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RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front

 
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RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/7/2012 4:50:25 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 10238
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Thanks, I sent him an PM.

I did a lot of work using TOAW/TOAW 2 when they first came out. One of my scenarios I researched for 5 years, but we won't go into that. Doing a game port is easier. The research is mostly done. The maps can be brought in. The Order of Battle is there unless you want to check it for accuracy, and David Isby's material would have to be most of what you would use to check his own OOB...so not much there. Creating the units from TO&E's will be the fun thing to do.

I am well versed in your 3 step process. I agree that for the most part making the units is the toughest part of the job. Map making is simply time consuming and sometimes a bit tedious. Making events is usually tedious and will be time consuming depending on how many interlocking events you put into the game.

I use spread sheets to help with both the unit construction and event creation to help maintain some idea of where I'm going. That helps me. It may not help others.

Good Hunting.

MR



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Post #: 31
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/7/2012 7:28:42 PM   
Mad Russian


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Status: offline 		Here is a dilemma that I have. The one and only place I see that ATG is short so far is roads. In the world at large, a road - is a road - is a road, is absolutely not true. Nowhere is it less true than Germany.

Since ATG only has one road type and the Central Front series of maps has two types, major and minor, the question is what to do about it?

1) I could put all the roads on the board game maps onto the ATG maps.
2) I could put only the major roads on the board game maps onto the ATG maps.

I'm leaning towards putting all the maps on the originals into the ATG map. Germany is laced with roads and tracks everywhere. It has been said that there is literally a road in any hex over 1km in size.

Here is an example of what the original map looks like for the area of Hamburg.

Any comments?

Good Hunting.

MR





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RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/7/2012 7:31:31 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 10238
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From: Texas
Status: offline 		Here is what it looks like at the moment with only the major (red) roads from the original map superimposed on it.

Creating the terrain for this map is complete except for the road net. This is the last step before going on to such things as terrain ownership, Victory Points, production, etc....

Good Hunting.

MR




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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 7/7/2012 7:33:36 PM >

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Post #: 33
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/7/2012 7:32:18 PM   
Mad Russian


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Status: offline 		I am also wanting to change some of the basic factors for things. Like the fact that a village can have unlimited air unit stacking....um, no.

If I understand it correctly if I make it where they are set by me it wipes out all the preset factors. Is that right?

Good Hunting.

MR


< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 7/8/2012 12:46:22 AM >

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Post #: 34
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 12:13:21 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

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Status: offline 		You can actually define a second type (or third and so forth) type of road. This is not a problem... you might even find that there are some premade graphics for it. The only thing you need to worry about regarding having more than one set of roads, is really that engineers can only build one type of road...

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Post #: 35
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 12:17:28 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

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From: Denmark
Status: offline 		BTW, you are using AT:WW2 graphics, not ATG graphics. This has some advantages. For instance, there are light forests in AT:WW2, there are no such thing in ATG. Just an interesting nugget.

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Post #: 36
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 12:43:15 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 10238
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From: Texas
Status: offline 		How did I get AT graphics instead of ATG? Will these play in ATG? I'm assuming they will since they are working on my machine and I've never owned AT.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 37
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 12:47:40 AM   
Mad Russian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

You can actually define a second type (or third and so forth) type of road. This is not a problem... you might even find that there are some premade graphics for it. The only thing you need to worry about regarding having more than one set of roads, is really that engineers can only build one type of road...


In a game where the entire war was forecast to last a single month I don't see engineers building roads.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 38
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 1:59:03 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

How did I get AT graphics instead of ATG? Will these play in ATG? I'm assuming they will since they are working on my machine and I've never owned AT.

Good Hunting.

MR


The editor defaults to use the AT graphics. It won´t affect a thing. They just look different.

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Post #: 39
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 2:01:12 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

I am also wanting to change some of the basic factors for things. Like the fact that a village can have unlimited air unit stacking....um, no.

If I understand it correctly if I make it where they are set by me it wipes out all the preset factors. Is that right?

Good Hunting.

MR


If you go into the editor and change the air stack values for each location type, then it will of course affect the ones you placed on the map.... if that was your question.

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Post #: 40
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 3:07:24 PM   
Bombur

 

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Status: offline 		But it´s possible to edit the setup files to start the editor using the ATG files. I will send you the file.

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Post #: 41
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 3:23:26 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bombur
But it´s possible to edit the setup files to start the editor using the ATG files. I will send you the file.


Yeah, it is possible but, with the maps in this advanced state of progress, switching to those might mean alot of lost work. Of course it never hurts to change the setup files, so that future maps are ATG ones...

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Post #: 42
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 4:36:00 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 10238
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Status: offline 		So, there are no light woods in ATG? I don't want to lose that terrain feature.

What would be the reason to go to ATG graphics?

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 7:30:49 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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Status: offline 		Well basically if you ask me, they look better, they are more smoothe, and pleasing to the eye...

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Post #: 44
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 8:54:39 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 10238
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From: Texas
Status: offline 		With less graphics?

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 45
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 9:26:06 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 1078
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		To be fair, they have basically the same terrain options, as i recall, but when it comes to forrests there are 2 types in AT terrain, light and heavy, while in ATG terrain there are 3 types of forrests: jungle, loaf and pine.

The cities look better, and there are options for making suburban terrain as well... but other than that, its not all that different.

If you want to upgrade your terrains/maps looks you might use the graphics provided by the Realist Mod. It is very nice, and has the same types of terrains as the map you are working on now, making a transfer something you can basically just import.

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Post #: 46
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 9:28:00 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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Status: offline 		My point is this however: Before making a map you should always try and figure out which graphics you want to use. Since you are beyond this point, your only real option is to keep the map, or make a completely new one.

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Post #: 47
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 10:02:55 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 10238
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From: Texas
Status: offline 		This comes up. Nowhere does it say to pick AT graphics.

Good Hunting.

MR




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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 7/8/2012 10:03:15 PM >

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Post #: 48
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 10:03:49 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 10238
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Status: offline 		So I choose ATG Graphics. Now you tell me that's not what I have.

Looks like it's about time to completely start over. Again, not the most friendly editor I've ever used.

Good Hunting.

MR




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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 7/8/2012 10:05:04 PM >

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RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 10:07:07 PM   
Mad Russian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

My point is this however: Before making a map you should always try and figure out which graphics you want to use. Since you are beyond this point, your only real option is to keep the map, or make a completely new one.


My point is this; considering the amount of documentation for ATG, that would be "NONE", how is a designer supposed to figure out anything other than by trial and error or by reading through a dozen old AT tutorials?

And those following along with this build process didn't say anything until the map was at this stage...so, here we are.

If I need to be able to mod graphics etc to get different types of woods and roads, that's not happening. I've known for some time now that I'm not a modder.

I can make decent scenarios, if some of those leaving reviews are to be believed, but I can't draw stick figures. So, either we can make this map with what comes in the game or we can't. Which is it?


Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 7/8/2012 10:11:27 PM >

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Post #: 50
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 10:24:49 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 1078
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		You are learning the same way i learned. I am not part of any design team, that gets paid, so while i understand your frustration, please don´t take it out on me, i am just the messenger.

I´ve been working with the ATG / AT editor for quite a while, and even I don´t know everything, and can learn a thing or two, or sometimes even more. I found that the best way to learn was to fiddle with things, and go into already existing scenarios and find out how they did it.

I cannot defend the way the editor is set to default using the AT graphics, but i can say this, there are options out there. Some are very easy to implement. For instance using the Realist map options is just a question of importing those with the import tools that comes with the game. That is pretty automatic. In the old days you would have to change each graphic type manualy.

The ATG editor, and that of AT is incredibly powerful. And that is witnessed by the many scenarios that are already built. If you want to build scenarios, you will learn to live with it, and help alleviate the problem for others, like i am doing by telling you how things work, and what mistakes you are making.

As someone who has "translated" at least one scenario (European diplomacy) from AT to ATG, I can tell you that translating a map from one system to the other is very complex. Heck i ended up opening two versions of ATG, and drawing the map all over.

You may want to stop up and just be alittle bit glad that someone who cares for the game, wants to sit down and help you with your scenario building process....


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Post #: 51
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 10:29:00 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 10238
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From: Texas
Status: offline 		It looks like I have 3 tree selections as well. Light, Heavy and Tropical. I would think that amounts to the same thing.

Good Hunting.

MR




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< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 7/8/2012 10:40:22 PM >

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RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 10:36:03 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 10238
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

You are learning the same way i learned. I am not part of any design team, that gets paid, so while i understand your frustration, please don´t take it out on me, i am just the messenger.

I´ve been working with the ATG / AT editor for quite a while, and even I don´t know everything, and can learn a thing or two, or sometimes even more. I found that the best way to learn was to fiddle with things, and go into already existing scenarios and find out how they did it.

I cannot defend the way the editor is set to default using the AT graphics, but i can say this, there are options out there. Some are very easy to implement. For instance using the Realist map options is just a question of importing those with the import tools that comes with the game. That is pretty automatic. In the old days you would have to change each graphic type manualy.

The ATG editor, and that of AT is incredibly powerful. And that is witnessed by the many scenarios that are already built. If you want to build scenarios, you will learn to live with it, and help alleviate the problem for others, like i am doing by telling you how things work, and what mistakes you are making.

As someone who has "translated" at least one scenario (European diplomacy) from AT to ATG, I can tell you that translating a map from one system to the other is very complex. Heck i ended up opening two versions of ATG, and drawing the map all over.

You may want to stop up and just be alittle bit glad that someone who cares for the game, wants to sit down and help you with your scenario building process....




Don't misunderstand my comments.

I'm certainly glad that there are those that are willing to help. It's just that when the ones that are helping say to me, "Oh, well, you should have decided before you started which graphics set you are using" and as in my case, the person has no idea there are more than one graphics set in the game it does get a bit frustrating.

Information an entire map into a 5 map project is much better than someone saying to me 3 or 4 maps later...hmmm...you shouldn't be using those graphics.

I am very good at taking screen shots. I can transfer a map very quickly. If there is a need for it.

If not, and that's what I'm trying to determine from the few posts I'm getting that explain what it is you know, then I'll not only leave it as it is but expand it by 4 more maps.

I'm certainly not trying to shoot the messenger. Just trying to understand what the message is and to get the information in a timely enough manner to make good use of the message when I do get it.

The other thing is, if I have to completely learn this editor by trial and error, I'll move on to another game with an editor that has documentation showing how it works. Nothing against you, or the others that have learned AT/ATG the hard way, but I don't have time for that "Steep Learning Curve" approach.

Good Hunting.

MR



< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 7/8/2012 10:40:00 PM >

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RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/8/2012 11:01:07 PM   
Mad Russian


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Status: offline 		So, here we are.

The question is, is it worth it to start over and redo the map using the ATG graphics? Put another way, if you were doing this would you redo the map at this point right now? Why?

I need an educated reason for either going ahead or starting again.

My own gut feeling is to start again and use the ATG graphics because going forward they will be used by the game system probably longer than the AT graphics.

Thanks ahead of time.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 7/8/2012 11:17:40 PM >

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RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/9/2012 12:57:33 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

So, here we are.

The question is, is it worth it to start over and redo the map using the ATG graphics? Put another way, if you were doing this would you redo the map at this point right now? Why?

I need an educated reason for either going ahead or starting again.

My own gut feeling is to start again and use the ATG graphics because going forward they will be used by the game system probably longer than the AT graphics.

Thanks ahead of time.

Good Hunting.

MR


Well, like i said a few posts ago. I don´t think you should start over. If you find that you don´t like the current graphics you are using, i would use the realist mod graphics, that come with the game and are used by World at War by tweber. You can simply transfer them using the option in setng. However if you want the graphics that the game uses for all the new scenarios that came with the game, and not the old AT ones. Then you will need to change, and redo the map.

Personally i like the realist map ones more than the new ATG graphics. But i think it is only a matter of taste.

As for them being compatible later down the line... It really depends on if the next version of ATG, AT Platinium or whatever, is going to be like. I have no idea if Vic will make it backwards compatible. But I think there are a few years to go before that happens anyway.

So starting over would not be my choice... but Its really up to you... what i can do is perhaps show you the difference in the graphics. But i think it would be easier for you to study them yourself.

If you want to see the ATG Graphics, just load up my hispaniola scenario, from the scenario bank, or the European Diplomacy Redux. If you want to see the Realist graphics load up the GD 1938 scenario that you can find in the scenario bank.

Incidently you are going to be modding your scenario to be something else than ATG anyway. Modding doesn´t have to be graphical. It can be unit wise too... The Bombur Mod is all about units.

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Post #: 55
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/9/2012 1:00:44 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

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Status: offline 		I think, now that i have looked over your map, that i would stay with the AT graphics. Light forests are something that is represented on the map you are using originally and ATG graphics simply don´t have that.

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Post #: 56
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/9/2012 1:12:34 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 1078
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I made a little screenshot detailing how to get Realist mod graphics into a standard AT graphics scenario.

This does however NOT work if the graphics used are ATG graphics. Realist Graphics where developed especially with AT in mind.




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RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/9/2012 1:14:19 AM   
junk2drive


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Status: offline 		I don't have AT or ATG but know MR well. I think he wants the terrain modifiers to be like light woods, woods and heavy woods and doesn't care what they look like graphically as long as the player can distinguish them visually.

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Post #: 58
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/9/2012 1:23:56 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 1078
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I may have been hasty in my description of the Landscape types that ATG graphics allow.

Here is a list:
Plains
Sea
Fields
Forest Pine
Swamp
Low Mountains
High Mountains
Urban
Suburban
Capitol
Forrest Load
Forrest Jungle
Mud (seveal types)
Snow (several types)
Dessert (several types)
N/A
Special Graphics (not sure i know what they do)
Sea (rainy) (in case you want to simulate a storm i think)
Paddies
Air Background (not sure what this does)
Fortification
Fortress


All in all: 49 LandscapeTypes

In Realist/Normal AT its different. There are fewer.

They are:
Plains
Sea
Light Forest
Heavy Forest
Swamp
Low Mountains
High Mountains
Urban
Fortification
Fortress

As can be seen there are only 9.

Also in standard AT there are only 3 city location types. While in ATG there are 5 city location types.

This makes importing maps from one to the other very hard.

(in reply to ernieschwitz)
Post #: 59
RE: ATG Basic Tutorial Questions_Central Front - 7/9/2012 1:30:27 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
I don't have AT or ATG but know MR well. I think he wants the terrain modifiers to be like light woods, woods and heavy woods and doesn't care what they look like graphically as long as the player can distinguish them visually.


If he just wants light woods, and heavy woods, then AT graphics will do just fine. If he wants to distinguish between different kinds of woods, but doesn´t care if they are light or heavy i would recommend ATG graphics.

Obviously my oppinion would be different if he wanted to use fields, desserts and suburban terrain, which are also options available in the ATG graphics but not in the AT ones.

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Post #: 60
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