CS --> East Coast to Cape Town, fuel

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CS --> East Coast to Cape Town, fuel

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CS --> East Coast to Cape Town, fuel - 7/11/2012 2:29:13 AM

KPAX

Posts: 676
Joined: 6/3/2004
From: Where the heart is; Home of the Fighting Irish
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Working on getting the convoy set up for the wormhole (EC �� CT). Using all the short-legged AKs. Got most of them in EC now, loading with fuel. So, a few questions:

1. It appears it is about a 40 day trip, so 80 days round trip. Does that sound right? I know the speed will make a difference, but with a speed of 10-12, that should be pretty close.

2. Obviously there is not enough fuel for the trip. That is fine. But, do I need to have the re-fueling on Do Not Fuel on all the time? Does it need to be re-fueled at all? I do not want to use any of the fuel I dump into CT for the return trip if I do not have to.

3. Anyone have an idea as to how much fuel on a daily basis Oz needs to keep running at 100%?

4. Any hints on setting up or maintaining the wormhole?

_____________________________

"War makes Heros on both sides." Hero (the movie)

Thanks !!

KPAX

Post #: 1

RE: CS --> East Coast to Cape Town, fuel - 7/11/2012 3:32:58 AM

Dan Nichols

Posts: 863
Joined: 8/30/2011
Status: offline

EC -> CT is 170/6 = 28.333 days. It takes 1 - 1.5 days at each end to load/unload. I just figure 60 days round trip. I was using it for 6 months, but I am in the process of dismantling in. I don't think it is worth it. You use twice as much shipping to move it from EC -> CT and then CT -> OZ as opposed to just moving from WC -> OZ.

As far as I can tell, your ships will use no fuel or sustain any damage on the EC - > CT run. Not true for the CT -> OZ run.

< Message edited by Dan Nichols -- 7/11/2012 3:36:04 AM >

(in reply to KPAX)

Post #: 2

RE: CS --> East Coast to Cape Town, fuel - 7/11/2012 6:39:40 AM

jmalter

Posts: 983
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline

shipping between off-map ports uses no fuel, nor does it accumulate damage pts. i give my convoys a full refuel at EC, then send them off to CT. you can safely ignore the 'red' fuel indications, and Tracker's 'not enough fuel for mission' msgs for these convoys. settings for 'full refuel' or 'do not refuel' don't seem to make a difference - the game-engine don't subtract fuel from them, nor do they suck fuel from the CT destination before they sail back to the EC (unless they weren't fully-fueled at the EC origination, and weren't set to 'do not refuel').

there's a good reason to ship fuel from EC > CT - the auto-convoys that appear at CT & CT's 250 fuel-points/month don't provide enough fuel to support the CT > Oz convoys. the 'wormhole' occurs when CT doesn't have enough fuel to serve the AKs on the CT > Oz route.

so for a '42 time-frame, about 1/2 of your EC > CT boats should be transporting fuel to CT, and any convoys on the CT > Perth route should be set to 'minimal refuel' when you load them. you must prevent on-map convoys returning to CT from refueling - refuel them 'minimally' when you send them off.

according to Tracker, Oz requires 2240 fuel/day for its HI, & can only produce 495/day (but you must ship in oil to maintain that 495/day production). also you're gonna need more fuel, to support any naval ops in Oz.

so building up a decent +250k stock of fuel at CT is worthwhile, it'll take some several months, but by 12/42 you'll have the option of shipping fuel from CT > Perth.

(in reply to Dan Nichols)

Post #: 3

RE: CS --> East Coast to Cape Town, fuel - 7/11/2012 7:22:25 AM

KPAX

Posts: 676
Joined: 6/3/2004
From: Where the heart is; Home of the Fighting Irish
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Jmalter,

Excellent! Clearly stated, thanks!

_____________________________

"War makes Heros on both sides." Hero (the movie)

Thanks !!

KPAX

(in reply to jmalter)

Post #: 4

RE: CS --> East Coast to Cape Town, fuel - 7/11/2012 8:49:34 AM

jmalter

Posts: 983
Joined: 10/12/2010
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hi kpax,

my DBB_B game is at 12/42 vs the IJ AI. i miserly husbanded fuel at CT from the start, and began sending fuel-only xAKs on the EC>CT run about 4/42. also i've been bringing fuel from Abadan > Perth.

one thing about the Oz rail-net, it's good for bringing supplies from Perth to Sydney. but it don't xfer fuel at all, i have to use TKs to send fuel from Perth to Sydney.

but now, w/ ~4m supply in Oz, it's time to start bringing in that CT fuel.

Oz refineries don't have nearly enough indigenous oil-production to keep them running. but WC USA is producing more fuel than it can ship. so, about 5/42, shut off the WC refineries for 1 week. the unused oil will pool in LA, where you can ship it to Sydney. 1 week's oil-production won't hurt the CONUS fuel situation, but will keep Oz refineries happy for 2 years if you ship the oil from LA > Sydney.

(in reply to KPAX)

Post #: 5

RE: CS --> East Coast to Cape Town, fuel - 7/11/2012 4:14:05 PM

KPAX

Posts: 676
Joined: 6/3/2004
From: Where the heart is; Home of the Fighting Irish
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

my DBB_B game is at 12/42 vs the IJ AI. i miserly husbanded fuel at CT from the start, and began sending fuel-only xAKs on the EC>CT run about 4/42. also i've been bringing fuel from Abadan > Perth.

one thing about the Oz rail-net, it's good for bringing supplies from Perth to Sydney. but it don't xfer fuel at all, i have to use TKs to send fuel from Perth to Sydney.

but now, w/ ~4m supply in Oz, it's time to start bringing in that CT fuel.

Oz refineries don't have nearly enough indigenous oil-production to keep them running. but WC USA is producing more fuel than it can ship. so, about 5/42, shut off the WC refineries for 1 week. the unused oil will pool in LA, where you can ship it to Sydney. 1 week's oil-production won't hurt the CONUS fuel situation, but will keep Oz refineries happy for 2 years if you ship the oil from LA > Sydney.

Again, Thanks!!

I just want to clarify ... You said FUEL where indicated above, did you mean OIL? The Perth FUEL drop will go everywhere, but the OIL will not move to Sydney?

Can I Stockpile the OIL in EC and ship it to CT and then to Perth/Syndey?

And a big favor, please .... I can not get Tracker to work (even after reading the forum and messing with it). Can you tell me what the daily fuel needs are for India, Burma and China? And, will the fuel move from Kar to the rest of India, Burma and China?

Again, well stated!!

_____________________________

"War makes Heros on both sides." Hero (the movie)

Thanks !!

KPAX

(in reply to jmalter)

Post #: 6

RE: CS --> East Coast to Cape Town, fuel - 7/11/2012 6:16:49 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 6149
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: KPAX

And, will the fuel move from Kar to the rest of India, Burma and China?

I dump fuel into Karachi and it goes just fine to Bombay and Calcutta. I don't think it moves well or at all to Burma or China from India. But I've never charted it. By the time I need fuel in Burma I have sea control enough to send it straight to Rangoon.

You can often get away with sending tanker TFs from Abadan to Karachi unescorted. Once in awhile there will be a sub there, but it's a decently low risk. If tankers are going anywhere else in India they get escorts.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to KPAX)

Post #: 7

RE: CS --> East Coast to Cape Town, fuel - 7/11/2012 6:46:34 PM

Encircled

Posts: 617
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline

I don't have an issue transferring fuel by rail from Perth to Sydney, at least not that I've noticed.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)

Post #: 8

RE: CS --> East Coast to Cape Town, fuel - 7/11/2012 6:58:02 PM

Bullwinkle58

Posts: 6149
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

I don't have an issue transferring fuel by rail from Perth to Sydney, at least not that I've noticed.

Me either. I just doesn't move every day.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Encircled)

Post #: 9

RE: CS --> East Coast to Cape Town, fuel - 7/11/2012 8:34:21 PM

jmalter

Posts: 983
Joined: 10/12/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KPAX
I just want to clarify ... You said FUEL where indicated above, did you mean OIL? The Perth FUEL drop will go everywhere, but the OIL will not move to Sydney?

Can I Stockpile the OIL in EC and ship it to CT and then to Perth/Syndey?

And a big favor, please .... I can not get Tracker to work (even after reading the forum and messing with it). Can you tell me what the daily fuel needs are for India, Burma and China? And, will the fuel move from Kar to the rest of India, Burma and China?

i meant FUEL, not oil. i prob'ly overstated the case by saying that Perth fuel didn't rail out to the rest of Oz at all. but it hasn't been getting to Sydney fast enough for my needs (fleet refueling & transhipment to Noumea).

CONUS doesn't have excess oil, but if you turn off the refineries, you'll stockpile 25,000/day. it will pool in Los Angeles, so it's best to ship it from there to Sydney - the 14,000-cap TKs can round-trip in about 60 days along the southern route, w/o the need to refuel at Sydney. Oz has an oil shortfall of 450/day, so one day's oil lost from CONUS is 55 days when it arrives in Oz. but keep in mind that the 25,000 oil is 250,000 fuel - turn it off for 4 days and that's 1 million fuel that you won't have on the West Coast. & since CONUS has no excess refinery capacity, any oil stockpiled there can't be used, it must be shipped to Oz.

India (when undamaged) has a fuel-production shortfall of 2,050/day. it's rail-net is excellent, & fuel arriving at Karachi flows easily, pooling mainly in Madras. don't expect any to get to get sent further than Chittagong.

Burma (when undamaged) is self-sufficient in oil and produces an excess of fuel, which pools in Rangoon.

China is also self-sufficient in oil & produces an excess of fuel, but a lot of the fuel is lost to spoilage. i've got to slog a construction rgt or 2 up to Urumchi - building up its airfield will increase its fuel storage capacity.

(in reply to KPAX)

Post #: 10

RE: CS --> East Coast to Cape Town, fuel - 7/11/2012 10:26:29 PM

Encircled

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Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
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I better clarify that also use WC-PH-Auckland-Sydney as well.

I use Auckland as a "hub" for Noumea/Luganville/Sydney

But 80% of my Oz fuel goes via CT, and I'm currently supporting the vast majority of the USN out of Sydney without any hassale.

(in reply to jmalter)

Post #: 11

RE: CS --> East Coast to Cape Town, fuel - 7/12/2012 1:39:27 AM

Justus2

Posts: 251
Joined: 11/12/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

i meant FUEL, not oil. i prob'ly overstated the case by saying that Perth fuel didn't rail out to the rest of Oz at all. but it hasn't been getting to Sydney fast enough for my needs (fleet refueling & transhipment to Noumea).

CONUS doesn't have excess oil, but if you turn off the refineries, you'll stockpile 25,000/day. it will pool in Los Angeles, so it's best to ship it from there to Sydney - the 14,000-cap TKs can round-trip in about 60 days along the southern route, w/o the need to refuel at Sydney. Oz has an oil shortfall of 450/day, so one day's oil lost from CONUS is 55 days when it arrives in Oz. but keep in mind that the 25,000 oil is 250,000 fuel - turn it off for 4 days and that's 1 million fuel that you won't have on the West Coast. & since CONUS has no excess refinery capacity, any oil stockpiled there can't be used, it must be shipped to Oz.

Is that correct? I have always understood (admittedly, still have a lot to learn) that each oil center produces 10 oil, each refinery converts 10 oil into 9 fuel and 1 supply. So 25,000 oil will still only produce 22,500 fuel, with another 2,500 supply. That's why I've read it's not worth shipping oil, just ship the fuel and turn some of the Oz refineries off.

In terms of shipping, I like to use both routes, using large TKs for fuel on the LA-Syd route (sometimes use Suva as a hub), and then I like some of the large slow xAKs that have some fuel capacity of their own (5600/200 or the larger british ones) to carry fuel from EC-CT, then TKs from CT-Perth. I figure the off-map leg doesnt consume fuel anyway, so I don't care if they are not as efficient, and it frees up the TKs for the on-map duty.

< Message edited by Justus2 -- 7/12/2012 1:42:18 AM >

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(in reply to jmalter)

Post #: 12

RE: CS --> East Coast to Cape Town, fuel - 7/12/2012 2:39:26 AM

jmalter

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you are right about the 9fuel/1supply thing, Justus2 - i was looking at the wrong blivet on the Tracker Industry chart. but there are some mod scenarios where the refineries don't produce any supply

i'm with you on reserving TKs for on-map use - of 28 convoys that i've got currently shuttling between off-map bases, only 2 (10 ships total) are TKs.

btw the new version of Tracker has a button on the Ship Classes page to show fuel/cargo efficiency.

(in reply to Justus2)

Post #: 13

RE: CS --> East Coast to Cape Town, fuel - 7/12/2012 9:24:16 AM

Banzan

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From: Bremen, Germany
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As a general rule, you never ever ship oil if you can ship fuel instead.

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Post #: 14

RE: CS --> East Coast to Cape Town, fuel - 7/12/2012 3:31:48 PM

crsutton

Posts: 6190
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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Never ship oil to OZ, ship fuel. But since the only real benefit of fuel and oil in OZ is to produce supply, why not just send supply?

Oz produces enough supply with her limited resources. I did not find it necessary to send much fuel to Oz. A few times in early 1942 I sent a few convoys with fuel from the West Coast and Cape Town but I was fighting heavily in OZ. Still don't know if it was really necessary.

It is more important to ship fuel to bases near but not connected to OZ so that you can stockpile it. (Hobart, Port Headland) My experience is that the Allies side needs fuel in the South Pacific for her ships (carriers and BBs eat up gas) but not so much for supply. If you need supply in OZ, send supply. Unlike the Japanese player you do not rely on fuel and HI to run your industry. Lack of oil in Oz does not affect the flow of devices and aircraft.

Except perhaps in China, I don't think the Allied player really needs to look a industry anywhere on the map. It sort of runs on autopilot.

The most annoying thing is that Australian industry tends to suck fuel up as fast as you can deliver it. It is hard to keep enough fuel in Sidney to refuel your ships. I found it best to park some AOs there in the early going.

_____________________________

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Godwin's Law

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Post #: 15

RE: CS --> East Coast to Cape Town, fuel - 7/13/2012 8:43:27 PM

Gary D

Posts: 156
Joined: 6/6/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline

KPAX,

The following is from a post by NY59Giants. I have tried it and thought it worked very well. I went slow on the AP conversions, and any convoy going to India from CT stops at Abadan on the way back to CT to load fuel. Now in July 42 and neither fuel or supply is an issue in India or Oz.

About 20 of the 3900 capacity AK's that I went slow on to convert were used for a few EC to CT runs to bring in supply. Did not need them after July though, CT had all the fuel and supply that the fleets in use in that theater could haul.

Of course our mileages may vary dependent on differing operational tempos, but I think NY59Giants plan lays a nice foundation.

Search some of NY59Giants other posts for more logistical tidbits if you have time.

All the best,

quote:

Fuel, the life blood of a modern fleet. Here is my list of those who will be moving it and to where.
After my CVs, the fast AOs get priority on escorts.

FUEL:Ships to Move It

Type...Class..............Capacity.....Spd...Where
TK......Sun Type H..........6650........12.....Abadon to India
TK......ETC Type-M..........5190........12.....Abadon to India

TK......BTC Type-L..........8075........14.....Abadon to Cape Town
TK......BP Type-D...........10800.......14.....Abadon to Cape Town

TK......Federal Type-E......9430........14.....Cape Town to Perth

AO......Patoka..............9820........11.....USA to�
xAK.....EC2 Liberty Cargo...0/6250/500..12.....USA to�
AO......Kanawha.............7850........13.....USA to�

AO......Admlty/Dale AO......10150.......14.....USA to�
TK......T2-SE-A.............14250.......14.....USA to�
xAK.....Euro K..............0/5600/200..14.....USA to�

AO......Kennebec............12950.......16.....USA to �
TK......Shell Type-A........12650.......16.....USA to �
TK......Esso Type-T.........14025.......16.....USA to �
xAK.....C2-T Cargo..........0/5600/300..16.....USA to �

AO......Neosho..............14950.......16.....Follow CVs

xAK.....Euro L............5067-200/7580/550..17.....USA to �
xAK.....C3-S Cargo..........0/7010/500..17.....USA to �
xAK.....C3-E Cargo..........0/5600/300..17.....USA to �
The last three classes of xAKs are used as Tankers due to their speed and already limited liquid capacity.

Cargo Classes

Type.....Class...............Capacity.....Speed.....Endurance..... Where
xAK.....Transmarine........2133/3200..........12..........11000..........WC to Pearl
xAK.....Harriman...........3500/5200..........12..........14900..........USA to
xAK.....Isthmian...........3200/4800..........12..........13600..........USA to
xAK.....Hog Island.........3267/4900..........12..........14700..........USA to
xAK.....Luckenbach.........4240/6300..........12..........16600..........USA to
xAK.....Pacific L..........2600/3900..........12..........12000..........Convert to xAP�USA
xAK.....Dominion M.........3700/5550..........13..........14600..........Convert to xAP�USA
xAK.....Euro K............3883/5600/200.......14..........17900..........USA to
xAK.....Southwest..........4273/6410..........14..........13200..........USA to
xAK.....C1-A Cargo.........3033/4550..........14..........19300..........Convert to xAP in 2/42
xAK.....C2 Cargo...........3733-100/5600/200..16..........13500..........Convert to xAP in 2/42
xAK.....C3-E Cargo.......3833-150/5700/400....17..........15600..........USA to
xAK.....Euro L.........5253-200/7580/550......17..........14000..........USA to

xAK.....Pacific M.............0/2900..........12..........6000...........Abadan to India
xAK.....Dominion L.........4267/6400..........12..........16800..........Cape Town to
xAK.....Euro M.............2783/4175..........14..........12300..........Cape Town to

Transmarine - I usually form two 30 ship TF that go from San Fran to Pearl with about 100k supply. they get three to four escorts.

Pacific L and Dominion M are my workhorses in getting troops from USA to bases all the way to Australia. They start in India and go through a conversion to xAP at Cape Town for 24 days. Then to Panama and USA. So, not until Feb 42 do they arrive in numbers at USA to be used.

I form most TF by speed. I don't usually form any with more than 2 knots difference. So, the 12 and 13 speed transports go together, then the 14 speed, and the last group will be the 16 and 17 speed.