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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar

 
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RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/7/2012 7:39:54 AM   
Nikademus


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From: Alien spacecraft
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sandman455


As for skip bomb being some kind of replacement for torpedo bombing; absolutely not. Totally different targets and mission requirements. Heh, you don't want to get me going on skip bombing again. Just search the forums for that thread. And after reading and digesting all that skip bombing literature that was offered up. . .

I'm even more confident about everything I posted on the subject.


agreed. Skip bombing evolved during the war due to a specific need, one of which was the absence of plentiful torpedoes and the training that goes along with making said attacks.

The aspect to keep in mind (IMO of course) is that pre-war, airpower in general vs. warships was still largely theoretical and there were disputing thoughts on it's worth, value and the best means to attack. As a weapon, the torpedo had merit, it was and remained through WWII the deadliest threat vs even the most heavily protected warship because of it's nature. But torpedoes were expensive to build and expensive to maintain. Successful delivery of the ordinance required specific training and increased the vulnerability of the delivery platform.

Bombing was not seen in general as a magic bullet, but with developments like the Norden, it could be advertised that regular iron bombs could be used adequately for cheaper cost both in terms of delivery and safety for the delivery platform, allowing repeat performance....in other words more bang for the buck.

The Japanese embraced torpedo land based aircraft because it was seen as a cheaper means of furthering along the goal of winning a decisive naval battle using the traditional weapon....the surface ship. With an advocate like Yamamoto, it was developed. Some within the Italian military saw similar value but due to cost and limited resources it got a later start (after war began) The Americans saw the level bomber using high alt tactics as a theoretical better means of defense and the country was rich enough to indulge as the Navy still had the dominant role in projecting US power across the ocean. After war came, the emergence of larger and larger air projection ability made the question largely moot. Torp, bomb, or Kamakaze, enemy forces would have to wade through increasingly huge air defenses to try to obtain their goals.

The UK's budget concious industry focused on air power along continental lines (vs. the Japanese who's interests were more maritime given the geography of the Pacific. ) The Germans embraced torpedo armed land based aircraft enough to purchase up to 1/2 of Italian torpedo production for it's own air force, a factor that helped limit the RA's own efforts ironically. Eventually the Allies also developed some limited torp lugging aspects. Why not more pursued? simply by mid war the increasing preponderance of Allied air power made it superfluous. Add to that the increasingly crushing naval superiority, backed by increased fighter defenses. The Germans resorted to the next step, semi-guided missiles which combine elements of bomb and torpedo technlogy.

The Japanese emphasis is often portrayed as a failure but a reason for this was logistical and command level decision making. They didn't have the resources to make distant bases more formidable in the shorter time frame and compounded the problem with some rash decisions that exposed their limited resources to futile/long shot attacks. It is also true that the USN avoided when possible placing themselves at harm's risk until they had the mobile and land based air defenses to minimize the risk, while at the same time Japanese training and numbers dwindled.

Despite pioneering work in the field of land based torpedo air attack, the Italians were late starters to the game but quickly made up for lost ground. It should be noted though that their combat environment was less air intensive which allowed them to score better in terms of numbers, coupled with the a more constricted geography and a need to expose convoys to air attack in conjunction with German air and Italian based naval attacks. The RA never had to face for example a air TF concentration of the likes of TF-38/58 flying mass numbers of Hellcats.

Thus the Apples and Oranges comparison. This also applies to the Swordfish analogy. Can one compare small numbers of unescorted Swordfish attacking singular targets like Bismarck to the less stormy Pacific battles involving whole TF's and larger numbers of carrier based fighters?

By the same token.....envisioning mass skip bombing attacks, especially by large 4E's on a mobile naval combat TF in the open ocean based on battles like the Bismarck Sea slaughter.....don't hold up as well under such scrutiny.

Then again maybe its all bunk. Arm a bunch of seaplanes with torps, with a few Lysanders equipped with mini-TallBoy bombs. anything goes.

< Message edited by Nikademus -- 7/7/2012 7:41:03 AM >

(in reply to sandman455)
Post #: 121
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/7/2012 11:22:10 AM   
spence

 

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I mentioned the Swordfish because by December 7th the RN had been actively using their carriers in real combat operations for better than a year. In that time they spent quite a lot of time sailing their carriers under the wings of both the Luftwaffe and the Regia Aeronautica. Their attack planes (principally Swordfish) had inflicted immense damage on the fleets of their enemies.

The point is that their planes were mostly obsolete and few in number but they survived and accomplished a great deal. Yet this game provides the RN with carrier air groups with pilots whose experiences are in the 40s and low 50s who can't defend their carriers from an IJN CVE attack group and who "can't hit a bull in the butt with a bass fiddle".

IRL they did not fight the KB. That is probably a good thing. Certainly with their small numbers of obsolete/obsolescent a/c a day fight would be a massacre for the Japanese. But they did have some night fighting capability AND EXPERIENCE that the KB did not have.


(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 122
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/7/2012 2:20:32 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1620
Joined: 2/19/2008
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the dud rate of the Mark 13 is too small

I once read a good description of the mark 13


"the Mark 13 had to be dropped from below 100 miles per hour at below 100 feet"

even with a successful launch, the Mark 13 was likely to explode on contact with the water, break in two, or propel itself towards the ocean floor"


Play the "slaughter of the lambs" scenario in AOTP and you can understand why the USN/USAAF steered away from torpedoes (though did not give up on them completely)


Plus the USN had those planes called the dauntless..


But still, regardless of their innnovations, the lack of a long range torpedo plane (not to mention the quality of torpedo that was the Type 91), was a major flaw in the allied air force - wonder if the change in japanese battleship doctrine (the kongos at santa cruz for example) was a result of such observations, or if the IJN even knew about the flaws of the mark 13 at all


_____________________________

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(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 123
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/7/2012 3:56:49 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 5987
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/now in Israel
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


the dud rate of the Mark 13 is too small

I once read a good description of the mark 13


"the Mark 13 had to be dropped from below 100 miles per hour at below 100 feet"

even with a successful launch, the Mark 13 was likely to explode on contact with the water, break in two, or propel itself towards the ocean floor"


Play the "slaughter of the lambs" scenario in AOTP and you can understand why the USN/USAAF steered away from torpedoes (though did not give up on them completely)


Plus the USN had those planes called the dauntless..


But still, regardless of their innnovations, the lack of a long range torpedo plane (not to mention the quality of torpedo that was the Type 91), was a major flaw in the allied air force - wonder if the change in japanese battleship doctrine (the kongos at santa cruz for example) was a result of such observations, or if the IJN even knew about the flaws of the mark 13 at all




Well..it evolved:

By late 1944, the design had been modified to allow reliable drops from as high as 2,400 ft (730 m), at speeds up to 410 knots (760 km/h).

and

At the close of the war, the Mark 13 was considered one of the most reliable air-dropped torpedoes available.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)
Post #: 124
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/7/2012 4:17:47 PM   
Onime No Kyo


Posts: 16628
Joined: 4/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: sandman455


As for skip bomb being some kind of replacement for torpedo bombing; absolutely not. Totally different targets and mission requirements. Heh, you don't want to get me going on skip bombing again. Just search the forums for that thread. And after reading and digesting all that skip bombing literature that was offered up. . .

I'm even more confident about everything I posted on the subject.


agreed. Skip bombing evolved during the war due to a specific need, one of which was the absence of plentiful torpedoes and the training that goes along with making said attacks.

The aspect to keep in mind (IMO of course) is that pre-war, airpower in general vs. warships was still largely theoretical and there were disputing thoughts on it's worth, value and the best means to attack. As a weapon, the torpedo had merit, it was and remained through WWII the deadliest threat vs even the most heavily protected warship because of it's nature. But torpedoes were expensive to build and expensive to maintain. Successful delivery of the ordinance required specific training and increased the vulnerability of the delivery platform.

Bombing was not seen in general as a magic bullet, but with developments like the Norden, it could be advertised that regular iron bombs could be used adequately for cheaper cost both in terms of delivery and safety for the delivery platform, allowing repeat performance....in other words more bang for the buck.

The Japanese embraced torpedo land based aircraft because it was seen as a cheaper means of furthering along the goal of winning a decisive naval battle using the traditional weapon....the surface ship. With an advocate like Yamamoto, it was developed. Some within the Italian military saw similar value but due to cost and limited resources it got a later start (after war began) The Americans saw the level bomber using high alt tactics as a theoretical better means of defense and the country was rich enough to indulge as the Navy still had the dominant role in projecting US power across the ocean. After war came, the emergence of larger and larger air projection ability made the question largely moot. Torp, bomb, or Kamakaze, enemy forces would have to wade through increasingly huge air defenses to try to obtain their goals.

The UK's budget concious industry focused on air power along continental lines (vs. the Japanese who's interests were more maritime given the geography of the Pacific. ) The Germans embraced torpedo armed land based aircraft enough to purchase up to 1/2 of Italian torpedo production for it's own air force, a factor that helped limit the RA's own efforts ironically. Eventually the Allies also developed some limited torp lugging aspects. Why not more pursued? simply by mid war the increasing preponderance of Allied air power made it superfluous. Add to that the increasingly crushing naval superiority, backed by increased fighter defenses. The Germans resorted to the next step, semi-guided missiles which combine elements of bomb and torpedo technlogy.

The Japanese emphasis is often portrayed as a failure but a reason for this was logistical and command level decision making. They didn't have the resources to make distant bases more formidable in the shorter time frame and compounded the problem with some rash decisions that exposed their limited resources to futile/long shot attacks. It is also true that the USN avoided when possible placing themselves at harm's risk until they had the mobile and land based air defenses to minimize the risk, while at the same time Japanese training and numbers dwindled.

Despite pioneering work in the field of land based torpedo air attack, the Italians were late starters to the game but quickly made up for lost ground. It should be noted though that their combat environment was less air intensive which allowed them to score better in terms of numbers, coupled with the a more constricted geography and a need to expose convoys to air attack in conjunction with German air and Italian based naval attacks. The RA never had to face for example a air TF concentration of the likes of TF-38/58 flying mass numbers of Hellcats.

Thus the Apples and Oranges comparison. This also applies to the Swordfish analogy. Can one compare small numbers of unescorted Swordfish attacking singular targets like Bismarck to the less stormy Pacific battles involving whole TF's and larger numbers of carrier based fighters?

By the same token.....envisioning mass skip bombing attacks, especially by large 4E's on a mobile naval combat TF in the open ocean based on battles like the Bismarck Sea slaughter.....don't hold up as well under such scrutiny.

Then again maybe its all bunk. Arm a bunch of seaplanes with torps, with a few Lysanders equipped with mini-TallBoy bombs. anything goes.


Very good explanation, Nik. Thank you.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 125
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/7/2012 5:29:44 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
And what's the name of a B-25?


Dunno. How do you say 'target' in Japanese?


B-25 MITCHELL CB!

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 126
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/7/2012 5:42:52 PM   
AW1Steve


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I have a suggestion as to why the Army didn't use torpedo bombing more.No evidence, no 10,000 documents of obscure studies, just what seems to me to be common sense. The primary torpedo bomber of the USAAF's was the B-26. The B-26 was a VERY hot aircraft, that the Army insisted on giving to inexperinced pilots. (Look up the Truman investigation into "Martin's miscarriage" that proppelled Truman into national attention and eventually the White House). If the Army couldn't bring it'self to give B-26's to more experinced pilots , or give such pilots enough training to survive level bombimg attacks , why would they take the time to train pilots in a skill that the Army probably figured it wouldn't use very much?

Sooooooo.......my contention is that B-26's were completely compatible with and able to conduct torpedo attacks, but the pilots were not. And if SOMEONE had made a conscious decision to properly train them, it could have been a effective weapon. But that did not fit in with the USAAF's "bomber mafia's" plans and their mania for strategic bombing. Torpedo bombing was a totally different skill set and detracted from level bombing.And B-26's were soon pulled out of the Pacific anyway.

Just my own theory.

< Message edited by AW1Steve -- 7/7/2012 5:43:25 PM >


_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 127
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/7/2012 6:01:00 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 5987
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/now in Israel
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I have a suggestion as to why the Army didn't use torpedo bombing more.No evidence, no 10,000 documents of obscure studies, just what seems to me to be common sense. The primary torpedo bomber of the USAAF's was the B-26. The B-26 was a VERY hot aircraft, that the Army insisted on giving to inexperinced pilots. (Look up the Truman investigation into "Martin's miscarriage" that proppelled Truman into national attention and eventually the White House). If the Army couldn't bring it'self to give B-26's to more experinced pilots , or give such pilots enough training to survive level bombimg attacks , why would they take the time to train pilots in a skill that the Army probably figured it wouldn't use very much?

Sooooooo.......my contention is that B-26's were completely compatible with and able to conduct torpedo attacks, but the pilots were not. And if SOMEONE had made a conscious decision to properly train them, it could have been a effective weapon. But that did not fit in with the USAAF's "bomber mafia's" plans and their mania for strategic bombing. Torpedo bombing was a totally different skill set and detracted from level bombing.And B-26's were soon pulled out of the Pacific anyway.

Just my own theory.


I have special attachment to Martin "Murderer"

It was brilliant decision to dedicate B-26 to Europe (with good airfields) and B-25 to Pacific (with bad airfields).

B-26 was apparently better attack bomber...but it required really good and experienced pilot..and good airfields.

Anecdotes from "Fire in the Sky":

"One a day in Tampa Bay" (referring to training accidents)
"Flying Prostitute" (no visible means of support)
"When you lost engine during take-off with B-25, you'd most likely pull it off...with B-26 you were dead, unless very good."

and

"When we'd hit Rabaul with B-25s, we might lose 3-5 planes..with B-26s, we'd lose none or maybe one."






_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 128
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/7/2012 7:40:31 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17993
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I have a suggestion as to why the Army didn't use torpedo bombing more.No evidence, no 10,000 documents of obscure studies, just what seems to me to be common sense. The primary torpedo bomber of the USAAF's was the B-26. The B-26 was a VERY hot aircraft, that the Army insisted on giving to inexperinced pilots. (Look up the Truman investigation into "Martin's miscarriage" that proppelled Truman into national attention and eventually the White House). If the Army couldn't bring it'self to give B-26's to more experinced pilots , or give such pilots enough training to survive level bombimg attacks , why would they take the time to train pilots in a skill that the Army probably figured it wouldn't use very much?

Sooooooo.......my contention is that B-26's were completely compatible with and able to conduct torpedo attacks, but the pilots were not. And if SOMEONE had made a conscious decision to properly train them, it could have been a effective weapon. But that did not fit in with the USAAF's "bomber mafia's" plans and their mania for strategic bombing. Torpedo bombing was a totally different skill set and detracted from level bombing.And B-26's were soon pulled out of the Pacific anyway.

Just my own theory.


Apparently the stall speed of the B-26 was, according to this URL (http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/worldwariiaircraft/p/World-War-Ii-Martin-B-26-Marauder.htm), 120 MPH.

Due to the B-26's small wings and high loading, the aircraft had a relatively high landing speed of between 120 and 135 mph as well as a stall speed of around 120 mph.

If the operational window of the torpedo was only appropriate below the stall speed of the aircraft, that's a pretty good reason why air-dropped torpedoes weren't appropriate for these USAAF bombers.

The Mk. 13 remained a 'slow launch' torpedo until much later in the war. It doesn't seem that an air-launched torpedo had been developed for it that could be used without stalling out the aircraft a few feet above sea level (certain death for the crew)

_____________________________


(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 129
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/7/2012 11:55:01 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12872
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I have a suggestion as to why the Army didn't use torpedo bombing more.No evidence, no 10,000 documents of obscure studies, just what seems to me to be common sense. The primary torpedo bomber of the USAAF's was the B-26. The B-26 was a VERY hot aircraft, that the Army insisted on giving to inexperinced pilots. (Look up the Truman investigation into "Martin's miscarriage" that proppelled Truman into national attention and eventually the White House). If the Army couldn't bring it'self to give B-26's to more experinced pilots , or give such pilots enough training to survive level bombimg attacks , why would they take the time to train pilots in a skill that the Army probably figured it wouldn't use very much?

Sooooooo.......my contention is that B-26's were completely compatible with and able to conduct torpedo attacks, but the pilots were not. And if SOMEONE had made a conscious decision to properly train them, it could have been a effective weapon. But that did not fit in with the USAAF's "bomber mafia's" plans and their mania for strategic bombing. Torpedo bombing was a totally different skill set and detracted from level bombing.And B-26's were soon pulled out of the Pacific anyway.

Just my own theory.


Apparently the stall speed of the B-26 was, according to this URL (http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/worldwariiaircraft/p/World-War-Ii-Martin-B-26-Marauder.htm), 120 MPH.

Due to the B-26's small wings and high loading, the aircraft had a relatively high landing speed of between 120 and 135 mph as well as a stall speed of around 120 mph.

If the operational window of the torpedo was only appropriate below the stall speed of the aircraft, that's a pretty good reason why air-dropped torpedoes weren't appropriate for these USAAF bombers.

The Mk. 13 remained a 'slow launch' torpedo until much later in the war. It doesn't seem that an air-launched torpedo had been developed for it that could be used without stalling out the aircraft a few feet above sea level (certain death for the crew)



My 1st thought was..."That's what spoilers and flaps are for"...But I think we need to talk to a B-26 pilot. I'll see if I can find one.

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 130
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/8/2012 12:49:20 AM   
AW1Steve


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WOW....just doing a little research says we'd need to do an a lot to even begin to nail this down. It appears that the Army specs required the plan to be able to preform torpedo attacks from the begining. Supposedly the B-26a could carry an internal fish, but I can't find which model.The B-26's at Midway , from the 22nd and 35th BG's were B-26B's , which had longer wings and bigger tails for more stability and better handling.

I've found an account where VT-13 tested Mk 13's , operating under extremes succesfully , such as 280kts (which must have been quite a trick in a TBM/TBF, requiring a dive!) and as high as 800 feet! (That is to say , operating , working,functional torpedos. Obviously you could drop from 20,000 if you don't mind the fish hitting the water and turning into a million parts!).

My gut feeling is that B-26's , with well trained crews , could do this , but the USAAF really wasn't that hot on the idea. And the USN wasn't all that hot on landbased naval air strike forces. I would expect that the USMC , if anyone , would take this and run with it.....

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 131
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/8/2012 12:49:49 AM   
spence

 

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The thread purports to be about EARLY WAR ALLIED CVs. The Brits had a decent aerial torpedo and plenty of COMBAT EXPERIENCE which caused LOTS OF SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE to the enemy naval forces prior to Pearl Harbor. If someone can present evidence that there was some sort of wholesale change amongst the aircrews of the RN carrier groups in late 1941 or early 1942 then the ratings given to the RN carrier groups might be justified. No one has so far.

The RN carrier air groups were small and mainly flew obsolete aircraft...no question about that. In a stand up daytime fight with the KB pretty much any conglomeration of RN carriers would have come out 2nd best. But such a result was fore-ordained only because the RN had such small air groups and such obsolete/obsolescent aircraft. However it would seem that the RN torpedo bombers were quite capable of inflicting significant damage on any Japanese ship that crossed their path and doing so during a part of the day that the Japanese were entirely incapable of responding effectively to.

Admiral Somerville CHOSE not to fight the IJN KB head on but he did not choose to not fight them at all under any circumstances. The ratings given the RN air groups make such a decision not to fight the only rational one for an Allied Player. It seems to me that the choice should lie with the Allied Player, not with a game system that pretty much fore-ordains the result of any attempt to even fight the KB or the mini-KB.

It seems to me that the IJN Player has many strategic opportunities presented to him only because the numbers have been juggled to permit it without risk.
From Day ONE everything the IJN did was a risk...they got away with it but it was not because they deserved it.

BTW I'd be happy to get shellacked by great play.


< Message edited by spence -- 7/8/2012 12:51:08 AM >

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 132
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/8/2012 12:50:22 AM   
AW1Steve


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So does anyone have any idea what I'm doing wrong in trying to mod this so that I can "play" with the Idea of an "American Betty"?

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 133
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/8/2012 2:39:48 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I've found an account where VT-13 tested Mk 13's , operating under extremes succesfully , such as 280kts (which must have been quite a trick in a TBM/TBF, requiring a dive!) and as high as 800 feet!


Link? Would be an interesting read.

_____________________________


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Post #: 134
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/8/2012 5:18:38 AM   
msieving1


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From: Missouri
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I've found an account where VT-13 tested Mk 13's , operating under extremes succesfully , such as 280kts (which must have been quite a trick in a TBM/TBF, requiring a dive!) and as high as 800 feet!


Link? Would be an interesting read.


It's in Barrett Tillman's book TBF/TBM Avenger Units of World War 2.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 135
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/8/2012 4:12:38 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12872
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
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quote:

ORIGINAL: msieving1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
I've found an account where VT-13 tested Mk 13's , operating under extremes succesfully , such as 280kts (which must have been quite a trick in a TBM/TBF, requiring a dive!) and as high as 800 feet!


Link? Would be an interesting read.


It's in Barrett Tillman's book TBF/TBM Avenger Units of World War 2.



Thanks. Yes, that's were I found it (as a quote). I've ordered the book to read "the rest of the story".

_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to msieving1)
Post #: 136
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/8/2012 7:59:35 PM   
oldman45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Just for the heck of it, I looked at the B-26 in the editor. It lists the plane as carrying a torpedo. I tried to see if I could set up the plane so that torpedo's were optional. I set it to naval attack (1k feet). And in the editor I reclassified it as a torpedo plane. And I sent it to San Diego where the Air HQ was given 20 torpedos. No joy. So obviously there is more involved.


Not having access to the game right now, Did you figure out why the B-26 could not load the torp?

_____________________________


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Post #: 137
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/8/2012 8:18:38 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Just for the heck of it, I looked at the B-26 in the editor. It lists the plane as carrying a torpedo. I tried to see if I could set up the plane so that torpedo's were optional. I set it to naval attack (1k feet). And in the editor I reclassified it as a torpedo plane. And I sent it to San Diego where the Air HQ was given 20 torpedos. No joy. So obviously there is more involved.


Not having access to the game right now, Did you figure out why the B-26 could not load the torp?

Nope. I changed the squadron to torpedo too. I'm out of ideas.

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Post #: 138
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/9/2012 4:51:10 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

So does anyone have any idea what I'm doing wrong in trying to mod this so that I can "play" with the Idea of an "American Betty"?




Your having trouble creating a US 2E bomber in the editor that's primary AS armament is a torpedo?

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Post #: 139
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/9/2012 6:40:01 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

So does anyone have any idea what I'm doing wrong in trying to mod this so that I can "play" with the Idea of an "American Betty"?




Your having trouble creating a US 2E bomber in the editor that's primary AS armament is a torpedo?


I am having trouble getting one to carry a torpedo in ANY form. Level,attack,torpedo or what ever. Even though it's already listed as being able to carry one.

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Post #: 140
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/9/2012 7:30:13 PM   
icepharmy

 

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The Japanese Peggy and Peggy (T) are absolutely the same - they both are level bombers, no stats are changed only torpedo ordnance is different. Either its hardcoded or based on the torpedo.

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Post #: 141
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/9/2012 7:34:28 PM   
LowCommand

 

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As I remember (I’m too lazy to look for sources right now) the B-26 was shipped with adaptors for 2 torpedoes (although the adapters had a tendency to get lost.) They did get used early war at Midway and against the diversionary attack in the Aleutians. There the Japanese had the rare joy of seeing a torpedo pass completely over a CVL due to the very rough weather. The B-26 went MIA.

The B-26 was judged unsuited for Pacific service because the B-25 operated out of rough fields much better. The B-26 also “mushed down” during a dive recovery, making it less than ideal for low level attacks. The B-25J used by the Navy was equipped for torpedo attacks.

The B-26 was faster and had slightly longer range than the B-25. It had a high enough speed (especially when in a shallow dive running after a bombing attack) that Zeros were confined to rear attacks. Note that most of the B-26s that attacked during Midway made it home. One fell apart on the runway, but did make it home, despite attacks by dozens of Zeros.

The Army Air Corps didn’t use torpedoes much because:

Ours didn’t work well at the start

They are finicky things requiring lots of maintenance. They don’t like mud, dirt and rough fields. That pretty much describes the all the Pacific airfields. Bombs don’t much care.

As noted above, once our torpedoes really started working there weren’t many targets.

Torpedo attacks require different tactics than bomb attacks. Given the poor Stateside training and total exhaustion In Theater, there wasn’t any time to practice such things.



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Post #: 142
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/9/2012 7:51:42 PM   
AW1Steve


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"They are finicky things requiring lots of maintenance. They don’t like mud, dirt and rough fields. That pretty much describes the all the Pacific airfields"..... And these are the same people who thought a P-39 was a really good idea to operate out of jungle airstrips?
Let's take an airplane with the most complex transmission system ever put into an aircraft and operate it without hangers or paved strips, and work on it in the open with an a-frame. Let's face it. The Army bombing mafia was dedicated to bombing. They may have used the "torpedo bomber" concept to sell the plane to an isolationist public (the same way they sold the B-17 as a "Destroyer of fleets"), but once the war started, they just didn't want to do it. Kind of like a lazy teenager. Let the Navy sink ships.

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Post #: 143
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/9/2012 11:38:36 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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Well the Russians operated P-39s is conditions that would have made the designers stare in bewilderment. And they kept up a pretty good service rate doing it too. I think that bird is tougher than you give it credit for.

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Post #: 144
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/10/2012 12:15:42 AM   
spence

 

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In the latter years of WWII, U.S. aerial torpedoes were fitted with plywood fixtures on both the nose and the tail. These were fashioned in the "ship's carpenters shop" and consisted of a plywood box fitted around the tail/propellors and a round plywood nose ring that fitted over the front of the torpedo. The tail fixture assured a proper angle of entry into the water. The nose ring helped with the same function during freefall and also protected the nose during water entry. Both fixtures were designed to break away as the torpedo entered the water. With these fixtures fitted the Mark 13 could be launched at speeds over 250 mph and altitudes up to 800 feet. Needless to say that was a considerable improvement over the launch parameters enjoyed by Torpedo 8. However, although the USN tested its medium bomber types as torpedo bombers it decided that in the main the missions desired could be accomplished just as well using bombs from low altitude.





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 145
b-26 tb tried at midway - 7/12/2012 7:43:22 PM   
icepharmy

 

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http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS/IJO/IJO-2.html

Q. Do you know of any ships which may have been hit by torpedoes from B-26's or PBY's?
A. Not a hit in those days of the battle on the carrier formation.

Q. Were you attacked with torpedoes on the morning of the battle of 4 June?
A. About an hour after sunrise, we were attacked by torpedo bombers.

Q. Were they single or twin-engined?
A. Mostly they were twin-engined, none of them hit. They were dropped at very great range and we were able to avoid them.

Q. Do you know if one of the twin-engined planes, after dropping the torpedo, flew into the deck of one of the carriers?
A. No, I was observing and know that did not happen.

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Post #: 146
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/13/2012 12:14:20 AM   
spence

 

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Not sure what your Q&A series is supposed to accomplish. If it is that history shows that none of the 12 B-26s which actually dropped torpedoes (or attacked IJN CVs with torpedoes) scored a hit; is not in dispute. If it is that none of the B-26s could have possibly have scored a hit then that is a different question.
From my experience the IJN attack on Pearl Harbor has been enhanced by a factor of around 3 and so far there has been little complaint from the IJN fanboys about how overwhelming such a result is.

It is too bad that the Allied Player has not been allowed to explore the possibilities of torpedo attack against the IJN. But since IRL the IJN doctrine proved to be pretty much a failure why would the Allied Player wish to indulge the same fantasy?

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Post #: 147
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/13/2012 12:42:33 AM   
JeffK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

WOW....just doing a little research says we'd need to do an a lot to even begin to nail this down. It appears that the Army specs required the plan to be able to preform torpedo attacks from the begining. Supposedly the B-26a could carry an internal fish, but I can't find which model.The B-26's at Midway , from the 22nd and 35th BG's were B-26B's , which had longer wings and bigger tails for more stability and better handling.

I've found an account where VT-13 tested Mk 13's , operating under extremes succesfully , such as 280kts (which must have been quite a trick in a TBM/TBF, requiring a dive!) and as high as 800 feet! (That is to say , operating , working,functional torpedos. Obviously you could drop from 20,000 if you don't mind the fish hitting the water and turning into a million parts!).

My gut feeling is that B-26's , with well trained crews , could do this , but the USAAF really wasn't that hot on the idea. And the USN wasn't all that hot on landbased naval air strike forces. I would expect that the USMC , if anyone , would take this and run with it.....

I dont see where the original specs asked for torpedo capability, given the split bomb bay carring an internal torp would be awkward.
The B26B was capable of carrying torpedos. http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b26_4.html
The B version introduced self-sealing fuel lines and a rearrangement of various internal equipment items. The engines were switched back to R-2800-5s. The large propeller spinners were deleted. The oil cooler air scoop under the engine cowling was enlarged. Torpedo racks underneath the fuselage were fitted as factory-installed equipment. Fuel supply included two 350-gallon main fuel tanks in the wings, two 121-gallon auxiliary tanks, and up to four 250-gallon bomb bay ferry tanks, for a total capacity of 1962 gallons. Normal bomb load consisted of two 2000 lb or 1600 lb bombs, eight 500-pound, sixteen 250 lb, or thirty 100-lb bombs. Maximum short-range bombload was 5200 pounds, which was seldom carried. This could be two 1600-lb bombs plus a 2000-pound torpedo on the external rack.

Early models of the B-26 had two separate bomb bays, but the rear one was only used infrequently for light loads in the South Pacific. Eventually, the rear bomb bay racks were discontinued altogether, followed by the deletion of the rear bomb bay doors and actuating mechanisms as well. The space and weight factors had become too critical, and the space was more valuable as a gunner's station after two flexible 0.50-inch machine guns were installed in the waist window area and ammunition storage boxes were installed for the tail and waist guns. Provisions for the two rear bay tanks were deleted from the B-26B-25-MA and later blocks.

Plus a bit about the widow maker reputation
http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b26_5.html

< Message edited by JeffK -- 7/13/2012 12:49:26 AM >


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Post #: 148
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/13/2012 3:15:58 AM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

WOW....just doing a little research says we'd need to do an a lot to even begin to nail this down. It appears that the Army specs required the plan to be able to preform torpedo attacks from the begining. Supposedly the B-26a could carry an internal fish, but I can't find which model.The B-26's at Midway , from the 22nd and 35th BG's were B-26B's , which had longer wings and bigger tails for more stability and better handling.

I've found an account where VT-13 tested Mk 13's , operating under extremes succesfully , such as 280kts (which must have been quite a trick in a TBM/TBF, requiring a dive!) and as high as 800 feet! (That is to say , operating , working,functional torpedos. Obviously you could drop from 20,000 if you don't mind the fish hitting the water and turning into a million parts!).

My gut feeling is that B-26's , with well trained crews , could do this , but the USAAF really wasn't that hot on the idea. And the USN wasn't all that hot on landbased naval air strike forces. I would expect that the USMC , if anyone , would take this and run with it.....

I dont see where the original specs asked for torpedo capability, given the split bomb bay carring an internal torp would be awkward.
The B26B was capable of carrying torpedos. http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b26_4.html
The B version introduced self-sealing fuel lines and a rearrangement of various internal equipment items. The engines were switched back to R-2800-5s. The large propeller spinners were deleted. The oil cooler air scoop under the engine cowling was enlarged. Torpedo racks underneath the fuselage were fitted as factory-installed equipment. Fuel supply included two 350-gallon main fuel tanks in the wings, two 121-gallon auxiliary tanks, and up to four 250-gallon bomb bay ferry tanks, for a total capacity of 1962 gallons. Normal bomb load consisted of two 2000 lb or 1600 lb bombs, eight 500-pound, sixteen 250 lb, or thirty 100-lb bombs. Maximum short-range bombload was 5200 pounds, which was seldom carried. This could be two 1600-lb bombs plus a 2000-pound torpedo on the external rack.

Early models of the B-26 had two separate bomb bays, but the rear one was only used infrequently for light loads in the South Pacific. Eventually, the rear bomb bay racks were discontinued altogether, followed by the deletion of the rear bomb bay doors and actuating mechanisms as well. The space and weight factors had become too critical, and the space was more valuable as a gunner's station after two flexible 0.50-inch machine guns were installed in the waist window area and ammunition storage boxes were installed for the tail and waist guns. Provisions for the two rear bay tanks were deleted from the B-26B-25-MA and later blocks.

Plus a bit about the widow maker reputation
http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b26_5.html



Damned if I know. Let me get back to you when I can lay my hands on a B-26 "operators manual".

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(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 149
RE: Allied CVs, early wwar - 7/13/2012 4:36:09 AM   
icepharmy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LowCommand

As I remember (I’m too lazy to look for sources right now) the B-26 was shipped with adaptors for 2 torpedoes (although the adapters had a tendency to get lost.) They did get used early war at Midway and against the diversionary attack in the Aleutians. There the Japanese had the rare joy of seeing a torpedo pass completely over a CVL due to the very rough weather. The B-26 went MIA.


Absolutely nothing, just found a Japanese source, while looking around for other material. I myself did not know that it was Marauders that carried those torps, and that they reverted the next day to level bombing. Always assumed it was just the PBYs, since books often state, incorrectly that both the B-25 and B-26 had their baptism of fire in Australia/SWPAC By the way it probably had to do with the fact that Midway was a marine base and actually had torpedoes on hand.

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Post #: 150
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