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Axis HQ SU method

 
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Axis HQ SU method - 7/2/2012 8:17:42 AM   
A game


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Question that has probably been debated umpteen times already, but a summary from someone would be nice!

As the Axis is it best to set all HQs to 0 on first turn and then assign each one individually? This seems to be a common method used?

It seems like it would be cheaper and easier to leave the HQs as they are but individually reassign a support unit when you feel its needed elsewhere, this also means the whole army isnt left without SUs for the first few turns which seems like a major con to the method above...
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RE: Axis HQ SU method - 7/2/2012 1:58:01 PM   
heliodorus04


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I believe that a 0 SU setting will cause you tremendous problems.

On Turn 1, what I do is set a few HQs that are WAY WAY WAY over-stocked with SUs to a setting of 1. Never more than 1. So let's take 8.Corps in 9.Army for Germany - it's the single-most ridiculously over-stocked HQ the game will ever know (seriously, what was 9.Army/AGC thinking?).

The HQs basically amount to 8.Corps, and every panzer corps (those are also seriously over-stocked) except 1 or 2 of them.

A setting of 1 will see these HQs keep 1 pioneer, 1 regular artillery, 1 heavy artillery, 1 nebelwerfer, etc.
So on Turn 2, each of these will have a minimalist setup, and then you lock them on turn 2.

Simultaneously, I spend probably 20 of my 30 APs on Turn 1 simply moving SUs to important Corps-level HQs. For example, I use 23.Corps (9.Army) to start the breakout of 16.Army/3.PanzerGrp on Turn 1, and since 23.Corps starts with no SUs, I spend directly to move some SUs out the panzer corps and into 23.corps.

A setting of 0 will force you to spend more APs moving SUs back into corps. A setting of 1 accomplishes most of the same purposes, leaves some support for Turn 2 (and however long it takes to rotate SUs to the appropriate level).

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RE: Axis HQ SU method - 7/3/2012 3:21:04 AM   
Farfarer

 

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One of the devs replied to a post of mine on this that occasionally a zero setting puts the HQ into a near infinite "do loop" ( if you remember FORTRAN) where in it keeps donating out and claiming back all it's SU's and they end up not moving. "One" was the recommended setting, other than lock. hats off Helio, I have given up on Axis SU and leave everything at "3", then assign to Divs as good stuff randomly shows up in a Corps HQ. later on on I try and drive Construction units up the chain as they get such large deployment ranges. Karl Mortar and the Tiger Battalions get personal attention.

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RE: Axis HQ SU method - 7/3/2012 7:09:22 PM   
Rufus T. Firefly


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Alternatively, if you are not playing against another humanbeing (or your opponent agrees) you can simply go into the editor and redistribute all the SUs as you like before the game starts then lock them. This is rather tedious, but you only have to do it once and then save it.

_____________________________

Rufus T. Firefly: Do you realize our army is facing disastrous defeat? What do you intend to do about it?
Chicolini: I've done it already. I've changed to the other side.
Firefly: What are you doing over here?
Chicolini: Well, the food is better

(in reply to Farfarer)
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RE: Axis HQ SU method - 7/3/2012 9:31:38 PM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rufus T. Firefly

Alternatively, if you are not playing against another humanbeing (or your opponent agrees) you can simply go into the editor and redistribute all the SUs as you like before the game starts then lock them. This is rather tedious, but you only have to do it once and then save it.


If you're playing the AI, just set the Admin level to 400% (200 APs per turn).

(in reply to Rufus T. Firefly)
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RE: Axis HQ SU method - 7/3/2012 11:54:57 PM   
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Thanks for the comments, the set all to 0 did seem like an inefficient way to go about it, I like your method heliodorus04 which is what I was planning on doing myself.

Related to this method re: setting each HQ to 1 and then individually moving the leftovers, I have another question. Is there much difference between having say 1 pioneer SU or 3 pioneer SU in an HQ? In the manual it states that having less SU makes it easier to employ in battle, but conversely more SU gives the HQ more chances to employ an SU? Has anyone noticed which way is more likely to work?


(in reply to heliodorus04)
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RE: Axis HQ SU method - 7/4/2012 1:00:07 AM   
heliodorus04


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I can't remember specific discussion about this in a LONG time, but the general consensus (way back then) was that 5 combat SUs, sometimes 6, is the optimal maximum. Construction HQs do not count toward this figure.

One thing you need to know is that pioneers/sappers NEVER move automatically - you always have to spend an AP to move them. For both sides.

I do not over-use pioneers in HQs. One per HQ is my maximum except for specific campaigns (Leningrad/Moscow/Sevastapol, etc.). Even then, if I'm going to over-allocate pioneers for major action, I would spend APs embedding pioneers in specific units, with perhaps 1 in the corps HQ, and perhaps one more in the Army HQ (if the latter is within 1-3 hexes of the fighting, which is sometimes quite helpful to do).

My general config for Germany is 3 arty (none heavy) or Nebelwerfers, 1 pioneer. Thereafter, 1 stug OR jagdpanzer is sometimes helpful, but I generally prefer to concentrate Stugs in the specific campaigns, inside specific units. I almost never leave Stugs outside of divisions.

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RE: Axis HQ SU method - 7/5/2012 12:22:00 AM   
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That seems like a sensible setup, what is recommended for the Soviet SU balance? At the moment in my PBEM game as soviet I have each army HQ with 3 art units, 3 sapper regiments and then the HQs I think will be in the hot zones will have a few special SU such as ski, mortar etc.

It is approaching the end of February 42 and I have over 500k of arm points in the pool so should I be building more SU's? Or is that just overkill and having more than 6 in an HQ will actually make it harder to deploy them?

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RE: Axis HQ SU method - 7/5/2012 5:53:08 PM   
Schmart

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: A game
It is approaching the end of February 42 and I have over 500k of arm points in the pool so should I be building more SU's? Or is that just overkill and having more than 6 in an HQ will actually make it harder to deploy them?


Depends on if you're trying to build a historical army or not. If you're going for historical, see the link below for a guide I've created:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3126849

(in reply to A game)
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RE: Axis HQ SU method - 7/10/2012 2:46:13 PM   
coolts


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3 things that have always baffled me.

We’ve never had a list of all SU types without using “,etc.”  Even in the manual.  Its impossible to plan without all the info “1 pioneer, 1 regular artillery, 1 heavy artillery, 1 nebelwerfer, etc”.  What is “etc.”?  Are there more types?  What are they? I want to know ;)

If I place Corps HQ’s at 2, say, but have any higher HQ’s at 1 as they are never used in attack, where do any surplus SU go, assuming my corps HQ’s are full as per their “2” allocation?

Worried that SU’s may go astray, I decide to have AG’s set to 3-5 in order to store surplus SU’s for specific purposes that aren’t needed in Corps.  Does this take precedence?  Does the system then TAKE SU’s OUT of Corps HQs’ so they can sit around at higher AG level?  I’ve never known which way priority works here.

Over a year after the game came out we are still working this stuff out!  SU system needs more TLC for WitW ;)  am still playing though, and that’s got to say something.

_____________________________

"Gauls! We have nothing to fear; except perhaps that the sky may fall on our heads tomorrow. But as we all know, tomorrow never comes!!" - Chief Vitalstatistix

(in reply to Schmart)
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RE: Axis HQ SU method - 7/10/2012 5:36:11 PM   
heliodorus04


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Priority is self-contained.

In other words if you set Army Group South to 5 and Sixth Army to 0 and 29 Corps to 2, during the phase in which SUs are shuffled, the only thing that matters is that specific HQ's setting at that moment. They only think for themself, and no one else.

So in the above settings, excess SUs in 29 Corps are going UP one level to 6 Army. However, if 29 Corps does not have 2 of EACH TYPE of combat SU (more on this later - it's very important), then it 29 Corps will PULL down SUs from 6 Army. The only thinking entity here is 29 Corps - 6 Army isn't influencing the decisions of 6 Army's pull request. Either 6 Army has stuff 29 Corps needs, in which case it pulls. Or 6 Army has nothing 29 Corps needs, and no pull happens. Note that it is possible to both pull and push given the right circumstances. For example, if 29 Corps had 2 of every type of SU except Anti Aircraft (which it has 3) and Jagdpanzers (which is has 1) then it can both PUSH the Anti-Aircraft UP (to 6 Army) and PULL a Jagdpanzer from 6 Army (assuming first that it has one).

Now, let's assume for a second that Army Group South has all the SUs in the world, at setting 5 as above. 6 Army has zero SUs (and setting 0) and 29 Corps has setting 2 as above. Now let's assume 29 Corps has zero SUs in it.

In this example, 6 Army will never get SUs to pass down to 29 Corps. Because 6 Army is set to 0, it will not pull anything down, therefore, 29 Corps will never have a selection to draw from.

Where this gets tricky is in knowing what each "Type" of SU is. I can speak better here to Germany than to the Soviets, just from memory of the names and types.

In German SUs, "Gun/Howitzer/Artillery" are all one type
Nebelwerfers (which are a type of artillery) are a separate type.
Heavy Artillery and Heavy Nebelwerfers are EACH a separate type still.
Stug is separate
Jagdpanzer is separate.
All anti aircraft SUs are of a single type

Note that pioneers/sappers (soviet) never move on their own, you have to move them manually.

So you can give yourself a serious SU problem when you set higher tier commands to hold a lot of stuff. In practice, I find it a very bad idea and practice. You can end up with an Army Group having 5 howitzer/gun/artillery, AND 5 Heavy Artillery AND 5 Nebelwerfers AND 5 Heavy Nebelwerfers, and that's a nightmare to re-sort. With a setting of 1, you'll get one of each of these, and that's not nearly as problematic.

I occasionally set certain Army HQs to 1, and same for Army Groups. OKH is always set to 9.

(in reply to coolts)
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RE: Axis HQ SU method - 7/11/2012 12:48:23 PM   
coolts


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Thanks for explaining that. It makes sense and should be in the manual!

BTW, why OKH at 9? Is that your "spare parts store" where newly arived SU's wait for you to decide their manual assignments?

< Message edited by coolts -- 7/11/2012 2:49:34 PM >


_____________________________

"Gauls! We have nothing to fear; except perhaps that the sky may fall on our heads tomorrow. But as we all know, tomorrow never comes!!" - Chief Vitalstatistix

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RE: Axis HQ SU method - 7/11/2012 1:32:32 PM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: coolts

thanks for explaiing that. makes sense and should be in the manual!

BTW, why OKH at 9? Is that your "spare parts store" where newly arived SU's wait for you to decide their manual assignments?


If you're not aware of this tactic, you need to be.
It's known as the "Push" method of SU delivery from OKH to any HQ within range of OKH (more or less).

So with SUs in OKH, you can open the OKH panel, click on an SU, select the existing HQ assignment (obviously, OKH in this example) and you'll notice that all of the available HQ selections for RE-assignment of the SU you opened are for 0 APs.

High Command HQs can 'push' their SUs out to HQs (in range and with the usual limit to the list of 15 or 17 as the maximum that will show up) for 0 AP. Very important to do that. Just move OKH/Stavka around the front and have it re-assign your SUs for free.

(in reply to coolts)
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