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Can anyone provide commentary on why these results went the way they did?

 
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Can anyone provide commentary on why these results went... - 7/9/2012 12:19:02 PM   
Roger Neilson 3


Posts: 542
Joined: 4/12/2012
From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
Status: online
1. In this case the bomber seem untouched by the fighter CAP: is it that the CAP is busy with the other raids or is there an explanation in the actual intercept (red text) part??

Morning Air attack on TF, near Thousand Ships Bay at 114,136 Weather in hex: Heavy rain Raid detected at 72 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 31 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M3a Zero x 15 A6M5 Zero x 27 Ki-61-Ia Tony x 11 Allied aircraft SB2C-1C Helldiver x 27 SBD-5 Dauntless x 14 No Japanese losses Allied aircraft losses SB2C-1C Helldiver: 2 damaged Japanese Ships BB Yamato, Bomb hits 3 CL Yura, Bomb hits 1 Aircraft Attacking: 27 x SB2C-1C Helldiver bombing from 5000 feet * Naval Attack: 1 x 500 lb SAP Bomb 14 x SBD-5 Dauntless bombing from 6000 feet * Naval Attack: 1 x 500 lb SAP Bomb CAP engaged: 252 Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) (15 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.) 0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 5 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 20000 Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes 202 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) (27 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.) 0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 27 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 22000 Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes 50th Sentai with Ki-61-Ia Tony (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) 0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 11 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 23000 Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes

Morning Air attack on Thousand Ships Bay, at 114,136 Weather in hex: Heavy rain Raid detected at 63 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 21 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M3a Zero x 10 A6M5 Zero x 14 Ki-61-Ia Tony x 6 Allied aircraft PB4Y-1 Liberator x 10 No Japanese losses Allied aircraft losses PB4Y-1 Liberator: 9 damaged Airbase supply hits 1 Runway hits 2 Aircraft Attacking: 10 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb CAP engaged: 252 Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) 6 plane(s) intercepting now. 3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 20000, scrambling fighters between 22000 and 25000. Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes 202 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) 4 plane(s) intercepting now. 8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 22000, scrambling fighters between 21000 and 22000. Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes 50th Sentai with Ki-61-Ia Tony (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) 6 plane(s) intercepting now. Group patrol altitude is 23000 Raid is overhead

Morning Air attack on TF, near Thousand Ships Bay at 114,136 Weather in hex: Heavy rain Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 11 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M3a Zero x 2 A6M5 Zero x 9 Ki-61-Ia Tony x 2 Allied aircraft SBD-5 Dauntless x 2 No Japanese losses Allied aircraft losses SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed CAP engaged: 252 Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) 2 plane(s) intercepting now. Group patrol altitude is 20000 Raid is overhead 202 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) 1 plane(s) intercepting now. 8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 22000, scrambling fighters to 6000. Time for all group planes to reach interception is 85 minutes 50th Sentai with Ki-61-Ia Tony (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) 2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 23000, scrambling fighters to 6000. Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes

Morning Air attack on Thousand Ships Bay, at 114,136 Weather in hex: Heavy rain Raid detected at 67 NM, estimated altitude 17,800 feet. Estimated time to target is 25 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M3a Zero x 11 A6M5 Zero x 20 Ki-61-Ia Tony x 8 Allied aircraft F4U-1 Corsair x 3 Japanese aircraft losses A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed Allied aircraft losses F4U-1 Corsair: 1 destroyed CAP engaged: 252 Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) 3 plane(s) intercepting now. 0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 20000 Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes 202 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) 6 plane(s) intercepting now. 0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 22000 Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes 50th Sentai with Ki-61-Ia Tony (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) 0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 23000 Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes

2. Another situation

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Thousand Ships Bay at 114,136 Weather in hex: Partial cloud Raid detected at 77 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 33 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M5 Zero x 24 Ki-61-Ia Tony x 11 Allied aircraft SB2C-1C Helldiver x 25 No Japanese losses Allied aircraft losses SB2C-1C Helldiver: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged Japanese Ships E W-20, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage E W-17, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires Aircraft Attacking: 24 x SB2C-1C Helldiver bombing from 5000 feet * Naval Attack: 1 x 500 lb SAP Bomb CAP engaged: 202 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) (9 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.) 2 plane(s) intercepting now. 0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 15 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 12000 Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes 50th Sentai with Ki-61-Ia Tony (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) 0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 11 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 13000 Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes Heavy smoke from fires obscuring E W-20 Heavy smoke from fires obscuring E W-17

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Stewart Island at 116,139 Weather in hex: Partial cloud Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 20 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M3a Zero x 5 D4Y1 Judy x 6 Allied aircraft P-39D Airacobra x 8 P-39N1 Airacobra x 7 Japanese aircraft losses A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed D4Y1 Judy: 3 destroyed D4Y1 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak No Allied losses Allied Ships DD Trathen CAP engaged: 531st FBS with P-39N1 Airacobra (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) (7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.) 7 plane(s) intercepting now. Group patrol altitude is 11000 Raid is overhead 4 planes vectored on to bombers 35th FG/40th FS with P-39D Airacobra (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) (8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.) 4 plane(s) intercepting now. 0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 15000 Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes

Morning Air attack on TF, near Stewart Island at 116,139 Weather in hex: Moderate rain Raid detected at 92 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet. Estimated time to target is 23 minutes Japanese aircraft A6M3a Zero x 19 D4Y1 Judy x 9 Allied aircraft P-39D Airacobra x 11 P-39N1 Airacobra x 11 Japanese aircraft losses A6M3a Zero: 3 destroyed D4Y1 Judy: 5 damaged Allied aircraft losses P-39N1 Airacobra: 1 destroyed Allied Ships DD Aulick DD Bennett Aircraft Attacking: 9 x D4Y1 Judy bombing from 6000 feet Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb CAP engaged: 531st FBS with P-39N1 Airacobra (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) (11 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.) 4 plane(s) intercepting now. 0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 11000 Time for all group planes to reach interception is 13 minutes 35th FG/40th FS with P-39D Airacobra (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling) (11 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.) 0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 11 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact. Group patrol altitude is 15000 Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes

The Japanese High Command is asking why the disparity in the Allied DBs getting through without much harm, and the Japanese getting butchered.

Roger

< Message edited by Roger Neilson 3 -- 7/9/2012 12:21:58 PM >


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RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 12:35:19 PM   
castor troy


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From: Austria
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I would really like to help but your combat report is unreadable for me the way you post it

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RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 1:08:04 PM   
Roger Neilson 3


Posts: 542
Joined: 4/12/2012
From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
Status: online
What is the problem with it please Castor?

I can easily sort that.

Roger

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Post #: 3
RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 1:16:25 PM   
n01487477


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Joined: 2/21/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

What is the problem with it please Castor?

I can easily sort that.

Roger

The formatting is not very good Roger




Attachment (1)

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EconDoc
TrackerAE
Tutes&Java

(in reply to Roger Neilson 3)
Post #: 4
RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 2:15:06 PM   
Roger Neilson 3


Posts: 542
Joined: 4/12/2012
From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
Status: online
Ok here is the action round Stewart Island and with a little prelim at Thousand Ships Bay:

Morning Air attack on TF, near Stewart Island at 116,139

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 92 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 23 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 19
D4Y1 Judy x 9



Allied aircraft
P-39D Airacobra x 11
P-39N1 Airacobra x 11


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 3 destroyed
D4Y1 Judy: 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-39N1 Airacobra: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
DD Aulick
DD Bennett



Aircraft Attacking:
9 x D4Y1 Judy bombing from 6000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
531st FBS with P-39N1 Airacobra (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(11 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 13 minutes
35th FG/40th FS with P-39D Airacobra (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(11 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 11 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes


Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Stewart Island at 116,139

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 20 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 5
D4Y1 Judy x 6



Allied aircraft
P-39D Airacobra x 8
P-39N1 Airacobra x 7


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed
D4Y1 Judy: 3 destroyed
D4Y1 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
DD Trathen



CAP engaged:
531st FBS with P-39N1 Airacobra (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Raid is overhead
4 planes vectored on to bombers
35th FG/40th FS with P-39D Airacobra (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Thousand Ships Bay at 114,136

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 77 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 33 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 24
Ki-61-Ia Tony x 11



Allied aircraft
SB2C-1C Helldiver x 25


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
SB2C-1C Helldiver: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged

Japanese Ships
E W-20, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
E W-17, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires



Aircraft Attacking:
24 x SB2C-1C Helldiver bombing from 5000 feet *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
202 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(9 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 15 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 12000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
50th Sentai with Ki-61-Ia Tony (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 11 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 13000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring E W-20
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring E W-17

I have included all three as they seem to me to be oart of the overall activity round this area that day. There was no other aerial engagements.

Hadn't realised how reformatted the originals were.

Roger

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Post #: 5
RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 2:21:02 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 15176
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477


quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

What is the problem with it please Castor?

I can easily sort that.

Roger

The formatting is not very good Roger


Honestly I am having the same problem only part way through the first (red-colored) report.

For this sort of thing I think that line breaks are your friend. Maybe even bullets or dashes at the beginning of each line to separate "items". Different combat reports can be separated by double blank lines or by a row of dashes. Fact is, for this you might just want to paste in a copy directly from the combat reports because that format is OK to read, and use lines of dashes to separate them.

quote:

Morning Air attack on TF, near Thousand Ships Bay at 114,136
Weather in hex: Heavy rain
Raid detected at 72 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 15
A6M5 Zero x 27 Ki-61-Ia
Tony x 11

Allied aircraft
SB2C-1C Helldiver x 27
SBD-5 Dauntless x 14

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
SB2C-1C Helldiver: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 3
CL Yura, Bomb hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x SB2C-1C Helldiver bombing from 5000 feet * Naval Attack: 1 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
14 x SBD-5 Dauntless bombing from 6000 feet * Naval Attack: 1 x 500 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
252 Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(15 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged,
10 being recalled,
5 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes

202 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(27 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged,
27 being recalled,
0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 22000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes

50th Sentai with Ki-61-Ia Tony
(0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged,
11 being recalled,
0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 23000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes


Which do you think is easier to read and analyze - the original continuous paragraph or this version where all I did was go through and add carriage returns? (BTW I might not have put them all in the right places; it's hard to tell.)

(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 6
RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 2:22:13 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 15176
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
Our posts crossed, Roger!

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Post #: 7
RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 2:23:04 PM   
Roger Neilson 3


Posts: 542
Joined: 4/12/2012
From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
Status: online
And here separately is the previous action - from the day before. reminder, the Japanese HQ would like to know how that initial Helldiver/Dauntless raid managed to get through the heavy CAP>

Morning Air attack on TF, near Thousand Ships Bay at 114,136

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 72 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 15
A6M5 Zero x 27
Ki-61-Ia Tony x 11



Allied aircraft
SB2C-1C Helldiver x 27
SBD-5 Dauntless x 14


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
SB2C-1C Helldiver: 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 3
CL Yura, Bomb hits 1



Aircraft Attacking:
27 x SB2C-1C Helldiver bombing from 5000 feet *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 lb SAP Bomb
14 x SBD-5 Dauntless bombing from 6000 feet *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
252 Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(15 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 5 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
202 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(27 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 27 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 22000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
50th Sentai with Ki-61-Ia Tony (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 11 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 23000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Thousand Ships Bay , at 114,136

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 67 NM, estimated altitude 17,800 feet.
Estimated time to target is 25 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 11
A6M5 Zero x 20
Ki-61-Ia Tony x 8



Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 3


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1 Corsair: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
252 Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
202 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 13 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 22000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
50th Sentai with Ki-61-Ia Tony (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 23000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Thousand Ships Bay at 114,136

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 32 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 2
A6M5 Zero x 9
Ki-61-Ia Tony x 2



Allied aircraft
SBD-5 Dauntless x 2


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
252 Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
202 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 22000 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 85 minutes
50th Sentai with Ki-61-Ia Tony (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 23000 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Thousand Ships Bay , at 114,136

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 63 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 21 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 10
A6M5 Zero x 14
Ki-61-Ia Tony x 6



Allied aircraft
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 10


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 9 damaged



Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
252 Ku S-1 with A6M3a Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 22000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
202 Ku S-1 with A6M5 Zero (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 22000 , scrambling fighters between 21000 and 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
50th Sentai with Ki-61-Ia Tony (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 23000
Raid is overhead

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RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 2:26:08 PM   
Roger Neilson 3


Posts: 542
Joined: 4/12/2012
From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
Status: online
Agree the line breaks etc are helpful, I strip that out and file the combat reports so had copied rom them but have now pulled the originals.

So would appreciate any 'reading' of them that shows what happened. I'm the Allies BTW, so am reasonably happy with those results, but i can see my PBEM opponent's annoyance...

Roger


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Our posts crossed, Roger!



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Post #: 9
RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 2:31:41 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 15176
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From: Argleton
Status: offline
On my first reading I don't have any amazing pearls of wisdom. Most of those Allied planes are at least tough. Mostly the Japanese fighters had to catch up to the Allied planes.

Any notions on how relative pilot quality might have been?

(in reply to Roger Neilson 3)
Post #: 10
RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 2:35:34 PM   
Roger Neilson 3


Posts: 542
Joined: 4/12/2012
From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
Status: online
No idea on the enemy, mine were not startlingly good, very average in the 50 to 60 experience I'd say.

Roger

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Post #: 11
RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 2:41:15 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 15176
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
I meant that term more expansively to include any relevant skills. So in this case, Air, Defense, NavB...

(in reply to Roger Neilson 3)
Post #: 12
RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 2:59:44 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 6065
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/now in Israel
Status: online
I'd say that Heavy rain and CAP being 10k higher than attack is partial explanation. Japanese CAP probably could not see attackers, since they could be coming under clouds while CAP was above clouds.

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Post #: 13
RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 3:14:32 PM   
Puhis

 

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From: Finland
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Yes, CAP was too high. Also I'd check fighter commanders does they have enough air skill and aggressiveness.

BTW, you are using dive bombers wrongly, they are not dive bombing at all when they are bombing from 5000 or 6000 feet.

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Post #: 14
RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 3:25:13 PM   
Roger Neilson 3


Posts: 542
Joined: 4/12/2012
From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
Status: online
Aha its my opponent, not me. Its not so much the lack of hits as his planes getting shot up compared to mine that's the issue. I'm the Allies.

Roger

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Post #: 15
RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 3:29:23 PM   
Roger Neilson 3


Posts: 542
Joined: 4/12/2012
From: Bedlington, Northumberland, UK
Status: online
Can't verify that now as the game has moved on.

I'm really just looking to see what can be deduced from the combat report, so the height of the CAP was my thought, they took time to get down, and also they were engaged with the other raid.

Had not thought of the weather.... that also adds some logical reason into the lack of intercept.

Roger

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Post #: 16
RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 4:51:29 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Yes, CAP was too high. Also I'd check fighter commanders does they have enough air skill and aggressiveness.

BTW, you are using dive bombers wrongly, they are not dive bombing at all when they are bombing from 5000 or 6000 feet.


I agree. Plus-which version of the game are you playing, Roger?

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RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 4:53:23 PM   
Roger Neilson 3


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Standard game with latest patch.

Roger

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RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 5:00:12 PM   
Crackaces


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I am very very interested in the comments in this thread. I am perplexed by this game's combat resolution from flights being cancelled either with messages or without messages all the way to not intercepting at all .. in the same hex!!! I am thinking the feedback here will also give me a clue of what is going on behind the covers .... one problem in my view is that it is a game not a similation and thus applying "reaility" is not enough .. and the documention incuding the annimaiton/combat report does not provide enough information beyond speculation for learning the system/world rules as programmed by the developers .. not to game the system but to understand the questions ..

Nice discussion Roger ..

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RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/9/2012 5:08:32 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Roger Neilson 3

Standard game with latest patch.

Roger


Roger, I have not seen failure to intercept situations like this much in my game, in spite of a typical high altitude setting on CAP. I'm not saying that it's a different version-too little data to point to that-but it's on my differential list.

If these DBs had been set for a typical DB profile (ingress @ 10,000 feet, dive, pull out lower), I suspect that more of them may have been intercepted, since they were closer to the CAP than the example you posted (flew in at 5,000 feet and level bombed).

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RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/10/2012 6:59:47 AM   
LoBaron


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Agree with the others, Roger.

I think it is a combination of altitude delta and raid size. The raids were rather small, facilitating late detection.
In combination with alt this could enable many of the attackers to get through.

Everything higher than 10k altitude difference between attacker and defender has a high chance to not being intercepted at all
depending on detection range.

The trick of layered CAP is to provide cover for most of the usual incoming altitudes, or slightly above those. I would not assign a majority
of CAP down @ 6-10k, but I would assign some.

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RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/10/2012 7:55:18 AM   
Roger Neilson 3


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Thanks for all the thoughts folks, another example of how delightfully complex this game is.

Roger

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RE: Can anyone provide commentary on why these results ... - 7/11/2012 3:42:05 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Agree with the others, Roger.

I think it is a combination of altitude delta and raid size. The raids were rather small, facilitating late detection.
In combination with alt this could enable many of the attackers to get through.

Everything higher than 10k altitude difference between attacker and defender has a high chance to not being intercepted at all
depending on detection range.

The trick of layered CAP is to provide cover for most of the usual incoming altitudes, or slightly above those. I would not assign a majority
of CAP down @ 6-10k, but I would assign some.


One good mix of layered CAP in early war for Allies is F4F Wildcats at 20k, P-40s at 15k and P-39s at 10k, if you have these planes available in same base. I have found that very effective, since P-39 is quite deadly at low altitudes vs. bombers and mostly intercepts low-fliers.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 7/11/2012 3:44:22 PM >


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