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RE: The China Syndrome

 
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RE: The China Syndrome - 11/23/2012 4:50:43 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6479
Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Dont forget, Rader wasnt playing this mod, plus he was playing a newbie.



So true!
However against Rader i think i did play well for what concerns the whole aerial warfare. I made incredible mistakes strategically and tactically, especially overland, but in the air i think i held my own and learnt a lot

My goal in this match is to keep my air force in a good shape as long as possible. Won't waste planes and pilots, even if i can outproduce the allies and can train a huge number of pilots. I want to treat my pilots as if they were real men, so they'll be used only when extremely necessary (so to say against an invasion). Very few purely offensive missions, and possibly over friendly territory.

So far i've managed to save most of my pre-war pilots (especially fighter pilots) and the training levels of the new recruits have been kept as high as possible, throwing them on the front line only when the 50 (exp)-70(a2a)-60(def) levels are reached

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 1321
RE: The China Syndrome - 11/23/2012 5:16:32 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 2888
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Submarine attack near Carnarvon at 47,135

Japanese Ships
SS I-153

Allied Ships
AMC Worcestershire, Torpedo hits 1



A great blow for the IJN! Now the British and Commonwealth troops will have to eat endless bully beef without their favourite sauce and their morale will drop 20 points!





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

I have not yet begun to fight! OTOH I have not yet begun to flee. Hmmmmm - choices, choices -always with the choices.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1322
RE: The China Syndrome - 11/23/2012 5:24:36 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6479
Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Submarine attack near Carnarvon at 47,135

Japanese Ships
SS I-153

Allied Ships
AMC Worcestershire, Torpedo hits 1



A great blow for the IJN! Now the British and Commonwealth troops will have to eat endless bully beef without their favourite sauce and their morale will drop 20 points!








(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 1323
RE: The China Syndrome - 11/23/2012 6:46:22 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 15188
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Submarine attack near Carnarvon at 47,135

Japanese Ships
SS I-153

Allied Ships
AMC Worcestershire, Torpedo hits 1



A great blow for the IJN! Now the British and Commonwealth troops will have to eat endless bully beef without their favourite sauce and their morale will drop 20 points!





Too true! And when their will power gives out, they'll have to give in and use soy sauce!

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/site/staffmonkeys/

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 1324
IJAAF worst day - 11/24/2012 12:17:36 AM   
GreyJoy


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Nov 14,15 42

A couple of horrible days for the Empire.
On the 14th the disaster finally arrived. Brad outplayed me tactically and ambushed my bombers in China near Kunming, shooting down not less than 75 bombers!
Then i tried to ambush him at Akyab, but he probably foresaw my move and sent several sweeps tha badly hit my LRCAP and then a huge escorted raid...my fatigued fighters weren't able to do anything good...

We lost 120 planes....luckly only 2 crack fighter pilots got KIA, with 20 more WIA...but nothing terrible. We have plenty of planes in the pools, so we're fine for the moment...but surely Brad's numbers are now overwhelming for us, almost everywhere



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Newcastle at 95,168

Japanese Ships
SS I-26, hits 7

Allied Ships
AK Betelgeuse, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AMC Prince Robert
CM Salem
DMS Boggs
DMS Zane
AM Direct
AD Markab
AV Albemarle
AO Suamico
AP Arthur Middleton
AP Wharton
AK Alchiba
xAK William S. Colley
SC-741
SC-738
SC-707
SC-704
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 47 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 12
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 71
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 9

Allied aircraft
P-39D Airacobra x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-39D Airacobra: 6 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 46th Chinese Corps, at 71,48 , near Kunming

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 18 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 4
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 15
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 16
Ki-49-IIa Helen x 26

Allied aircraft
Hurricane I Trop x 12
Hurricane IIc Trop x 23
P-39D Airacobra x 20
P-400 Airacobra x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 8 destroyed
Ki-43-Ic Oscar: 3 destroyed
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 13 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIc Trop: 1 destroyed
P-400 Airacobra: 1 destroyed

Allied ground losses:
23 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 93rd Chinese Corps, at 71,48 , near Kunming

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 16

Allied aircraft
Hurricane I Trop x 11
Hurricane IIc Trop x 17
P-39D Airacobra x 19
P-400 Airacobra x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 11 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 8
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 65
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 9

Allied aircraft
Martlet II x 16
Hurricane IIb Trop x 16
Hurricane IIc Trop x 16
Liberator II x 14
Wellington Ic x 15
A-20A Havoc x 15
A-20A1 Havoc x 15
B-24D Liberator x 12
B-25C Mitchell x 15
B-26 Marauder x 3
P-40E Warhawk x 25

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Martlet II: 4 destroyed
Hurricane IIb Trop: 3 destroyed
Liberator II: 1 damaged
Wellington Ic: 1 destroyed
A-20A Havoc: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
A-20A1 Havoc: 3 destroyed, 5 damaged
B-25C Mitchell: 6 damaged
B-26 Marauder: 1 damaged
P-40E Warhawk: 7 destroyed

Japanese ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 23

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 36 NM, estimated altitude 24,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 4
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 35
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 6

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb Trop x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb Trop: 1 destroyed


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 17 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 3
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 25
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 6

Allied aircraft
P-66 Vanguard x 12
B-26 Marauder x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-26 Marauder: 8 damaged

Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 1
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 21
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 1

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 19

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 4 destroyed

No Allied losses









On the 15th we had to rest and rotate our air units in China and Burma, while he kept on bombing everywhere...

Then we tried 2 different shock attacks in China. Both were repelled. One near Kunming, where a Cavalry Corp is well dug in and is holding its ground very fast!...near Kienko, the usual attack ended up in the usual 1-2....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 71,48 (near Kunming)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 16732 troops, 240 guns, 144 vehicles, Assault Value = 444

Defending force 13938 troops, 45 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 352

Japanese adjusted assault: 259

Allied adjusted defense: 442

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
643 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 105 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled

Allied ground losses:
378 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 32 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
3rd Division
10th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
20th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
15th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion

Defending units:
1st Chinese Cavalry Corps
34th Separate Brigade
93rd Chinese Corps
46th Chinese Corps
79th Chinese/B Corps
4th War Area
12th Construction Regiment
9th Group Army
10th Construction Regiment
79th Chinese/C Corps


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 80,40 (near Kienko)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 28927 troops, 424 guns, 194 vehicles, Assault Value = 768

Defending force 28460 troops, 172 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 604

Japanese adjusted assault: 742

Allied adjusted defense: 1057

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
1100 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 109 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 29 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 10 disabled
Guns lost 15 (1 destroyed, 14 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
388 casualties reported
Squads: 51 destroyed, 26 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 22 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Guns lost 7 (1 destroyed, 6 disabled)

Assaulting units:
110th Division
26th Division
Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment
Botanko Hvy Gun Regiment
9th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
1st Mortar Battalion
1st Army
14th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
41st Chinese Corps
40th Chinese Corps
14th Chinese Corps
64th Chinese Corps



But at Akyab the enemy was repulsed pretty easily...we will probably have to rotate a bit our units now... however as long as the forts hold, we can hold the line here...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Akyab (54,45)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 40812 troops, 545 guns, 842 vehicles, Assault Value = 1613

Defending force 28637 troops, 314 guns, 69 vehicles, Assault Value = 747

Allied adjusted assault: 1063

Japanese adjusted defense: 3227

Allied assault odds: 1 to 3 (fort level 4)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), forts(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker: fatigue(-)

Japanese ground losses:
837 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 37 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Guns lost 32 (1 destroyed, 31 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
1404 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 154 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 30 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 23 disabled
Vehicles lost 81 (2 destroyed, 79 disabled)

Assaulting units:
254th Armoured Brigade
268th Motorised Brigade
7th Armoured Brigade
18th British Division
6th Chinese Corps
85th British AT Gun Regiment

Defending units:
2nd Division
15th Ind Engineer Regiment
23rd Ind Engineer Regiment
6th RTA Division
2nd RF Gun Bn /1
11th JAAF Base Force
36th Field AA Battalion
5th Mortar Battalion
93rd JAAF AF Bn
3rd Mortar Battalion
5th RF Gun Bn /1










Attachment (1)

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1325
RE: The China Syndrome - 11/24/2012 5:18:49 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 7424
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

IJAAF situation for what concerns pilots is very good. Lots of good reserves and i even started to create a reserve of Low-Naval Bombing pilots...for future defensive needs (i've found that, a part from the Kami role, a couple of squadrons of Helens at 1000 ft can deliver some good damage to an incoming fleet... 4x250kg bombs each plane! Like a Val...not that bad)





Helens on 1000ft drop only 2x250kg bombs, not their full load. Still that's a good way of attacking as I usually do with my Allied non attack bombers too. And a Val doesn't carry 4x250kg bombs either, you'd need four Vals to do that.



I agree with CT. Even with the reduced load. I like my naval attacks going in a 1,000. feet.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 1326
RE: IJAAF worst day - 11/24/2012 8:34:13 AM   
inqistor


Posts: 1338
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Then i tried to ambush him at Akyab, but he probably foresaw my move and sent several sweeps tha badly hit my LRCAP and then a huge escorted raid...my fatigued fighters weren't able to do anything good...

We lost 120 planes....luckly only 2 crack fighter pilots got KIA, with 20 more WIA...but nothing terrible. We have plenty of planes in the pools, so we're fine for the moment...but surely Brad's numbers are now overwhelming for us, almost everywhere

If there are several sweeps, then bomber raid, just set LRCAP to really low number (like 10%). That way you will get more planes on target with time, not less (but you will get slaughtered by sweeps earlier).
Anyway, I do not understand why you are conserving your airforce? At that stage Allies get less than 250 fighters replacement. You can bleed them white in a week. If your airfields are open just put there unit. It will lose some planes on ground, but you will be in better position during fight.

Also, why do you assault only by roads in China? Just push your forces west directly to Chungking plains (just above China text). ONE hex of forest is not THAT hard for supply. Air attacks against LCU in open are killer.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1327
RE: IJAAF worst day - 11/24/2012 8:48:07 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6479
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Then i tried to ambush him at Akyab, but he probably foresaw my move and sent several sweeps tha badly hit my LRCAP and then a huge escorted raid...my fatigued fighters weren't able to do anything good...

We lost 120 planes....luckly only 2 crack fighter pilots got KIA, with 20 more WIA...but nothing terrible. We have plenty of planes in the pools, so we're fine for the moment...but surely Brad's numbers are now overwhelming for us, almost everywhere

If there are several sweeps, then bomber raid, just set LRCAP to really low number (like 10%). That way you will get more planes on target with time, not less (but you will get slaughtered by sweeps earlier).
Anyway, I do not understand why you are conserving your airforce? At that stage Allies get less than 250 fighters replacement. You can bleed them white in a week. If your airfields are open just put there unit. It will lose some planes on ground, but you will be in better position during fight.

Also, why do you assault only by roads in China? Just push your forces west directly to Chungking plains (just above China text). ONE hex of forest is not THAT hard for supply. Air attacks against LCU in open are killer.



Hi mate,

my front line airfields in Burma are too small and too isolated to really be able to guest planes. Also i have very spare air support to live with in Burma and i'm more or less forced to concentrate it in a couple of main bases where, backed with the Air HQs, i can have enough air support to sustain prolonged fights (remember that in DBB japanese air support has been halved by 50%).
Also my main problem isn't my pools. The problem is supply and only supply: a damaged plane or a destroyed plane that needs to be replaced requires supply. At this moment, supply must be conserved for those very hungry LCUs that are holding the line against superior forces. Every day i need to check the supply levels and it's really driving me crazy.
So, to summerize, I cannot bear an aggressive air campaign because it would require a much higher supply consumption...which is a thing i cannot sustain.

In China i've tried months ago (exactly that road)that and it doesn't work. With stacking limits you always need to be in good supply situation and with all the best possible fighting condition you can have (so plenty of support, air attacks, artillery, tanks etc). Going offroad can be done, but only in rough terrain. If you go in wood+rough it's over. Even a tiny enemy army, undersupplied and badly distrupted, can hold an equal number of enemies and the air attacks do nothing with a +3 terrain.
Anyway, we now see the plains....




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(in reply to inqistor)
Post #: 1328
RE: IJAAF worst day - 11/24/2012 8:59:37 AM   
GreyJoy


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Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
.




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Post #: 1329
RE: IJAAF worst day - 11/24/2012 9:05:43 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6479
Joined: 3/18/2011
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.




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Post #: 1330
RE: IJAAF worst day - 11/24/2012 9:08:13 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6479
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
Oh, haven't i said that i'm having supply problems?
Clearly, even over here, supply is scarse everywhere. Everything must be shipped from Japan, but i have to be very carefull in making my supply convoys, cause Japan simply cannot send more than 50k supplies per week without seeing dropping its supply levels below 500k (which is the minimum number to keep on running the R&D factories...)...so it's a damn PITA!

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1331
Glory in Central China - 11/25/2012 12:26:08 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6479
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
Nov 19, 42

Finally a good news.

Our Tank Corp managed to blitz on the right flank of the chinese armies defending Chungking, while the 13th Army was pinning down the enemy in the woods, the tanks exploited the lack of defences in the rough terrain south of Neikiang and advanced at great speed(15 miles/day) and today crossed the river and invested the city, destroying two weak chinese corps that were defending the base.
Brad made his first huge mistake in months, not covering that vector and now our tanks are in the plains!!! Our divisions are trying to reach those positions, but infantry takes a while to move...we won0t wait...our tanks are already marching to invest the 50,000 men army right west of Chungking.

At the very same time the 11th Army is having some problems near Kunming, not being able to dislodge the enemy entrenched in the mountains...it will take a while... but he has no more men to rotate here and, sooner or later, that position will be taken!

BANZAIII!!!!!

Nothing new in the rest of the map, a part from the usual bombings in Burma and the usual massing of ships on both sides of Oz...




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Neikiang (75,44)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 15201 troops, 226 guns, 1061 vehicles, Assault Value = 729

Defending force 7593 troops, 62 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 177

Japanese adjusted assault: 363

Allied adjusted defense: 5

Japanese assault odds: 72 to 1 (fort level 1)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Neikiang !!!
Combat modifiers
Defender: disruption(-), preparation(-), fatigue(-), experience(-)
supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
124 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 10 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Vehicles lost 9 (1 destroyed, 8 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
4055 casualties reported
Squads: 64 destroyed, 136 disabled
Non Combat: 108 destroyed, 14 disabled
Engineers: 13 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 64 (18 destroyed, 46 disabled)
Units retreated 1
Units destroyed 1

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
1st Tank Division
2nd Tank Regiment
4th Tank Regiment
3rd Tank Regiment
2nd Tank Division

Defending units:
30th Chinese Corps
51st Chinese Corps


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 71,48 (near Kunming)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 24470 troops, 281 guns, 176 vehicles, Assault Value = 739

Defending force 13492 troops, 44 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 312

Japanese adjusted assault: 225

Allied adjusted defense: 313

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), morale(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
862 casualties reported
Squads: 7 destroyed, 73 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 41 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 12 disabled
Guns lost 23 (10 destroyed, 13 disabled)
Vehicles lost 50 (32 destroyed, 18 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
994 casualties reported
Squads: 40 destroyed, 9 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
22nd Division
60th Division
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
11th Army
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
20th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
10th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
15th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion

Defending units:
46th Chinese Corps
34th Separate Brigade
79th Chinese/B Corps
93rd Chinese Corps
1st Chinese Cavalry Corps
79th Chinese/C Corps
4th War Area
9th Group Army
10th Construction Regiment









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(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1332
RE: Glory in Central China - 11/25/2012 1:13:11 AM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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From: Germany
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Chiang Kai-shek must be pretty nervous now ^^

_____________________________



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Post #: 1333
RE: Glory in Central China - 11/25/2012 1:30:44 AM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3880
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From: Lone Star Nation
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Wow, that is a good day! Big mess for the KMT. Press on to final victory!

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Post #: 1334
RE: Glory in Central China - 11/25/2012 4:09:18 AM   
crsutton


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From: Maryland
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I would send one tank unit north to block the road from Chentu to Kumming. The road junction there is a critical hex and he has made a major mistake by not keeping a strong unit there. Basically every Chinese unit in the central plain and to the east is now doomed. No sense allowing any to escape via that route. Your tanks can get there before he does and that will set up a solid wall of ZOC that he can't move through. If he gets there first, he will be able to move units through the hex regardless of your presence. You might have to supply it by air but a Japanese tank unit is basically immune to Chinese infantry attacks.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 11/25/2012 4:11:50 AM >


_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

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Post #: 1335
RE: Glory in Central China - 11/25/2012 9:59:38 AM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I would send one tank unit north to block the road from Chentu to Kumming. The road junction there is a critical hex and he has made a major mistake by not keeping a strong unit there. Basically every Chinese unit in the central plain and to the east is now doomed. No sense allowing any to escape via that route. Your tanks can get there before he does and that will set up a solid wall of ZOC that he can't move through. If he gets there first, he will be able to move units through the hex regardless of your presence. You might have to supply it by air but a Japanese tank unit is basically immune to Chinese infantry attacks.


Nov 20 1942

Very nice suggestion! I'll do my best but i only have a tiny force of Tanks there and, while the two tank divisions marched towards Chungking, a single enemy unit managed to occupy the city hex once again, so the tank rgt i left there will have first to deal with it. Problem now, as always with the blitzkrieg moves, is that my infantrymen are not keeping up the pace of the tanks...and our flanks are really exposed. However, as Guderian and Rommell tought us, you don't have to fear for your flanks. Always press on and outmanouvre the enemy. The enemy, btw, is leaving most of his positions and falling back to Chungking where there are already 80,000 men!
We moved to China 2 Tojo Sentais and one more Oscar IIb Sentai. These guys will have to keep potential enemy ambushes at bay... we now need to achieve a total air superiority in China and maintain it as long as possible.
...We're close...

In Oz, LOTS of ships are moving into the Gulf of Carpentaria!...he's moving really fast now... we have to find a way to counter his advance...


(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 1336
RE: Glory in Central China - 11/25/2012 10:12:33 AM   
fcharton

 

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Good job in Neikiang. I believe you should use your bombers to disrupt the KMT troops in the plains. This will serve two purposes, prevent any attempt to take Neikiang, and damage those troops before they fall back into defensive terrain.

Do you have transports in the area? If so, I would bring some engineers and air support, and maybe a few infantry to garrison the city, and allow your tanks to sortie. Once you are in Sichuan, I think the next order of business is to cut the roads throught the plains. More specifically, if you can cut the communications between Chengtu, Chungking (his main supply sources) and Kienko, there is a good chance that the mountain fortress north of Kienko will fall...

Francois


(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1337
RE: Glory in Central China - 11/25/2012 10:31:49 AM   
Encircled


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From: Northern England
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Cracking move there.

I wonder if Q-Ball is running out of decent combat units which is why he left that gap?

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 1338
RE: Glory in Central China - 11/25/2012 11:25:05 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6479
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

Good job in Neikiang. I believe you should use your bombers to disrupt the KMT troops in the plains. This will serve two purposes, prevent any attempt to take Neikiang, and damage those troops before they fall back into defensive terrain.

Do you have transports in the area? If so, I would bring some engineers and air support, and maybe a few infantry to garrison the city, and allow your tanks to sortie. Once you are in Sichuan, I think the next order of business is to cut the roads throught the plains. More specifically, if you can cut the communications between Chengtu, Chungking (his main supply sources) and Kienko, there is a good chance that the mountain fortress north of Kienko will fall...

Francois




Thanks Francois! Problem is i don't have any unrestricted unit nearby and have no PPs left to buy anything at the moment. Moreover the Neikiang AF is completely trashed and it's only a lvl 1 AF... However i'll do my best to try something about that!

YEs, now i need first to defeat the stack that lingers in the plains west of Chungking, then i'll move to cut the comm lines between Chyngking and Chengtu, following Crsutton's advice. But i badly need my infantry now to come up and back up the tanks for garrisoning duties...


(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 1339
RE: Glory in Central China - 11/25/2012 11:29:31 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6479
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Cracking move there.

I wonder if Q-Ball is running out of decent combat units which is why he left that gap?


I think his mistake was to focus ONLY on terrain with a +3 bonus, leaving the whole rough terrain uncovered. Even a couple of well dug in corps would have slowed down the advance of the tanks and he would have had time to recover and to guard that approach to the plains.
However now, with the main road from Kunming cut off and with the japanese tanks in the plains, i bet his whole supply situation will get worse and worse everyday. He already left several armies out of a direct suplly line...and those units are doomed. The northern Fortress near Kienko remains formidable, but now he has moved back to Kienko all the units that were being rotated in so i feel it will be a matter of time before those brave chinese units will be grinded down...and if in the meantime i managed to get to Kienko...well

(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 1340
RE: Glory in Central China - 11/25/2012 2:55:41 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 7424
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Cracking move there.

I wonder if Q-Ball is running out of decent combat units which is why he left that gap?


I think his mistake was to focus ONLY on terrain with a +3 bonus, leaving the whole rough terrain uncovered. Even a couple of well dug in corps would have slowed down the advance of the tanks and he would have had time to recover and to guard that approach to the plains.
However now, with the main road from Kunming cut off and with the japanese tanks in the plains, i bet his whole supply situation will get worse and worse everyday. He already left several armies out of a direct suplly line...and those units are doomed. The northern Fortress near Kienko remains formidable, but now he has moved back to Kienko all the units that were being rotated in so i feel it will be a matter of time before those brave chinese units will be grinded down...and if in the meantime i managed to get to Kienko...well



I don't want to toot my own horn..(of course I do) But as I said earlier your para drop south of Kweiyang was the key move of your whole campaign. Kweiyang is the key to China. I only know this because I have fought and lost a long campaign in China to Viberpol. Once Kweiyang falls China is lost and the Allied player needs to start making plans to fall back to the West to hold the mountains between Kumming and Burma. It it hard to see it but at that point the only real achievable goal that the Allied player can hope for is to save his army.

But I also learned that China is the one theater where the Allies can totally lose and it really does not matter. Sure it helps Japan to free up all of those troops but not as much as most players think. As the war progresses it becomes a war dominated by air and sea power over land. If the Allies control the sea then any Japanese force in the Pacific can be isolated and defeated or neutralized.

Not that taking out China is a bad idea...

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1341
RE: Glory in Central China - 11/25/2012 5:33:54 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6479
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Cracking move there.

I wonder if Q-Ball is running out of decent combat units which is why he left that gap?


I think his mistake was to focus ONLY on terrain with a +3 bonus, leaving the whole rough terrain uncovered. Even a couple of well dug in corps would have slowed down the advance of the tanks and he would have had time to recover and to guard that approach to the plains.
However now, with the main road from Kunming cut off and with the japanese tanks in the plains, i bet his whole supply situation will get worse and worse everyday. He already left several armies out of a direct suplly line...and those units are doomed. The northern Fortress near Kienko remains formidable, but now he has moved back to Kienko all the units that were being rotated in so i feel it will be a matter of time before those brave chinese units will be grinded down...and if in the meantime i managed to get to Kienko...well



I don't want to toot my own horn..(of course I do) But as I said earlier your para drop south of Kweiyang was the key move of your whole campaign. Kweiyang is the key to China. I only know this because I have fought and lost a long campaign in China to Viberpol. Once Kweiyang falls China is lost and the Allied player needs to start making plans to fall back to the West to hold the mountains between Kumming and Burma. It it hard to see it but at that point the only real achievable goal that the Allied player can hope for is to save his army.

But I also learned that China is the one theater where the Allies can totally lose and it really does not matter. Sure it helps Japan to free up all of those troops but not as much as most players think. As the war progresses it becomes a war dominated by air and sea power over land. If the Allies control the sea then any Japanese force in the Pacific can be isolated and defeated or neutralized.

Not that taking out China is a bad idea...


Yes, i agree. China won't win me the war, but surely it will reinforce the whole Burma front, thus buying me more time to defend somewhere else. Also it's good to have wiped out any risk of having B29s based in China in 1944...

This campaign has been decided first with the use of paras behind the enemy lines, conquering crucial places like Liuchow or Puchan, then with the tanks blitz early on that let me advance very early to Sian, and then by the fall of Chikkiang that opened the door to Kweyang

However it's far from being over guys.

Nov 21-22, 42

In the last two days Brad sent strange small raids against Mandalay, losing more than 30 bombers for no gain. My air defences there are pretty strong and i don't see why he's sending lone 4E squadrons to die en masse...

The BB South Dakota has been spotted near Sydney and today a CVE has been spotted near Townville... the enemy CVs are close, i smell it! While several BIG TFs are now moving into the Bay of Carpentaria... We moved more Netties to Timor and an Air HQ is moving to Ambon, while the KB will wait and linger in the shades...

In China our tank corp got first a 1-2 but then managed to dislodge the enemy stack west of Chungking, while a single tank regiment isn't able to beat a chinese base force that managed to enter to Neikiang .
We got another bloody nose near kunming where the enemy is fighting very bravely! But i know that i will need time to grind them down. We will press on! More bombers are being moving to China along with 80 Tojos...



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 75,45 (near Chungking)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 14487 troops, 226 guns, 988 vehicles, Assault Value = 641

Defending force 24410 troops, 101 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 641

Japanese adjusted assault: 554

Allied adjusted defense: 120

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), supply(-)

Japanese ground losses:
263 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 25 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 34 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Vehicles lost 98 (9 destroyed, 89 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
9035 casualties reported
Squads: 221 destroyed, 199 disabled
Non Combat: 246 destroyed, 40 disabled
Engineers: 6 destroyed, 6 disabled
Guns lost 20 (10 destroyed, 10 disabled)
Units retreated 7

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
4th Tank Regiment
3rd Tank Regiment
1st Tank Division
2nd Tank Division

Defending units:
7th Chinese Corps
17th Chinese Corps
57th Chinese Corps
63rd Chinese Corps
8th Construction Regiment
30th Chinese Corps
24th Group Army


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 71,48 (near Kunming)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 38329 troops, 398 guns, 159 vehicles, Assault Value = 1083

Defending force 12520 troops, 43 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 262

Japanese adjusted assault: 250

Allied adjusted defense: 412

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
3176 casualties reported
Squads: 70 destroyed, 219 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 18 disabled
Engineers: 6 destroyed, 13 disabled
Guns lost 31 (7 destroyed, 24 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
825 casualties reported
Squads: 18 destroyed, 55 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 41 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 11 (3 destroyed, 8 disabled)

Assaulting units:
3rd Division
22nd Division
60th Division
20th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
10th Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
11th Army
52nd Ind.Mtn.Gun Battalion
1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
15th Ind.Medium Field Artillery Regiment
15th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion

Defending units:
1st Chinese Cavalry Corps
93rd Chinese Corps
46th Chinese Corps
79th Chinese/B Corps
4th War Area
9th Group Army
34th Separate Brigade
79th Chinese/C Corps


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Neikiang (75,44)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 378 troops, 0 guns, 71 vehicles, Assault Value = 39

Defending force 6608 troops, 35 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 34

Japanese adjusted assault: 64

Allied adjusted defense: 40

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1

Combat modifiers
Defender: preparation(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Allied ground losses:
60 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Assaulting units:
2nd Tank Regiment

Defending units:
1st Chinese Base Force




An empty Whyndam falls, in northern oz, to USMC Paras....


(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 1342
RE: Glory in Central China - 11/25/2012 5:40:36 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6479
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
I'm keeping both southern corners of Oz checked by Glenn-equipped subs. I wanna know if the the USN Fleet goes to western Oz well before they appear.

At the same time i'm keeping a decent numbers of subs in the Indian Ocean...just to be sure. The area North West of Timor is being garrisoned pretty well, while i still need time to move some smaller units around right south of Java (Dempassar, Bali etc) but we're getting there.

The Zuikaku fighter group (following the example of Akagi's and Shokaku's) has just been upgraded to the brand new A6M5, while already 100 A6M3as are operative in Burma and at Rabaul. The Judy is being produced in good numbers, but it will take a while before i can upgrade my KB. Jills should enter into production in mid december 42 if Gods are good.

George is already at 50% towards the first acceleration step

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1343
RE: Glory in Central China - 11/25/2012 7:18:21 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 2888
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
Kunming - OUCH! I never shock attack in mountains if there are enemy infantry there! Even dislodging artillery or AA units I would do a DA. Your guys can use the boulders as a shield too!

_____________________________

I have not yet begun to fight! OTOH I have not yet begun to flee. Hmmmmm - choices, choices -always with the choices.

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1344
RE: IJAAF worst day - 11/25/2012 8:56:28 PM   
inqistor


Posts: 1338
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

my front line airfields in Burma are too small and too isolated to really be able to guest planes. Also i have very spare air support to live with in Burma and i'm more or less forced to concentrate it in a couple of main bases where, backed with the Air HQs, i can have enough air support to sustain prolonged fights (remember that in DBB japanese air support has been halved by 50%).
Also my main problem isn't my pools. The problem is supply and only supply: a damaged plane or a destroyed plane that needs to be replaced requires supply. At this moment, supply must be conserved for those very hungry LCUs that are holding the line against superior forces. Every day i need to check the supply levels and it's really driving me crazy.
So, to summerize, I cannot bear an aggressive air campaign because it would require a much higher supply consumption...which is a thing i cannot sustain.

Fighter plane uses like 1/3rd point for a mission. Your single Division will use in one turn fighting more supply, than all your fighters in Burma for a week. And Aviation Support is only to keep planes in good condition. You can easily fly your air unit, and fly for a day, or two, without any support at base.

Anyway, if you are short on supply get it from enemy. There should be lots of it stockpiled north of Burma. Just land around Calcutta, and conquer it. Not only there are lots of factories there, but you will also cut off whole eastern front. It is only 1942, and Allies did not even upgraded their squads once.
What is he going to do then? Move back all those division from northern Burma? It will take weeks to march back through jungle.

quote:

In China i've tried months ago (exactly that road)that and it doesn't work. With stacking limits you always need to be in good supply situation and with all the best possible fighting condition you can have (so plenty of support, air attacks, artillery, tanks etc). Going offroad can be done, but only in rough terrain. If you go in wood+rough it's over. Even a tiny enemy army, undersupplied and badly distrupted, can hold an equal number of enemies and the air attacks do nothing with a +3 terrain.
Anyway, we now see the plains....

Seriously, you are fighting on identical terrain south of the river. One forest hex is just worth 3 road hexes in supply lenght. No big deal. But you broke through already, so not issue anymore

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1345
RE: The China Syndrome - 11/25/2012 10:24:01 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6479
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
Nov 24 1942

The enemy placed again LRCAP over Kunming. Hurricanes and P-39s. This time my Tojos arrived from Liuchow and achieved a solid 6 to 20. A good day. Lost 3 pilots but these weren't crack, just half trained pilots sent to China when they hadn't yet finished their training course.

In Central China we haven't moved. We are a bit in a supply problem and my troops need some rest. The divisions are arriving and we're trying to airlift a base force to Nienkiang.

Lots of CAs approaching Exmouth...mmmm....this smell like preparation of landing in western DEI...


(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1346
RE: IJAAF worst day - 11/25/2012 10:29:03 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6479
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

my front line airfields in Burma are too small and too isolated to really be able to guest planes. Also i have very spare air support to live with in Burma and i'm more or less forced to concentrate it in a couple of main bases where, backed with the Air HQs, i can have enough air support to sustain prolonged fights (remember that in DBB japanese air support has been halved by 50%).
Also my main problem isn't my pools. The problem is supply and only supply: a damaged plane or a destroyed plane that needs to be replaced requires supply. At this moment, supply must be conserved for those very hungry LCUs that are holding the line against superior forces. Every day i need to check the supply levels and it's really driving me crazy.
So, to summerize, I cannot bear an aggressive air campaign because it would require a much higher supply consumption...which is a thing i cannot sustain.

Fighter plane uses like 1/3rd point for a mission. Your single Division will use in one turn fighting more supply, than all your fighters in Burma for a week. And Aviation Support is only to keep planes in good condition. You can easily fly your air unit, and fly for a day, or two, without any support at base.

Anyway, if you are short on supply get it from enemy. There should be lots of it stockpiled north of Burma. Just land around Calcutta, and conquer it. Not only there are lots of factories there, but you will also cut off whole eastern front. It is only 1942, and Allies did not even upgraded their squads once.
What is he going to do then? Move back all those division from northern Burma? It will take weeks to march back through jungle.

quote:

In China i've tried months ago (exactly that road)that and it doesn't work. With stacking limits you always need to be in good supply situation and with all the best possible fighting condition you can have (so plenty of support, air attacks, artillery, tanks etc). Going offroad can be done, but only in rough terrain. If you go in wood+rough it's over. Even a tiny enemy army, undersupplied and badly distrupted, can hold an equal number of enemies and the air attacks do nothing with a +3 terrain.
Anyway, we now see the plains....

Seriously, you are fighting on identical terrain south of the river. One forest hex is just worth 3 road hexes in supply lenght. No big deal. But you broke through already, so not issue anymore


Yup, got it. But in Burma i only have Mitikyna (Katha and Wazrup) which is a level 2 Af, completely trashed btw. So i really don't have the chance to move fighters up there. And, btw, planes eat supplies also when they need to be replaced or repaired...and this is a war of supplies...at least for us

A indian division (the 20th), supported by a carabineer regiment, approached the two regiments of the 18th Div who's guarding the northeastern flank of the akyab front... we're trying to reinforce the position...

But, overall, i think the Burma front is holding, despite the constant bombings...the lessons learnt in China are paying off

About China...yes, the problem, however, is that, without roads, you move so slow that the enemy is always able to to reinforce before you can bring more fresh troops.


(in reply to inqistor)
Post #: 1347
RE: IJAAF worst day - 11/25/2012 11:33:41 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6479
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
Nov 25, 42

The enemy finally, after weeks of constant bombing, attacked at Wazrup with a HUGE army...and got repulsed! BANZAIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Burma is holding tight! Yes. We have to hold untill the new monsoon season...it can be done i think!

In China pretty quiet today. We're securing our supply lines at the moment...


In Oz, ships are moving in the Gulf od Carpentaria towards Darwin, while a great TF has just arrived at Exmouth...mmmm.....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Warazup (63,41)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 43334 troops, 282 guns, 508 vehicles, Assault Value = 1714

Defending force 32795 troops, 272 guns, 302 vehicles, Assault Value = 976

Allied adjusted assault: 735

Japanese adjusted defense: 1339

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2 (fort level 2)

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-)
Attacker: op mode(-)

Japanese ground losses:
732 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 72 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 10 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 14 disabled
Guns lost 9 (1 destroyed, 8 disabled)
Vehicles lost 21 (1 destroyed, 20 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
3296 casualties reported
Squads: 9 destroyed, 476 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 14 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 31 disabled
Guns lost 19 (1 destroyed, 18 disabled)
Vehicles lost 26 (1 destroyed, 25 disabled)

Assaulting units:
88th Chinese Division
26th Indian Division
17th Indian Division
50th Tank Brigade
45th Indian Brigade
96th Chinese Division
75th Indian Brigade
2nd Reserve Division
26th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment

Defending units:
5th Division
7th Ind.Tank Brigade
4th Ind Engineer Regiment
4th Guards Division
14th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
18th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
21st Army



(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1348
RE: IJAAF worst day - 11/26/2012 7:00:34 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6479
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
Nov 26, 1942

CHINA: he's threatening the flanks of my tank penetration, so we're not moving any further in the plains. We need to consolidate our flanks first. The Tank divisions are back to Neikiang in order to repair the airstrip so to allow the arrival of the base force from Liuchow by air transport. At the same time 2 tank regiments (now that the tiny base force that entered the hex has been pushed back) are getting back to cover the right flank, while 3 divisions are running to get there in time.
East of Kunming we're stuck again against another damned strongpoint. We will need more time than what we thought to achieve anything in the mountains...

BURMA: after yesterday victory at Wazarup, we're both licking our wounds, while more 17k supplies have been unloaded at Rangoon.

REST OF THE MAP: a ducth sub sinks a big xAK at Kendari...moving some ASW air assets there... we're running everywhere to consolidate our DEI perimeter, while the enemy keeps on moving like a schwarm of bees on both coasts of Oz. Enemy CVs are yet to be identified and located precisely.


(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 1349
RE: The China Syndrome - 11/26/2012 9:28:23 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6479
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
Here's the China situation. As you can see, the Tank Divisions cleared the clear hex west of Chungking and then moved back to Neikiang, while the infantry divisions are moving along the enemy's right flank in order to secure the LOCs. It won't be easy to open a direct path from where to conduct a deeper penetration into the plains.
Near Kunming two divisions are now trying to flank the enemy position...but i don't have many hopes for this movement. It seems to be almost impossible to dislodge a well dug in enemy in a +3 terrain. Bombers won't do much and neither the artillery. We'll keep on trying anyway!







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< Message edited by GreyJoy -- 11/26/2012 9:37:18 AM >

(in reply to GreyJoy)
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