Matrix Games Forums

To End All Wars: Mountain InfantryPandora: Eclipse of Nashira Announced! Deal of the Week: Command Ops goes half price!New Fronts are opening up for Commander: The Great WarCharacters of World War 1Sign of for the Pike and Shot Beta!More Games are Coming to Steam! Return to the Moon on October 31st! Commander: The Great War iPad Wallpapers Generals of the Great War
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

OT: Never Forget Srebrenica

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> OT: Never Forget Srebrenica Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/11/2012 6:06:31 PM   
Emir Agic


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
On July 11, 1995, the town of Srebrenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina, a United Nations sanctioned safe zone, fell victim to a Serb VRS Force that separated the Bosnian-Muslim men and boys from their families. The soldiers told the families that the men would be considered prisoners of war. After they were out of sight, the army took the men and boys to various towns throughout the area and murdered them. The Bosnian-Serb force, led by General Ratko Mladic, killed over 8,000 Bosnian-Muslims. More than 400 UN peacekeepers were present during the genocide but failed to stop the murders. Thousands of Bosnian civilians fled through the hills and forests to escape death. Some made it to safety and others were captured. The genocide of Srebrenica is considered the largest massacre on European soil since World War II. 2012 marks the 17th anniversary of the genocide and there are still families that do not know where their loved ones are.

Scott McIntyre
Post #: 1
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/11/2012 8:39:09 PM   
carnifex


Posts: 1295
Joined: 7/1/2002
From: Latitude 40° 48' 43N Longtitude 74° 7' 29W
Status: offline
My blood boils when I think of that spineless useless UN force that was supposed to protect them.

(in reply to Emir Agic)
Post #: 2
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/11/2012 8:59:10 PM   
LarryP


Posts: 3220
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Carson City, NV
Status: offline
The United Nations is still spineless and worthless.

(in reply to Emir Agic)
Post #: 3
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/11/2012 9:41:41 PM   
Josh

 

Posts: 2255
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
Status: offline
Well this is gonna be political before you know it, let me just say that it were the politicians who sent the soldiers without heavy equipment, airsupport or artillery support to this region. The reason they did this was that Russia backed up the Serbs, so it was supposed to be a "peace keeper" force (what does that mean anyway?) without any means to stop the mass killing that followed.
More or less the same is happening now in Syria, the UN is powerless because certain countries, namely Russia and China, want their influence preserved.
What can I say, it's politics and it's war and it's dirty. 

(in reply to LarryP)
Post #: 4
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/11/2012 10:04:56 PM   
sabre1


Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

The United Nations is still spineless and worthless.



Larry, aren't you being a little harsh on "spineless and worthless."

_____________________________

Combat Command Matrix Edition Company, The Forgotten Few

(in reply to LarryP)
Post #: 5
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/12/2012 12:03:01 AM   
Emir Agic


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Josh

Well this is gonna be political before you know it, let me just say that it were the politicians who sent the soldiers without heavy equipment, airsupport or artillery support to this region. The reason they did this was that Russia backed up the Serbs, so it was supposed to be a "peace keeper" force (what does that mean anyway?) without any means to stop the mass killing that followed.
More or less the same is happening now in Syria, the UN is powerless because certain countries, namely Russia and China, want their influence preserved.
What can I say, it's politics and it's war and it's dirty. 


You can't compare what happened in Srebrenica and what is happening in Syria today for couple of reasons:

First, Srebrenica was designated as UN safe area by resolution 819 passed in United Nations Security Council. Russia and China voted for that resolution. There is no such resolution in case of Syria. Second, UN in Srebrenica had forces (Dutchbat) on the ground with mandate given by United Nations Security Council to protect that "safe area". Third, Russia in 1995 hardly could help Serbs even if they wanted. At the time, they weren't able to deal with Chechnya in their own backyard.

So there is a lot of truth about "spineless and worthless" UN forces. UN's bureaucracy negatively affected the outcome of their own mission to protect the Srebrenica. I have attached excerpt from CIA study about what happened on 11th july when VRS overruned Srebrenica. There you can see how ineffective and bureaucratic UN chain of command was at that critical day.

Also, we can discuss about behavior of Dutch peacekeepers two days later when they began expelling the refugees from their base, handing them to Bosnian Serb troops into certain death.



Attachment (1)

(in reply to Josh)
Post #: 6
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/12/2012 1:12:49 AM   
apathetic lurker

 

Posts: 1342
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sabre1


quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

The United Nations is still spineless and worthless.



Larry, aren't you being a little harsh on "spineless and worthless."


No he is not....He's actually being nice...I have other words that are more appropriate for the UN but I don't want to be permabanned.....

_____________________________

My life is complete. 1000 Matrix posts.....

(in reply to sabre1)
Post #: 7
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/12/2012 1:44:11 AM   
Bamilus


Posts: 265
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline
Name me a war the United Nations has stopped or prevented on its own.

Don't worry, I'll wait.

_____________________________

Paradox Interactive Forum Refugee

(in reply to apathetic lurker)
Post #: 8
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/12/2012 2:03:41 AM   
radic202


Posts: 341
Joined: 6/7/2012
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

Rwanda, Golan Heights, Cyprus, the Suez Canal..............err wait my bad..................He may be right?

At least NATO did intervene in Kosovo?

I would like to add that there has been many UN Projects Militarily wise where they did help out a ton but more in a Humanitarian way than a Militarist way Haiti after the Earthquake is one of them I can think of right now). Heck My Dad served and Commanded many Canadian UN Missions where he talked about the good things the "casques blues" where doing.................and of course the failures or the hands tied that prevented them from doing things e.i: Rwanda's killing of Belgium soldiers where the Canadians were not even allowed to fire back to protect them...........

_____________________________

It is much harder to think about doing something than actually doing it!

(in reply to Bamilus)
Post #: 9
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/14/2012 1:36:14 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 3584
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Name me a war the United Nations has stopped or prevented on its own ...


Wasn't the Korean Conflict renamed as a war?


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Bamilus)
Post #: 10
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/14/2012 1:51:11 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 3584
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

So there is a lot of truth about "spineless and worthless" UN forces. UN's bureaucracy negatively affected the outcome of their own mission to protect the Srebrenica ...


There was a "dual key" system set-up between the UN in NY and the peacekeepers on the ground that proved to be a dual lock; when the Dutch finally requested air support against advancing Serbs, the denial from NY noted that their request was sent on the wrong form (!), and when air support was finally approved, practice bombs were dropped!

The Dutch peacekeepers were so few in number that they more of a trip-wire than a deterrent to aggression.

Having spent 6 months peacekeeping in Bosnia during SFOR7, I know something about the history there, but for the record, peacekeeping works best when there actually IS a peace to keep.

Also, we were under NATO and had an entire helicopter gunship brigade to back us up.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Emir Agic)
Post #: 11
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/15/2012 12:23:59 AM   
Emir Agic


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

There was a "dual key" system set-up between the UN in NY and the peacekeepers on the ground that proved to be a dual lock; when the Dutch finally requested air support against advancing Serbs, the denial from NY noted that their request was sent on the wrong form (!), and when air support was finally approved, practice bombs were dropped!


That's what I wrote. UN's bureaucracy negatively affected the outcome of their own mission. In my previous post I attached detailed analysis about how UN screwed up things with "dual keys" on critical day.

quote:

The Dutch peacekeepers were so few in number that they more of a trip-wire than a deterrent to aggression.


Are you sure about this?

UN Duchbat had: 310 men, 30 YPR-765 APC, six TOW AT missles and six 81mm mortars. Also they relied on air support (about 50 NATO planes of all types). The Serb forces allotted to the operation totaled about 3,000 troops with about 10 tanks and APCs, six to 12 field artillery pieces or multiple rocket launchers over 100 mm, 40 to 50 mortars, recoilless rifles, and 76 mm artillery pieces.

Don't forget that Duchbat wasn't alone. There was defending 28 ARBiH Inf. Div. which had about 6.000 men but armed only with rifles, few RPGs and one artillery piece: 76mm M-48B1 "mountain gun" with 40 rounds. For people who are less familiar with Bosnian conflict I need to emphasize that the main reason for such bad logistical situation on side of defenders was again UN - who imposed an arms embargo on both sides. But the embargo practically hurted the Army of BiH (defenders) the most because the Serbs inherited the lion's share of the Yugoslav People Army's arsenal.

(All above data and figures are from CIA study: Balkan Battlegrounds - A Military History of the Yugoslav Conflict, 1990-1995, Vol. I, Washington, 2002).

So, in short:

1. UN imposed embargo which denied arms to defenders to defend themselves;
2. UN, before Srebrenica, watched 3,5 years of ethnic cleansing, concentration camps, rapes, mass murders... doing nothing to show determination to stop that;
3. UN proclaimed safe zones and promised to protect civilians inside, even with force;
4. UN watched how Serbs attack safe zone and their own forces inside zone for straight five days doing nothing;
5. When they decided to do something they advised defenders to pull back from last line of defense as they promised "NATO air armada to create zone of death obliterating all Serbs heavy weapons in the area" (later only two airplanes showed up).
6. Finally, when Serbs took over Srebrenica, "brave" UN Dutchbat soldiers began expelling the refugees from their base straight into hand of their executors.

Because all of this we have every right to call them "spineless and worthless" UN forces.

quote:

Having spent 6 months peacekeeping in Bosnia during SFOR7, I know something about the history there, but for the record, peacekeeping works best when there actually IS a peace to keep.


First, there was a huge difference between UNPROFOR and SFOR. Second, Bosnians in '92-'95 period never asked so much for inefficient peacekeepers. We primarily asked for lifting of unjust arms embargo to defend ourselves but we were denied.


< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 7/15/2012 12:27:04 AM >

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 12
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/15/2012 11:57:24 AM   
Joe D.


Posts: 3584
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Don't forget that Duchbat wasn't alone. There was defending 28 ARBiH Inf. Div. which had about 6.000 men ...


... and who, along with the political leaders of Sreb, all decided to leave town after Sarajevo arranged for Bosnian paramilitary commander -- and former Milosevic bodyguard -- Naser Oric to be airlifted out by helo for fear he would fall into the hands of the advancing Serbs. If captured, Oric and his men were sure to be tried for war crimes against local Serb civilians in what the UN declared a "safe haven," which in reality wasn't safe for anyone.

The few hundred Dutch peacekeepers left behind in Sreb were abandoned by both the UN and the Bosnian soldiers; some Dutch soldiers were filmed by their Serb captors chained to poles and other structures as human shields against UN air strikes.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Emir Agic)
Post #: 13
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/15/2012 3:51:15 PM   
Emir Agic


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
double post

< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 7/15/2012 4:03:34 PM >

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 14
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/15/2012 4:00:08 PM   
Emir Agic


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Don't forget that Duchbat wasn't alone. There was defending 28 ARBiH Inf. Div. which had about 6.000 men ...


... and who, along with the political leaders of Sreb, all decided to leave town after Sarajevo arranged for Bosnian paramilitary commander -- and former Milosevic bodyguard -- Naser Oric to be airlifted out by helo for fear he would fall into the hands of the advancing Serbs.


This would be in a same ballpark as if I said that 9-11 was organized by CIA and NSA. Please, refer to one serious historian who would back up your claim about territorial "arrangement" with Serbs. This is in domain of conspiracy theory, at best. Also, Oric was airlifted two months before any indications about Serbs plan to overrun safe zone. He was evacuated by helicopter which was latter destroyed by Serbs while trying to bring supplies to defenders.

quote:

If captured, Oric and his men were sure to be tried for war crimes against local Serb civilians in what the UN declared a "safe haven," which in reality wasn't safe for anyone.


Again, it seems that you have very shallow knowledge about what happened in '95. Oric was on trial for war crimes and sentenced to (only) two years in prison. He was acquitted of direct involvement in the murder of prisoners and basically was sentenced for not trying to punish some of his men for doing cruelties against captured Serb soldiers. Judges found many mitigating circumstances for Oric. He was young elected commander of a poorly trained volunteer force that lacked effective links with government in Sarajevo. Also siege caused critical shortage of food which lead to the breakdown of law and order in Srebrenica.

From Wikipedia: ...Dutchbat personnel on the ground at the time assessed that the few "raids" the Bosniaks mounted out of Srebrenica were of little or no military significance. These raids were often organised in order to gather food, as the Serbs had refused access for humanitarian convoys into the enclave. Even Serb sources approached in the context of this report acknowledged that the Bosniak forces in Srebrenica posed no significant military threat to them (Source: "Report of the Secretary-General pursuant to General Assembly resolution 53/35—The Fall of Srebrenica" paragraph 479).

quote:

The few hundred Dutch peacekeepers left behind in Sreb were abandoned by both the UN and the Bosnian soldiers; some Dutch soldiers were filmed by their Serb captors chained to poles and other structures as human shields against UN air strikes.


I don't know how to comment this twisting of facts. Untrained and only lightly armed Bosnian soldiers abandoned "poor" Dutch soldiers (most of them from 13th Airmobile Infantry battalion and supported with with NATO CAS?! Give me a break. And yes, UN soldiers were chained to poles, but that happened on other occasions and on other place(s). Anyway, why they found themselves in situation to be chained? Because, for almost 4 years, Serbs make fun of them in every situation and it seemed UN didn't have problem with that.

Joe, I thought you have far better understanding of situation here.


< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 7/15/2012 4:01:31 PM >

(in reply to Emir Agic)
Post #: 15
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/15/2012 6:30:11 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 3584
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

... Joe, I thought you have far better understanding of situation here.



I know more about what happened in and around Sreb than you care to admit; before my Bosnian rotation, I particpated in Co-Operative Best Effort where I had the opportunity to talk with Canadian and Dutch peacekeepers.

And here's a dated, but relevant story about Oric:

"SARAJEVO, Bosnia-Herzegovina (AP) NATO-led peacekeepers in Bosnia have arrested Naser Oric, a Bosnian Muslim wanted by the U.N. war crimes tribunal in The Hague ...

"Oric was the wartime commander of the Bosnian army in the Srebrenica enclave, besieged by Serb forces for almost three years before they overran.

"Serbs blame Oric and his forces for killing during those raids about 2,000 Serb civilians from villages around Srebrenica, including in the so-called Bloody Christmas massacre of January 1993 when dozens of women and children died in the village of Kravice.

"Oric is considered a hero by Bosnian Muslims for his defense of Srebrenica."

I suspect that even after all this time you still believe that Oric and his men are heroes, but note that this story was written by The Associated Press, not Wikipedia.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/891278/posts

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Emir Agic)
Post #: 16
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/15/2012 7:31:32 PM   
Emir Agic


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

I know more about what happened in and around Sreb than you care to admit; before my Bosnian rotation, I particpated in Co-Operative Best Effort where I had the opportunity to talk with Canadian and Dutch peacekeepers.

And here's a dated, but relevant story about Oric:

"SARAJEVO, Bosnia-Herzegovina (AP) NATO-led peacekeepers in Bosnia have arrested Naser Oric, a Bosnian Muslim wanted by the U.N. war crimes tribunal in The Hague ...

"Oric was the wartime commander of the Bosnian army in the Srebrenica enclave, besieged by Serb forces for almost three years before they overran.

"Serbs blame Oric and his forces for killing during those raids about 2,000 Serb civilians from villages around Srebrenica, including in the so-called Bloody Christmas massacre of January 1993 when dozens of women and children died in the village of Kravice.

"Oric is considered a hero by Bosnian Muslims for his defense of Srebrenica."

I suspect that even after all this time you still believe that Oric and his men are heroes, but note that this story was written by The Associated Press, not Wikipedia.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/891278/posts



What is striking that after 17 years you believe to Serbs propaganda but you don't believe what is determined in International Court Tribunal? Just great. BTW, what I have cited is from Wikipedia but that text itself contain reference to over 300 sources most of which are ICTY Court Records.

Tehn, obviously, you are not able to interpret simple news information from AP. They just quoted what Serbs said and that doesn't mean automatically to be truth. That's way there is international court and that's why that figure about 2.000 civilians was ruled out as propaganda. What court determined is:

"For example the village of Kravica was attacked by Bosniak forces on Orthodox Christmas Day, 7 January 1993. Some Serb sources such as Ivanisevic allege that the village's 353 inhabitants were "virtually completely destroyed".[271] In fact, the VRS' own internal records state that 46 Serbs died in the Kravica attack: 35 soldiers and 11 civilians.[275] while the ICTY Prosecutor's Office's investigation of casualties on 7 and 8 January in Kravica and the surrounding villages found that 43 people were killed, of whom 13 were obviously civilians.[276] Nevertheless the event continues to be cited by Serb sources as the key example of heinous crimes committed by Bosniak forces around Srebrenica.[270] As for the destruction and casualties in the villages of Kravica, Siljkovići, Bjelovac, Fakovići and Sikirić, the judgement states that the prosecution failed to present convincing evidence that the Bosnian forces were responsible for them, because the Serb forces used artillery in the fighting in those villages. In the case of the village of Bjelovac, Serbs even used warplanes.[277]"

Joe, unfortunately, I have to say you are sad reminder to all bad what UN forces represented here.



< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 7/15/2012 7:33:42 PM >

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 17
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/15/2012 11:38:10 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 3584
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

What is striking that after 17 years you believe to Serbs propaganda ...


The Associated Press isn't a propaganda outlet for Republica Serbska; in fact, most Western media outlets showed a pro-Bosnian bias by not reporting all the atrocities against Serb civilians living in Sreb by Oric and his Bosnian brigands.

And you have again confused NATO -- the command SFORVII was under -- with the UN.






_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Emir Agic)
Post #: 18
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/16/2012 3:42:55 AM   
wodin


Posts: 7870
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
Serbs were also our old friends from WW2. This I'm sure played apart during the crises.

Looking at the posts here I'm more prone to go by Joe D as he seems to have no agenda nor real personal opinion getting in the way. An outsider is always more objective than someone who feels enraged or the issue is more personal. As the person more "involved" only ever really see one side and are more open to propaganda themselves.Or they are blind to any other side to an argument especially if it paints a party in a better light than the person is willing to give any credit for.

Emir it's obviously a highly emotive subject to you. Like it or not when feelings get in the way sometimes we refuse to see anything or hear anything that doesn't fit in with our way of thinking. This can cause us to only ever look for articles or phrases that fit in with our viewpoint and if it does we wont look deeper into it or check it's validity or even check for any contradicting reports. This is why History and even first hand accounts are so interesting and intriguing and why even today books come out about WW1 or WW2 or even wars older than that, it's also great to read memoirs from different sides and see the different viewpoints of the same situation.

All I know is atrocities are caused by all sides in all wars (Russian, Germany and Japan from WW2). The losers atrocities are always made the most of and punished (Germany and Japan). The victors swept up under a carpet (Russia do we include Dresden (British) here aswell?).

Anyway this thread is going to get locked I feel. To emotive a subject I think.

< Message edited by wodin -- 7/16/2012 3:47:30 AM >


_____________________________

My Tactical wargame facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/Tacticalwargame


(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 19
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/16/2012 6:36:47 AM   
bairdlander

 

Posts: 1501
Joined: 3/28/2009
Status: offline
Never forget anyone who has ever perished in a conflict.Right or wrong whatever side you on on,never forget the loss of human life that conflicts make.

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 20
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/16/2012 8:20:00 AM   
Emir Agic


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
Double post

< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 7/16/2012 8:24:38 AM >

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 21
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/16/2012 8:20:58 AM   
Emir Agic


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

What is striking that after 17 years you believe to Serbs propaganda ...


The Associated Press isn't a propaganda outlet for Republica Serbska; in fact, most Western media outlets showed a pro-Bosnian bias by not reporting all the atrocities against Serb civilians living in Sreb by Oric and his Bosnian brigands.


No, AP it is not propaganda. I have never said that. They just quoted "Serbs blame Oric and his forces for killing ...".

That was in AP article form 2003. Since that there was a trail at International Court Tribunal against Oric and it was acquitted of all charges. It was all over a news including your beloved AP. Here you can read Associated Press article form 2008 about Hague Court dropping all charges against Oric. Also, International Court and other experts ruled out original Serb claim about 2.000 killed civilians as propaganda and fantasy. So called Christmas massacre incident is well documented but you just ignore the facts.

So, I'm not sure why do you play stupid and what do you want to prove here?


< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 7/16/2012 8:25:56 AM >

(in reply to Emir Agic)
Post #: 22
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/16/2012 8:36:18 AM   
Emir Agic


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Looking at the posts here I'm more prone to go by Joe D as he seems to have no agenda nor real personal opinion getting in the way.

...

Emir it's obviously a highly emotive subject to you. Like it or not when feelings get in the way sometimes we refuse to see anything or hear anything that doesn't fit in with our way of thinking.



Wodin, you are right. Subject is emotive for me. That's why I'm trying to be objective by referencing to well known and documented facts established by international courts and international experts. All what I have written is easy to check. Joe maybe have no agenda but he showed that his knowledge about events is very shallow and biased.

quote:

This is why History and even first hand accounts are so interesting and intriguing and why even today books come out about WW1 or WW2 or even wars older than that, it's also great to read memoirs from different sides and see the different viewpoints of the same situation.


I agree. Everything what is said about Srebrenica is well documented and went through serious checking from international experts. I only refer to that sources and if you think that they are biased then I'm biased too.

< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 7/16/2012 10:06:44 AM >

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 23
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/16/2012 11:40:15 AM   
Joe D.


Posts: 3584
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

That was in AP article form 2003. Since that there was a trail at International Court Tribunal against Oric and it was acquitted of all charges ...


Contradicting yourself again?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Again, it seems that you have very shallow knowledge about what happened in '95. Oric was on trial for war crimes and sentenced to (only) two years in prison. He was acquitted of direct involvement in the murder of prisoners and basically was sentenced for not trying to punish some of his men for doing cruelties against captured Serb soldiers ...


How was Oric "acquitted of all charges" and then sentenced to prison for war crimes? As the Bosnian Commander at Sreb, Oric was responsible for everything his troops did under him.

As this thread continues, it becomes increasingly obvious that you are not only blindly biased, but that you also have a hidden agenda for inserting your OT propaganda here.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Emir Agic)
Post #: 24
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/16/2012 11:50:17 AM   
Emir Agic


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

How was Oric "acquitted of all charges" and then sentenced to prison for war crimes? As the Bosnian Commander at Sreb, Oric was responsible for everything his troops did under him.

As this thread continues, it becomes increasingly obvious that you are not only blindly biased, but that you also have a hidden agenda for inserting your OT propaganda here.


Joe D. first read what I have posted then comment. He was sentenced to two years but appeals judges overturned all convictions. I posted the link but you didn't bother with opening it. Here it is again: link to USA Today article (2008) signed by Associated Press writer - Mike Corder.

< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 7/16/2012 11:52:05 AM >

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 25
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/16/2012 1:33:26 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 3584
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Again, it seems that you have very shallow knowledge about what happened in '95. Oric was on trial for war crimes and sentenced to (only) two years in prison. He was acquitted of direct involvement in the murder of prisoners and basically was sentenced for not trying to punish some of his men for doing cruelties against captured Serb soldiers ...


As the on site commander of the Bosnian forces in Sreb, Oric's failure to punish, or otherwise deter his own soldiers from committing atrocities is itself a war crime, regardless of the sentence handed down.

Your refusal to face this fact shows deliberate ignorance on your part.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Emir Agic)
Post #: 26
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/16/2012 2:05:58 PM   
vonRocko

 

Posts: 1160
Joined: 11/4/2008
Status: offline
Good thread, I'm learning something. By the way Emir, are you guys all getting along now? Or is this anger still simmering, waiting for the right conditions to flare up again?

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 27
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/16/2012 3:32:27 PM   
Emir Agic


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
As the on site commander of the Bosnian forces in Sreb, Oric's failure to punish, or otherwise deter his own soldiers from committing atrocities is itself a war crime, regardless of the sentence handed down.

Your refusal to face this fact shows deliberate ignorance on your part.


So you haven't read actual article - again. If you read it you will find explanation:

"But appeals judges went even further, overturning both convictions because the original trial failed to establish that Oric had control over forces responsible for the crimes" (AP, 2008).

Apparently, you have no idea about awful conditions in Srebrenica during siege by Serbs. 28 Inf D. wasn't professional army unit but bunch of untrained and poorly armed men living under a lot of stress. Most of them already lost family members in ethnic cleansing and were angry on Serbs. Effectively, it is hard to keep such force under strict command of anybody. That's way court found Oric not guilty.

----

Here, we have facts established by independent International court in Hague during long process but, hey, Joe D. knows better:

1. Joe D. said that UN Duchbat were abandoned by Bosnian soldiers to Serbs and not the other way around.

2. Joe D. provided rock solid "evidence" - "Serbs blame Oric...". What do you expect from side which committed genocide in Europe at the end of XX century? Of course, they want to relativize what they have done.

3. Joe D. pulled out of hat that Oric sold Srebrenica in agreement with Serbs and Sarajevo government. Did he provided single reliable source for this? Of course no.

4. Joe D. went to repeat claim about 2.000 killed civilians by Oric, which is well documented Serb propaganda fantasy made to justify their responsibility for genocide.

I need to be clear here. Defenders did take raids against surrounding villages under Serb control. But entire East Bosnia was previously completely ethnically cleansed by Serbs. Surviving population took shelter in Srebrenica and suffered from lack of food, water, medical supplies and practically living in unbearable conditions. As already mentioned, these raids were often organised in order to gather food, as the Serbs had refused access for humanitarian convoys into the enclave. During these raids mostly Serb soldiers were killed as these villages were bases for attack on safe zone. Unfortunately, during fights some Serb civilians were killed also but, again, International Court judgement states that the prosecution failed to present convincing evidence that the Bosnian forces were responsible for them, because the Serb forces used artillery in the fighting in those villages.

etc...

I wonder why Joe D. insist on his attitude despite all sources I presented? There are two possible reasons: a) His vanity is hurted as he failed to show any valid argument and B)he want to put equal sign between aggressors and victims. If this is a case, he need to find some fault on defenders side to be able to say that 8.000 killed (mostly civilians) are only justified retaliation for previous Bosniak actions. That is exactly what radical Serbs are trying to do for years.

Fortunately, a lot has been written and documented about these events and I ask anyone who not believe me to check through Internet and other independent sources about what happened in Srebrenica and generally in Bosnia during '92-'95.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 28
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/16/2012 3:41:21 PM   
Emir Agic


Posts: 325
Joined: 3/29/2004
From: Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

Good thread, I'm learning something. By the way Emir, are you guys all getting along now? Or is this anger still simmering, waiting for the right conditions to flare up again?


First, you need to realize that war is stopped at point where there was no clear winner. Because of that, Bosnia is probably country with most complex and costly political system in a world. That leads to another bunch of problems in every aspect of life. My personal opinion is that, as you said, there is a still lot of tension threatening to flare up again under right conditions. Unfortunately.

< Message edited by Emir Agic -- 7/16/2012 3:46:18 PM >

(in reply to vonRocko)
Post #: 29
RE: OT: Never Forget Srebrenica - 7/16/2012 6:38:58 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 3584
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

Apparently, you have no idea about awful conditions in Srebrenica during siege by Serbs. 28 Inf D. wasn't professional army unit but bunch of untrained and poorly armed men living under a lot of stress ...


.... who soon broke and ran when they learned their commander, Nasar Oric, was airlifted out of Sreb on orders from the Bosnian leadership in Sarajevo.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emir Agic
1. Joe D. said that UN Duchbat were abandoned by Bosnian soldiers to Serbs and not the other way around.


See above; learning that their commander had left Sreb was demoralizing, as if Davy Crocket had waved goodbye and wished good luck to the defenders of the Alamo!

The Bosnian troops who decided it was wiser to leave town not only abandoned the outnumbered Dutch peackeepers, but the unarmed Bosnian civilians in Sreb who were then left to the mercy of Serbs bent on avenging those "ethnically cleansed" by Oric's men as reported by the Associated Press.

As for the rest of your numbered remarks, the fact that you haven't directly qouted me strongly suggests that you are deliberately twisiting my words for your own agenda, but that's not surprising: one of the first things I learned during my time peacekeeping in Bosnia was that truth is often relative to the teller.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Emir Agic)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> OT: Never Forget Srebrenica Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.133