancing and more like a cage death match.

They will get it right at some point.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 9/18/2012 11:01:18 AM >


_____________________________

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15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

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Post #: 195
RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/19/2012 6:07:15 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Janh/Pelton -

I agree "something" needs to be done with the 41 campaign in the grand campaign to prevent both players doing a Sir Robin. Funny thing - the 41 scenario, with VPs for cities, doesn't seem to have that issue.....

Perhaps a simple solution is to leave the VPs in for 1941 - if a minimum isn't achieved by 1 Feb 42, by either side, its game over - you lost!

Both sides need some incentive to FIGHT in 1941. Too much incentive exists for running....

And now back to the PBEM AAR....

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Post #: 196
RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/19/2012 6:14:43 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Turn 29; Jan 1, 1942.........Blizzard.

Industry moved: Rostov 15xArms.

Attacks for the turn:48 out of 57 attacks were successful.

Before I get into some detail on those attacks, a look at the info as we move into Jan 42.

The industry screen shot shows that a Soviet offensive is taking place! For the first time, a number of industrial areas have increased! Notably population - a number of key cities have been liberated - Orel, Bryansk, and Veliki Luki. A number of others, such as Smolensk, Gomel and Kharkov are threatened....




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RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/19/2012 6:16:40 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Forces available screen shot shows some great news for the Soviets - Germans have taken a big hit in manpower and guns, while the Soviets (although are taking some heavy losses), are still increasing in size. The lack of Soviet tank expansion can be attributed to some heavy tank losses during some failed attacks.




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RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/19/2012 6:19:26 AM   
IdahoNYer


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For losses - pretty much as expected. Heavy German losses, although many are in a disabled state. Biggest change from the Soviet standpoint is the vast reduction in Soviets taken prisoner!




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RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/19/2012 6:21:26 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Lastly, prior to the front line screens, is the destroyed units.....nice.....

Not a SINGLE Soviet maneuver unit was destroyed in the month.
Of course, we haven't destroyed any of the German ones either.....




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Post #: 200
RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/19/2012 7:27:42 AM   
Speedy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba
it's like pelton said:

with a low moral russian army and a intact german army one can regain the lost territory easily in 42 and overrun the manpower centers in russia twice what will cause even more damage to them.


I agree. I'm beginning to think this ultimately need to be looked at as once the standard Axis response to first Blizzard is to Sir Robin and then 'guarantee' victory in 42 with little that the SU can do (especially the potential gamey absuse of giving up large Manpower Centres knowing when they're recaptured it will detriment the SU further) it will make the game a null and pointless endeavour for any SU player.


The "fix" would be to make city's worth something so both sides would fight over them. This would mean SHC manpower #s would have to be increased.

Right now the game is all about ball room dancing. Summer 41 SHC runs east, 41/42 winter GHC runs west and then as SHC figures out 42(few have) 42 SHC runs east. 1943 static and finally 1944-1945 both sides fight tooth and nail for land.

The game has gotten better and better as WitP has over the yrs. WitP was a mess for yrs before it is what it is now.

The wite game system is right, it just needs a few minor tweets and it would have the perfect feel we are all looking for.

I think its been clear now for 18 months what is needed, but for some reason 2by3 will not do it or can't code it.

1. A turn by turn VP system.
2. Tweek manpower output of SHC so it can take higher losses fighting forward.
3. Nerf the insane cav blizzard BS. Cav units are horses or lt tanks, not both as 2by3 has stated in past.

It is simply 100% not possible to lose less then 30 german divisions vs someone that knows how to exploit the current cav ruleset and this is 100% not historical. I lost 10 divisions running 2 hexes a turn vs Bobo and his losses were 3.5 million during 41. Its just not possible as GHC to fight forward during blizzard as it is 100% not possible to fight forward during 41 summer as SHC vs an average GHC player.

The player base is not stupid. We will not fight forward if the other side has an unhistorical unfar advantage.

41- 70
42- 60
43- 50
44- 45
45- 40

Something allong those lines would gave game less of a feel of ball room dancing and more like a cage death match.

They will get it right at some point.


Before I jeopardise this AAR I just wanted to say I agree with your overall sentiments here Pelton. I do think in an ideal world something should be done to strongly discourage Sir Robins whilst allowing a side the ability to conduct a strategic withdrawal if prudent.

Idaho - How many Guards Units have you got so far?

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Post #: 201
RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/19/2012 7:25:17 PM   
bednarre

 

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If the Russian attack capability was more accurately modeled, the UBER-encirclements and mass German retreats would be significantly curtailed. The UBER-blizzard modifiers could be reduced and for once the German side would have to worry about setback before winter 1942. Consider this, if 18 Russian brigades surrounded a German divison attack CV of 4 in a level 1 fort, the basic odds are only about 2:1. If the superior German leadership is factored in, the Russian attack would have a very small change of success. Does this seem historical?

Also, for 2 years now there has been a digital seesaw war of varying fortification efficiency, supply efficiency (remember the Moscow UNTER-supply rule), manpower modifier, and of course, AP costs. Despite this, with the trend generally being to increase the power of the Wehrmacht, the basic scheme is still Germans vs Russian ants, Russians vs German ants, etc. There is little JOINT ATTACKING in a turn. Do you thing the recent ARs with experienced Russian players perfoming great strategies would do so much worst than Stalin did? Were there no non-blizzard, successfull Russian attacks before Stalingrad? Why could the Russian Army retreat successfully in 1942 in real life? It seems WITE models Russian capability according to Hitler's assumptions (kick the front door in and the whole structure will come crashing down). Too bad one can't stack 6 brigades to a hex.

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RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/19/2012 7:33:51 PM   
IdahoNYer


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quote:

Idaho - How many Guards Units have you got so far?


Speedy - I have a grand total of ONE Guards Rifle Division, although I have a number of support units that have flipped to Guard status.

Screen shot shows my top "winners" of division sized units. Looks like I've got a number ready to pop.......




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RE: Blizzard 1941 - 9/19/2012 9:22:33 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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We can perfectly extrapolate methinks

I had started the Blizzard Massacres with a single miserable Guards Rifle Division. I was doing around 70 attacks per turn (like you did in one of the blizzard turns you mention). Ergo you should easily be getting minimum 50 Guards Rifle Divisions (that's what I got)

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Post #: 204
RE: Blizzard Jan 1941 Operation Klydon - 9/20/2012 12:21:04 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Long encouraged to strike out toward Pskov, NW Front finally launches "Operation Klydon" after being slightly reinforced from Leningrad Front. Its objective is taking Pskov in order to disrupt Armee Group North operations and draw forces from the already hard pressed Armee Group Center.

The Germans looked to establish an economy of force line here, and Rifle Divisions opened a hole for a tank division and tank brigade to exploit. The Soviet tankers advance much farther than I originally hoped, while not taking Pskov, manage to cut all rail lines moving through the city.

I figure this attack, if nothing else, will draw additional German forces as qiuckly as bugs move toward a light. That will probably doom the lead tankers, but this attack has served its purpose tenfold already. If the Germans don't react quickly enough, I'll activate 8th Army and reinforce success.




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< Message edited by IdahoNYer -- 9/20/2012 1:48:47 AM >

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RE: Blizzard Jan 1941 - 9/20/2012 2:03:10 AM   
IdahoNYer


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Kalinin Front continues to push for the prize of Smolensk. Orginally just a holding attack to draw forces away from the Bryansk and Volkov Front's attack, momentum of the initial attacks put the Front in position to actually take the city of Smolensk...

North of Kalinin Front, 40th Army was activated and sent to protect the expanding flank between Northwestern and Kalinin Front. Most of the units are ill trained for offensive operations, but even so, the army has managed to push the Germans slightly back.

Kalinin Front's three armies continue to push the attack. 22nd Army, pushing the limits of its supply lines, continues to reach for Vitebsk - or more likely over-reaching. Unless the Germans pull back on the armies flanks, 22nd Army will be very exposed.

24th Army fails in a key deliberate attack, and will have to regroup.

20th Army manages to force a breakthrough of some 40 miles - but the gap is only 10 miles wide, and the other two armies failed to really support this kind of offensive exploit. Blizzard or not, I expect the 51st Tank Division to be encircled and destroyed in next turn.

Overall, good progress, but the supply lines are begining to become over-extended and fatigue is rapidly hindering efforts. A snow turn would not be good right about now....




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RE: Blizzard Jan 1941 - 9/20/2012 2:24:28 AM   
IdahoNYer


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On the north side of the Voronezh Bulge, things begin to "shake out".....

On the western most portion, Western Front's 3rd, 4th and 10th Armies meet lightening resistance and manage to push armor and cavalry through gaps. 3rd Army's 104th Tank Division's scouts actually reach the Dneipr! Western Front is focusing all its effort on taking Gomel - thought to be well out of reach a few weeks ago, now....it is reachable.

North of Western Front, 49th Army has transitioned to the defense in order to protect the expanding flanks....we'll need another army here shortly.

54th Army continues to support the attack by protecting Western Front's eastern flank.

Bryansk Front disengages for the turn in order to move more to the west. All its forces attempt to gain replacements, and it will follow behind Western Front/54th Army in order to continue to push the attack southward.

Volkov Front, finally able to really mass its three armies in the attack, pushes through a 30 mile wide gap forced into the German lines NW of Kursk, its primary objective. As STAVKA armies press from the east, German forces NE of Kursk are in real danger of being encircled.....

Overall, the northern side attacks seem to be gaining momentum - we will push as hard as we can, taking the risk of German counter attacks if a snow turn should pop up.




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RE: Blizzard Jan 1941 - 9/20/2012 3:20:25 AM   
Pelton

 

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What turn is it?

Nice job on blizzard operations.

The blizzard is still way way to powerful.

The games now are desided during blizzard as 1941 summer for germans has been nerfed to about what was historical. As SHC realize they dont have to defend the southern front at all Leningrad will not be a given.

With Russian loses being far lower then historical, because there is no need to fight forward on 66% of the map large nad med size pockets are a thing of the past.

This in turn means that SHC blizzards(plus the cav exploit) can all but seal the game by Feb 1942.

Again the skill level of the german player has to be very high or the first winter is a disaster as SHC armys are 5 million plus.

At this point the German player is better served to farm morale for most of the summer then pull back to Poland before winter and then try to win in 42. You will atleast have 80 to 90 morale infantry divisions and 4.5 million men to defend Germany for a draw.

Great job on your blizzard offensive the GHC over all infantry morale will be completely trashed by March and he will have zero offensive punch.

Game should be over by late 44 unless you shot yourself in the foot

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to IdahoNYer)
Post #: 208
RE: Blizzard Jan 1941 - 9/20/2012 4:07:16 AM   
Klydon


Posts: 2158
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline
I believe it is the first part of January.

This appears to be a great turn for the Russians and Scar can't be pleased at all when he got the turn. His lines are crumbling in a lot of places and you can see he has gotten desperate by committing his security regiments in an attempt to plug some holes and that is typically a inexperience mistake. (Hint: attacks on security regiments are usually good for cheap wins. :) ).

I am somewhat surprised you have that many armored divisions left, but you put them to good use for sure. He has some areas in some deep trouble and really needs a snow turn to both blunt your attacks and also to consider trying to get some withdraws in. Either way, it would not surprise me to see him finally running en mass from the Kursk area to the south. He has so many areas crumbling, etc that he is probably trying to figure out what the heck to do to plug the holes.

Have you seen his German mountain divisions by chance? They may be headed to Pskov.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 209
RE: Blizzard Jan 1941 - 9/20/2012 4:19:55 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5930
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: online
2by3 desided that a single snow turn from Dec to Jan made the winter to easy on GHC so there is zero random weather during Dec-Jan.

Random weather is a complete and utter joke, as it is based on nothing.

41/42 was a once every 100 yr event. The "random" weather makes 100% sure that the weather can only be worse( colder and more mud) then was historically a freak event.

IF the weather was based on historical records the weather could only be the same as 41/42 or better( warmer).

Some of that good old Russian bias that needs to be removed from a game that should be based on historical records and not The Lord of The Rings weather records.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 9/20/2012 4:21:44 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 210
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