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RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon

 
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RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/18/2013 10:13:21 PM   
witpqs

 

Posts: 14494
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
Good post, Obvert.

A general observation regarding night bombing HR and B-29: A substantial production run of B-29 in the game is without almost no self-defense armament so as to be faster/carry a heavier bomb load specifically for night bombing. If you have that HR you should mod the scenario (not sure if that one can be done mid-game or not, maybe it can?).

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/site/staffmonkeys/

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 3271
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/19/2013 6:01:40 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 4444
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Thought I should chime in just for the other view.

Shouldn't we look at what has been accomplished in about two months of bombing vs what has been lost while doing it?

The US night bombing of Tokyo was by all accounts immensely devastating, and yet at the end of the war it was estimated that only about 50% of Tokyo's industrial capacity was destroyed by that campaign.

The bombing in our game has been happening for what, two months? Maybe 10 weeks? Since it began the Allies have knocked out just about half of the industrial capacity of Tokyo. The B-29s have also managed during this time to knock out nearly half of the industry in Osaka as well, and there is virtually no industry still producing outside the Home Islands due to night bombing B-29s. So, as with everything in the stock game, the extremes are there on both sides of the equation.


Obviously I canīt say very much here as you are reading. But the price for that has been heavy as you will notice eventually. The exakt numbers are in the AAR for anyone interested. Both damage done and not done including losses are there.

The B29 campaign outside the HI has been going on for a year and not two months. Also worth mentioning:

- The last 3 or 4 raids have caused almost no damage at all despite taking tremendous losses. Almost 3 months worth of replacements for no returns.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Only Jocke could answer this, but it's also possible that bombing twice a week is too much for the service 5 airframe, and a lot are being lost due to flying with some fatigue and damage. It would help explain why all of the planes that look to only be damaged in the replay are then lost as A to A, although I'm sure the distance is a problem too. It's interesting as a side note that my pilots are not getting the kills for these planes though they are listed as A to A.


I have not been flying twice a week. I have been flying once every 8-12 days since I stand down the B29 so they go into maintenance to repair plane fatigue. Obviously being SR5 planes they donīt repair fast enough to fly twice a week.

Strat bombing is of course integral in the game design or it wouldnīt be rewarded with VPs. If you donīt allow some kind of night strat bombing of the HI you remove a big piece of the VP puzzle and that is obviously going to upset a lot of things. I donīt want to hijack GJs AAR with a discussion about this. He and Q-ball is of course free to do what they want. I just want to point out at that I donīt agree one bit with the notion that Strat bombing at night from extended range is a "instawin button" and GJ is doomed by allowing this.



< Message edited by JocMeister -- 11/19/2013 7:17:14 AM >

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 3272
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/19/2013 6:05:56 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 4444
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Good post, Obvert.

A general observation regarding night bombing HR and B-29: A substantial production run of B-29 in the game is without almost no self-defense armament so as to be faster/carry a heavier bomb load specifically for night bombing. If you have that HR you should mod the scenario (not sure if that one can be done mid-game or not, maybe it can?).


Speculation on my part. But Iīm quite worried these B29 versions will be unusable in the game. Seeing what the NFs do against heavily armed B29s I think there is a real danger the unarmed version might suffer horrendous losses. I guess it comes down to how big a factor the defensive fire is.

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 11/19/2013 7:10:09 AM >

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 3273
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/19/2013 6:31:17 AM   
koniu

 

Posts: 2088
Joined: 2/28/2011
From: Konin, Poland, European Union
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Good post, Obvert.

A general observation regarding night bombing HR and B-29: A substantial production run of B-29 in the game is without almost no self-defense armament so as to be faster/carry a heavier bomb load specifically for night bombing. If you have that HR you should mod the scenario (not sure if that one can be done mid-game or not, maybe it can?).


Speculation on my part. But Iīm quite worried these B29 versions will be unusable in the game. Seeing what the NFs do against heavily armed B29s I think there is a real danger the unarmed version might suffer horrendous losses. I guess it comes down to how big a factor the defensive fire is.


With current HR i see some logic to change defense armament of nigh version of B-29,
but also adjust speed and range and bomb load to compensate armament change to make that plane day bomber. I believe it can be done by simple modification of database in editor and upgrading save to new version of it.
If noone have skill or guts to risk that something go wrong i think someone in mod froum can do that for them

To do that or not is another problem and it should be decided between GreyJoy and Q-Ball.



_____________________________

"Only the Dead Have Seen the End of War"

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 3274
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/19/2013 10:15:40 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6070
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
Guys, you must have misunderstood my words.
our HR allows to night bomb Japan, but only Japan. So no night bombing in the DEI or China.
That was a compromise between our belief that the Night bombing is essentially borked (especially for what concerns Port, AF and specific industrial targets) and the necessity not to spoil the allies of one of their most important strategic weapon in their arsenal (B29s).

I find this compromise very well balanced.

The game goes on.

Mar 1-2, 1943

After yesterday air raids over Misol, the jap HQ decided to give a go for a naval strike.
A SAG composed of 1 CA, 1 Agano Class CL and 10 old DDs moved at night from Sorong and arrived at Misol.
Here they tangled with a DD TF, trading one DD for a ducth DD..., then fought against 2 PT TFs and finally reached the transports. 3 AKs, 3 AMs and 3 SCs are sunk. Not bad.

On the 2nd of March, from Mandalay and Rangoon 150 jap fighters (KI-84a/r, KI-44c and N1K2s) swept Akyab, finding 30 Spit VIIs. downed 20 spits for 10 Franks (2 KIA, 2 MIA). Wanted to keep Brad honest in Burma as much as I can.

Then the allies attacked Ramree Island again...this time conquering it and pushing out my exhausted units.
Now Burma is in real danger. The allies are squeezing it, from Ramree to Lashio, with several Indo-Chinese corps moving down to Chang-Mai... need to evacuate I fear... If he manages to land behind me i'll lose 300,000 men... I need to give priority to the strategical needs against tactical ones. Hate to lose Burma without fighting but I cannot really risk now.

The retreat from Southern DEI continues. More transports are ordered to lift back the 6th Guards Div from Lautem.

Supplies are scares everywhere... from Burma to the DEI all my bases are in yellow or red

No signs of the allied CVs... I bet he's now planning to open another front in Sumatra. All my reserves are already gathering at Singa, Palembang and Java.
The KB (what is left of it) lingers north of Menado...waiting for another opportunity


Ground combat at Ramree Island (54,48)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 31258 troops, 611 guns, 777 vehicles, Assault Value = 1239

Defending force 10853 troops, 136 guns, 7 vehicles, Assault Value = 144

Allied adjusted assault: 1578

Japanese adjusted defense: 249

Allied assault odds: 6 to 1 (fort level 2)

Allied forces CAPTURE Ramree Island !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
     4198 casualties reported
        Squads: 166 destroyed, 29 disabled
        Non Combat: 137 destroyed, 35 disabled
        Engineers: 17 destroyed, 0 disabled
     Guns lost 67 (62 destroyed, 5 disabled)
     Vehicles lost 8 (8 destroyed, 0 disabled)
     Units retreated 4

Allied ground losses:
     423 casualties reported
        Squads: 2 destroyed, 59 disabled
        Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
        Engineers: 2 destroyed, 5 disabled

Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
   268th Motorised Brigade
   20th Indian Division
   23rd Indian Division
   Provisionl Tank Brigade
   150th RAC Regiment
   25th Indian/A Division
   XXXIII Indian Corps

Defending units:
   21st Ind.Mixed Brigade
   55th/B Division
   5th Mortar Battalion
   41st Infantry Regiment

(in reply to koniu)
Post #: 3275
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/19/2013 10:24:12 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6070
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
A convoy with 80K supplies and 30k fuel reached Biak. This will probably be the last run in this area. It's getting harder and harder to defend these waters properly. Once unloaded the transports will bring back some troops in order to redeploy them in Luzon and Okinawa.
Another big 100k supplies convoy left Tokyo, heading for Mindanao. 80k supplies are now reaching Singapore and 20k Rangoon... never enough

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 3276
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/19/2013 11:10:37 AM   
obvert


Posts: 6816
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Thought I should chime in just for the other view.

Shouldn't we look at what has been accomplished in about two months of bombing vs what has been lost while doing it?

The US night bombing of Tokyo was by all accounts immensely devastating, and yet at the end of the war it was estimated that only about 50% of Tokyo's industrial capacity was destroyed by that campaign.

The bombing in our game has been happening for what, two months? Maybe 10 weeks? Since it began the Allies have knocked out just about half of the industrial capacity of Tokyo. The B-29s have also managed during this time to knock out nearly half of the industry in Osaka as well, and there is virtually no industry still producing outside the Home Islands due to night bombing B-29s. So, as with everything in the stock game, the extremes are there on both sides of the equation.


Obviously I canīt say very much here as you are reading. But the price for that has been heavy as you will notice eventually. The exakt numbers are in the AAR for anyone interested. Both damage done and not done including losses are there.

The B29 campaign outside the HI has been going on for a year and not two months. Also worth mentioning:

- The last 3 or 4 raids have caused almost no damage at all despite taking tremendous losses. Almost 3 months worth of replacements for no returns.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Only Jocke could answer this, but it's also possible that bombing twice a week is too much for the service 5 airframe, and a lot are being lost due to flying with some fatigue and damage. It would help explain why all of the planes that look to only be damaged in the replay are then lost as A to A, although I'm sure the distance is a problem too. It's interesting as a side note that my pilots are not getting the kills for these planes though they are listed as A to A.


I have not been flying twice a week. I have been flying once every 8-12 days since I stand down the B29 so they go into maintenance to repair plane fatigue. Obviously being SR5 planes they donīt repair fast enough to fly twice a week.

Strat bombing is of course integral in the game design or it wouldnīt be rewarded with VPs. If you donīt allow some kind of night strat bombing of the HI you remove a big piece of the VP puzzle and that is obviously going to upset a lot of things. I donīt want to hijack GJs AAR with a discussion about this. He and Q-ball is of course free to do what they want. I just want to point out at that I donīt agree one bit with the notion that Strat bombing at night from extended range is a "instawin button" and GJ is doomed by allowing this.



Jocke, I'm not saying you're misusing anything here! Just trying to get some objective info to players who have not used this stuff in the new beta. Hopefully what we're learning can be useful and players can make choices based on these results.

No one said anything about "instawins" with strat bombing, but it is quite effective in spite of losses. All I'm trying to show is that you've achieved quite a lot, and if your usage was as low as you note here that would be even more spectacular.

After looking through several of my notes on strat bombing I realize we're both a bit off in our perceptions.

Using the B-29-25 from the Marianas you've sent 10 missions to the HI from the first to Tokyo on 12/10/44 until the latest at Hiroshima on 2/11/45. So on average they were one mission every 6.4 days.

Using the B-29-1 you've been going a bit more frequently, with some gaps that perhaps are due to re-basing them? This must be what gave me the idea the missions were more often.

It looks like they were re-based sometime in early September and from the first strike on 9/6 at Singapore until 11/12 at Manila there were 22 missions, and some were within a day or two of each other. So over that 67 days the strike frequency was more like one every 3.1 days.

There was then a break until a strike on 12/1 at Naha. There were 21 strikes from this point until the most recent at Shanghai on 2/16, making it one every 3.7 days over these 72 days.

Sorry to take up space in your AAR Nic but I hope it's useful info as you go forward. I'll post more soon in my AAR detailing the strikes and their effectiveness, as I think it's a part of the game a to of players don't get to see.

_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 3277
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/19/2013 11:21:03 AM   
obvert


Posts: 6816
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

A convoy with 80K supplies and 30k fuel reached Biak. This will probably be the last run in this area. It's getting harder and harder to defend these waters properly. Once unloaded the transports will bring back some troops in order to redeploy them in Luzon and Okinawa.
Another big 100k supplies convoy left Tokyo, heading for Mindanao. 80k supplies are now reaching Singapore and 20k Rangoon... never enough


With all of these bases low are you able to mount LBA strikes effectively?

I think you mentioned turning off fort building everywhere, but another thing that I've noticed lately is that airframe replacements after a massive battle can be catastrophic if done in a frontline base. I've been sending groups to the rear now for any kind of upgrade or to fill groups out after a big loss.

_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 3278
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/19/2013 12:25:17 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6070
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

A convoy with 80K supplies and 30k fuel reached Biak. This will probably be the last run in this area. It's getting harder and harder to defend these waters properly. Once unloaded the transports will bring back some troops in order to redeploy them in Luzon and Okinawa.
Another big 100k supplies convoy left Tokyo, heading for Mindanao. 80k supplies are now reaching Singapore and 20k Rangoon... never enough


With all of these bases low are you able to mount LBA strikes effectively?

I think you mentioned turning off fort building everywhere, but another thing that I've noticed lately is that airframe replacements after a massive battle can be catastrophic if done in a frontline base. I've been sending groups to the rear now for any kind of upgrade or to fill groups out after a big loss.



So true!

After the recent air battles near Ambon (with the CV clash) and Misol, i had to send a lot of groups back to Sosarbaja and Bab in order to replenish their airframes and draw new pilots from reserve.
Unfortunately the need to base a lot of fighters in our frontline bases is obviously causing problems with supplies... i can never use drop tanks and many Air HQs aren't getting any new torps lately.
I'm still using lots of barges and fast xAks to deliver supplies where i can (Makassar and Kendari above all), but we consume much more than what we deliver.
Forts are just too expensive to be built at the present status and once the allies land, the base is lost anyway. So i'm trying to save supplies for the air army in order to remain competitive as long as possible. it's still a long way to Tokyo

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 3279
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/19/2013 12:27:08 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6070
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Thought I should chime in just for the other view.

Shouldn't we look at what has been accomplished in about two months of bombing vs what has been lost while doing it?

The US night bombing of Tokyo was by all accounts immensely devastating, and yet at the end of the war it was estimated that only about 50% of Tokyo's industrial capacity was destroyed by that campaign.

The bombing in our game has been happening for what, two months? Maybe 10 weeks? Since it began the Allies have knocked out just about half of the industrial capacity of Tokyo. The B-29s have also managed during this time to knock out nearly half of the industry in Osaka as well, and there is virtually no industry still producing outside the Home Islands due to night bombing B-29s. So, as with everything in the stock game, the extremes are there on both sides of the equation.


Obviously I canīt say very much here as you are reading. But the price for that has been heavy as you will notice eventually. The exakt numbers are in the AAR for anyone interested. Both damage done and not done including losses are there.

The B29 campaign outside the HI has been going on for a year and not two months. Also worth mentioning:

- The last 3 or 4 raids have caused almost no damage at all despite taking tremendous losses. Almost 3 months worth of replacements for no returns.

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Only Jocke could answer this, but it's also possible that bombing twice a week is too much for the service 5 airframe, and a lot are being lost due to flying with some fatigue and damage. It would help explain why all of the planes that look to only be damaged in the replay are then lost as A to A, although I'm sure the distance is a problem too. It's interesting as a side note that my pilots are not getting the kills for these planes though they are listed as A to A.


I have not been flying twice a week. I have been flying once every 8-12 days since I stand down the B29 so they go into maintenance to repair plane fatigue. Obviously being SR5 planes they donīt repair fast enough to fly twice a week.

Strat bombing is of course integral in the game design or it wouldnīt be rewarded with VPs. If you donīt allow some kind of night strat bombing of the HI you remove a big piece of the VP puzzle and that is obviously going to upset a lot of things. I donīt want to hijack GJs AAR with a discussion about this. He and Q-ball is of course free to do what they want. I just want to point out at that I donīt agree one bit with the notion that Strat bombing at night from extended range is a "instawin button" and GJ is doomed by allowing this.



Jocke, I'm not saying you're misusing anything here! Just trying to get some objective info to players who have not used this stuff in the new beta. Hopefully what we're learning can be useful and players can make choices based on these results.

No one said anything about "instawins" with strat bombing, but it is quite effective in spite of losses. All I'm trying to show is that you've achieved quite a lot, and if your usage was as low as you note here that would be even more spectacular.

After looking through several of my notes on strat bombing I realize we're both a bit off in our perceptions.

Using the B-29-25 from the Marianas you've sent 10 missions to the HI from the first to Tokyo on 12/10/44 until the latest at Hiroshima on 2/11/45. So on average they were one mission every 6.4 days.

Using the B-29-1 you've been going a bit more frequently, with some gaps that perhaps are due to re-basing them? This must be what gave me the idea the missions were more often.

It looks like they were re-based sometime in early September and from the first strike on 9/6 at Singapore until 11/12 at Manila there were 22 missions, and some were within a day or two of each other. So over that 67 days the strike frequency was more like one every 3.1 days.

There was then a break until a strike on 12/1 at Naha. There were 21 strikes from this point until the most recent at Shanghai on 2/16, making it one every 3.7 days over these 72 days.

Sorry to take up space in your AAR Nic but I hope it's useful info as you go forward. I'll post more soon in my AAR detailing the strikes and their effectiveness, as I think it's a part of the game a to of players don't get to see.


No problem Erik! these infos are very usefull for us all!

I'm trying to build as much NF as i can... even if i steamlined the NF production on Irving, Dinah and Randy (with the last two arriving very very late)

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 3280
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/19/2013 1:24:29 PM   
obvert


Posts: 6816
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


I'm trying to build as much NF as i can... even if i steamlined the NF production on Irving, Dinah and Randy (with the last two arriving very very late)


Note that two of the FB groups can only upgrade to NF if they use the Nick Id, so if you don't build that you lose out on about 90+ NF!! I didn't do this, which hurts, but the Randy Ic can use these groups once it actually arrives. Also know that a few of the Dinah recon groups upgrade to the Dinah KAI as well, and at least one FP group upgrades to the Irving line.

_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 3281
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/19/2013 2:28:17 PM   
witpqs

 

Posts: 14494
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Good post, Obvert.

A general observation regarding night bombing HR and B-29: A substantial production run of B-29 in the game is without almost no self-defense armament so as to be faster/carry a heavier bomb load specifically for night bombing. If you have that HR you should mod the scenario (not sure if that one can be done mid-game or not, maybe it can?).


Speculation on my part. But Iīm quite worried these B29 versions will be unusable in the game. Seeing what the NFs do against heavily armed B29s I think there is a real danger the unarmed version might suffer horrendous losses. I guess it comes down to how big a factor the defensive fire is.

I think we will just have to get some experience to tell. Your game is much farther along than mine is, so you first!

_____________________________

Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/site/staffmonkeys/

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 3282
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/19/2013 2:32:40 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 4444
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
I think we will just have to get some experience to tell. Your game is much farther along than mine is, so you first!


Iīm sure you will see loads of sobbing and crying in my AAR if Iīm right!

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 3283
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/23/2013 8:17:14 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6070
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
March 4, 1944

The allies, after having conquered Ramree Is, are now marching with their 1500 AV stack towards central Burma. We have the 55th Division blocking the access and the river crossing...hope it's enough. Reinforcements are arriving tough

In the DEI, on the 3rd a TF composed of 3 SENDAI class CL and 4 DDs managed to sneak at night near Ambon and sunk an xAP, 2 AMs and 4 fat xAKs. Nothing spectacular but everything helps.

Then a series of uncoordinated sweeps from Kendari attacked the americans over the skies near Ambon, trading 1:1 in terms of losses. My sweeps are becoming less and less effective everyday.

The Allies, completely unseen, landed a reinforced Division at Pantar (North of Koepang), supported by 3 or 4 CVs. My bombers didn't fly and the small garrison there will be overrunned easily Tomorrow. With the conquest of Pantar and Wetar, now Lautem, Dili, Koepang and Roti are cut off...and the garrisons there lost for good. We'll probably be able to extract 1 or two regiments but that's all. 3 more divisions lost

What else?...well, nothing much.... 150 more planes are withdrawn ...and i'm spending hours trying to organize the retreat, also trying to keep a decent semblance of strenght in what was my first defensive line.

From Biak we keep on moving back troops and heavy equipments. So far the operation is going pretty well.

Two Fuso Class BBs and 2 CLs, along with the usual small escort, arrived at Bab, reinforcing the naval presence on my second defensive line. The KB remains in the secure waters North-west of Menado.


(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 3284
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/23/2013 9:44:00 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 4444
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
Has he reinforced with something at Ramree that is now moving for your 55th ID?

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 3285
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/27/2013 3:36:27 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6070
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
Mar 05, 06, 07, 1944

Lots of action!

The allies attack at Pantar and got a bloody nose :-) A Naval Guard unit and a base force managed to keep at bay a reinforced Australian Division We won't last long...but it doesn't matter.

On the the allies arrive at Roti. A HUGE fleet!!! CVs, CVEs, BBs, several SAGs in cover and lots of APA/AKA etc... they do not land immediately, while they land a brigade at Sawo-Enlanden (NW of Roti).

The KB was lurking north of Makassar...waiting....

We decided to try our luck once again.

Ordered the KB to steam south of Makassar for the 7th.

50 DBs and 30 Zeros are transferred at Roti, while 120 N1K1s are moved to Lautem-Dili (strange enough Brad forgot to suppress those AFs...).
To Alor (another "forgotten" AF) were moved 100 DBs, 30 Kamis and 30 Zeros).
At Makassar I moved 45 TBs and 60 Frances.

The 7th begins with a massive BB bombardment of Roti..closing the AF and any chance for the airgroups there to take off the next day.

Then the landings begin... another reinforced division lands at Roti, from where we managed to extract the 77th Inf Regiment just in time!

Then the day arrives and the dance begin.

The allied CVs are positioned 1 hex south of Roti, providing LRCAP.
Our CVs arrive unmolested by the hundreds of subs infesting the waters around Makassar... we end up 9 hexes far from the allied CVs...but in range of the Roti and Sawo-Enlanden landings....

At the same time 125 P-47s sweep Sorong, obtaining a HUGE 10-1 result, while an allied bombardment TF ruins my day north of Biak, destroying several planes on the ground...





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amphibious Assault at Roti (67,116)

TF 299 troops unloading over beach at Roti, 67,116

Allied ground losses:
14 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

15 Support troops lost overboard during unload of 7th Australian Div /2
15 Support troops lost overboard during unload of 7th Australian Div /6

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Roti at 67,116

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 13 damaged
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed on ground
D4Y4 Judy: 13 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 2 destroyed on ground
D4Y3 Judy: 43 damaged
D4Y3 Judy: 5 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
BB Valiant
BB Indiana

Japanese ground losses:
406 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 10 destroyed, 9 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 5 disabled
Guns lost 6 (1 destroyed, 5 disabled)
Vehicles lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Airbase hits 11
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 32
Port hits 10
Port fuel hits 6
Port supply hits 1

BB Valiant firing at Roti
BB Indiana firing at Roti


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Manokwari at 85,109

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 22 damaged
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 2 destroyed on ground
A6M5 Zero: 17 damaged
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed on ground
D3A1 Val: 51 damaged
D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-46-III Dinah: 2 damaged
H8K2-L Emily: 27 damaged
H8K2-L Emily: 1 destroyed on ground
D4Y3 Judy: 20 damaged
Ki-84r Frank: 45 damaged
Ki-84r Frank: 1 destroyed on ground
J2M3 Jack: 15 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 8 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
CA Vincennes
CA Minneapolis
CL Perth
DD Reid
DD Ellet
DD Baldwin
DD Dyson
DD Charles Ausburne

Japanese ground losses:
175 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 21 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 8 disabled
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)

Airbase hits 13
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 69
Port hits 15
Port fuel hits 3
Port supply hits 1

OS2U-3 Kingfisher acting as spotter for CA Vincennes
CA Vincennes firing at Manokwari
CA Minneapolis firing at Manokwari
CL Perth firing at Manokwari
DD Reid firing at Manokwari
DD Ellet firing at Manokwari
DD Baldwin firing at 17th/A Division
DD Dyson firing at 17th/A Division
DD Charles Ausburne firing at Manokwari



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Sorong , at 82,107

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 10 NM, estimated altitude 45,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 2 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 54
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 19
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 28
Ki-84r Frank x 19

Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K2-J George: 4 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 3 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D2 Thunderbolt: 7 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x P-47D2 Thunderbolt sweeping at 42000 feet *



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Sorong , at 82,107

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 24 NM, estimated altitude 47,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 41
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 14
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 22
Ki-84r Frank x 17

Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K2-J George: 7 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 5 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D2 Thunderbolt: 3 destroyed

...it goes on like that until I don't have any plane in the air anymore over Sorong....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then at Koepang, my LRCAP were supposed to be on Roti...while they stopped at Koepang to counter the bandits there...this will change the course of the battle later on....


Morning Air attack on Koepang , at 68,116

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 34,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 116
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 10

Allied aircraft
P-38J Lightning x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K2-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 4 destroyed




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Alor the DB took off and attack the allied CVs... a slaughterhouse

Morning Air attack on TF, near Roti at 66,117

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 100 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 33 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 26
D4Y3 Judy x 28
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 21

Allied aircraft
FM-1 Wildcat x 10
F4U-1A Corsair x 40
F6F-3 Hellcat x 88

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 15 destroyed
D4Y3 Judy: 21 destroyed
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 6 destroyed

No Allied losses



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Roti at 66,117

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 111 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 30
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 17

Allied aircraft
FM-1 Wildcat x 7
F4U-1A Corsair x 35
F6F-3 Hellcat x 72

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 19 destroyed
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Koepang , at 68,116

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 75 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 25 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 81
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 4

Allied aircraft
Boomerang C-12 x 23
B-24D1 Liberator x 7
B-24J Liberator x 3
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 22

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Boomerang C-12: 11 destroyed
B-24D1 Liberator: 7 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 2 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 destroyed, 16 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 19

...but my George would have a better use if they stayed over Roti as ordered....




Then the KB attacked...from 8 hexes...very few Judys... but the CAP is somehow lighter than usual....even if the flak is mourderous

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Roti at 67,116

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 110 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 32 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 112
B6N2 Jill x 49
B7A2 Grace x 35
D4Y4 Judy x 58

Allied aircraft
FM-1 Wildcat x 26
F4U-1A Corsair x 33
F6F-3 Hellcat x 55

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 10 destroyed
B6N2 Jill: 10 destroyed, 8 damaged
B6N2 Jill: 2 destroyed by flak
B7A2 Grace: 9 destroyed, 11 damaged
B7A2 Grace: 1 destroyed by flak
D4Y4 Judy: 16 destroyed, 8 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 6 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
FM-1 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
APA Leonard Wood
CL Santa Fe
LSI(M) Prince Henry
APA Harry Lee, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
APA Hunter Liggett
CA Boise, Torpedo hits 3, heavy damage
DD Porterfield
DD David Taylor, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AGC Rocky Mount, Bomb hits 1
APD Gregory
APD Colhoun, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
APD Talbot
APD Crosby
DD Swanson

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 3000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
5 x B7A2 Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
10 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
8 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
5 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 3000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
10 x B7A2 Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
4 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 1000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
10 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
7 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 2000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
3 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 2000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
7 x B7A2 Grace launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
5 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 1000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
6 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
4 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
3 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 1000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
1 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 2000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 3000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 3000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-2 with F4U-1A Corsair (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(34 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
13 plane(s) not yet engaged, 17 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
VF-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(24 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
17 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
VC(F)-41 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(13 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
VOC(F)-1 with FM-1 Wildcat (10 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(14 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
10 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 5000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
VF-42 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(17 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
9 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 52 minutes
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(19 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes


Nothing spectacular...and losses are HIGH....



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Sawoe-eilanden at 65,115

The other amphib TF is left without air cover....

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D4Y4 Judy x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y4 Judy: 5 damaged

Allied Ships
LSI(L) Manoora, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DE Acree, Bomb hits 1, on fire
LSI(L) Denbighshire, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Roti at 67,116 (FROM MAKASSAR)

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 10
B6N2 Jill x 35
P1Y1 Frances x 10

Allied aircraft
FM-1 Wildcat x 9
F4U-1A Corsair x 18
F6F-3 Hellcat x 32

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
B6N2 Jill: 24 destroyed, 1 damaged
B6N2 Jill: 1 destroyed by flak
P1Y1 Frances: 7 destroyed, 1 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
APD King
APA Elmore
AKA Electra
APD Crosby


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Roti at 67,116 (FROM THE KB)

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 118 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 4
B6N2 Jill x 6
D4Y4 Judy x 20

Allied aircraft
FM-1 Wildcat x 5
F4U-1A Corsair x 10
F6F-3 Hellcat x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
B6N2 Jill: 4 destroyed
B6N2 Jill: 1 destroyed by flak
D4Y4 Judy: 11 destroyed, 2 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
CL Santa Fe
DD David Taylor, on fire
AKA Centarus, Bomb hits 2, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
2 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 1000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
3 x D4Y4 Judy releasing from 2000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb



Then the afternoon arrive...skies are clear over Roti...and the KB launches another strike! BANZAI

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Roti at 67,116

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 33 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 92
B6N2 Jill x 79
B7A2 Grace x 34
N1K2-J George x 9

Allied aircraft
FM-1 Wildcat x 23
F4U-1A Corsair x 25
F6F-3 Hellcat x 56

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 7 destroyed
B6N2 Jill: 10 destroyed, 11 damaged
B6N2 Jill: 1 destroyed by flak
B7A2 Grace: 3 destroyed, 7 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
FM-1 Wildcat: 2 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
APD Crosby
CL Santa Fe, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CA Boise, and is sunk
LSD Carter Hall, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
LSD Belle Grove, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
APA Hunter Liggett
LSI(M) Prince Henry
APA Elmore, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Swanson, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
AKA Centarus, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
APA Fayette
APA Harry Lee
APA J. Franklin Bell, Torpedo hits 1
APA Leonard Wood, Torpedo hits 1
APD King, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
APD Talbot
APA Zeilin, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk



Not bad. This time the escort did wonders in keeping the CAP busy...LoBaron is right: having highly experienced pilots on escort helps...even if they die like flies


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Sawoe-eilanden at 65,115

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 92 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B6N2 Jill x 18
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 23

Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
B6N2 Jill: 1 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
LSI(L) Manoora, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
xAP Klang
DE Acree
LSD Lindenwald

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x B6N2 Jill launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Roti (67,116)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 1969 troops, 32 guns, 14 vehicles, Assault Value = 79

Defending force 15963 troops, 218 guns, 177 vehicles, Assault Value = 390

Japanese ground losses:
26 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
6 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
14th Naval Guard Unit
1st RF Gun Battalion
4th JNAF AF Unit
20th JNAF AF Unit

Defending units:
7th Australian Division
II Australian
1st AmphTrac Engineer Battalion
24th Port Maint Engineer Battalion

He landed in force here...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Sawoe-eilanden (65,115)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 4328 troops, 68 guns, 29 vehicles, Assault Value = 124

Defending force 6 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1

Allied adjusted assault: 104

Japanese adjusted defense: 1

Allied assault odds: 104 to 1 (fort level 0)

Allied forces CAPTURE Sawoe-eilanden !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Units destroyed 1

Assaulting units:
13th Australian Brigade
30th Base Group

Defending units:
16th Garrison Unit /1




So the allies are conquering the whole area of Timor. I will just hold Koepang (wanna deny him as long as possible the AF level 9)... the rest can be conquered at this stage. We have already created our second line
Pretty proud to see the KB still able to surprise the enemy...it's almost impossible to catch them while at sea...those transports are always empty when I get on them...but still for every inch of ground he gains
I'm making him pay a price. And that's all about playing Japan.

Air losses of the day were horrendous...450 planes lost and 280 pilots ...Empty pools of Grace, Zeros and Judys...
was it worth? Hard to tell....






Attachment (1)

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 3286
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/27/2013 9:33:16 PM   
obvert


Posts: 6816
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
You got Boise! Of course it was worth it!

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(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 3287
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/28/2013 12:17:00 AM   
Cribtop


Posts: 3578
Joined: 8/10/2008
From: Lone Star Nation
Status: offline
I would expect an Allied surrender now that Boise is down!

Being more serious, it's a good bloody nose. Plane and pilot losses mean you can only do this so often, of course.

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(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 3288
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/28/2013 12:04:29 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 5618
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Air losses of the day were horrendous...450 planes lost and 280 pilots ...Empty pools of Grace, Zeros and Judys...
was it worth? Hard to tell....


Of course it was ... but it also demonstrates the enormous HI and supply usage (not to mention trained pilots) that you need as late war IJ to be able to stay in the game. That was 20K HI in planes and a 1000 game-months of pilot training. You'll need to be able to do this again in about 3 weeks when the allies recover enough to sortie again ... IF you can do this 4 - 5 times ... you can really stall the allied naval advance. Then all you have to do is then stop them on the continent ...

If you could bring in ~500 2E bombers now against that Aussie Div, you would really give the allies fits. Night bombing in that quantity will give adequate results and he's not likely to have NF's around there if you drove off his CV's .... this is when I LOVE the NELL and it's huge range. It is a very effective night bomber if you can mass enough of them.

I'd also fly in part of an HQ so your units aren't fighting with inadequate support, and then maybe try and sneak in an SNLF or two to help out. If you have enough transports while the allied death star is mending, you can give him fits ....

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 3289
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/28/2013 1:53:59 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17828
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline
I'd still be throwing Kamikazes into the mix here, GreyJoy. You're fastidiously ignoring this very capable weapons system at heavy cost to your other branches of service.

Also, keep the big picture in mind. It's March 1944 and he's not even taken Timor? He's waaaayyyy behind schedule. You're doing what you're supposed to.

_____________________________


(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 3290
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/28/2013 2:21:00 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 7033
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Air losses of the day were horrendous...450 planes lost and 280 pilots ...Empty pools of Grace, Zeros and Judys...
was it worth? Hard to tell....


Of course it was ... but it also demonstrates the enormous HI and supply usage (not to mention trained pilots) that you need as late war IJ to be able to stay in the game. That was 20K HI in planes and a 1000 game-months of pilot training. You'll need to be able to do this again in about 3 weeks when the allies recover enough to sortie again ... IF you can do this 4 - 5 times ... you can really stall the allied naval advance. Then all you have to do is then stop them on the continent ...

If you could bring in ~500 2E bombers now against that Aussie Div, you would really give the allies fits. Night bombing in that quantity will give adequate results and he's not likely to have NF's around there if you drove off his CV's .... this is when I LOVE the NELL and it's huge range. It is a very effective night bomber if you can mass enough of them.

I'd also fly in part of an HQ so your units aren't fighting with inadequate support, and then maybe try and sneak in an SNLF or two to help out. If you have enough transports while the allied death star is mending, you can give him fits ....


A note on Japanese pilot pools. I don't think a competent Japanese player need ever worry about pilots pools. Ark and I just wrapped up our four year game with a Japanese surrender on 8/1/45. This was a scen 2 game. He let me look over his map at the end. I was amazed, he was out of ships, out of fuel, out of supply and with him losing over 4000 planes in four weeks, his aircraft pools were getting low. But I almost spat up my coffee when I looked at his pilots. He had jillions of well trained pilots. After four years of total war, I was starting to grow proud of my pilots. I had about a dozen Allied pilots in the 90s experience range and perhaps 200 in the 80s, About 8 of my best aces were between 20 to 28 kills. I had destroyed 40,000 Japanese aircraft with maybe 25k of these as air to air kills. Yet, at the end of the war Ark had at least a 10 to 1 ratio on me of level 90 pilots and I could not count his level 80 and high 70 skilled pilots.

But you are right about the HI cost. Building replacement aircraft cost HI and the pilot HI training costs just killed him. Basically, he was out of HI very early on. (It pays to kill his oil).


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(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 3291
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/28/2013 3:21:30 PM   
obvert


Posts: 6816
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Air losses of the day were horrendous...450 planes lost and 280 pilots ...Empty pools of Grace, Zeros and Judys...
was it worth? Hard to tell....


Of course it was ... but it also demonstrates the enormous HI and supply usage (not to mention trained pilots) that you need as late war IJ to be able to stay in the game. That was 20K HI in planes and a 1000 game-months of pilot training. You'll need to be able to do this again in about 3 weeks when the allies recover enough to sortie again ... IF you can do this 4 - 5 times ... you can really stall the allied naval advance. Then all you have to do is then stop them on the continent ...

If you could bring in ~500 2E bombers now against that Aussie Div, you would really give the allies fits. Night bombing in that quantity will give adequate results and he's not likely to have NF's around there if you drove off his CV's .... this is when I LOVE the NELL and it's huge range. It is a very effective night bomber if you can mass enough of them.

I'd also fly in part of an HQ so your units aren't fighting with inadequate support, and then maybe try and sneak in an SNLF or two to help out. If you have enough transports while the allied death star is mending, you can give him fits ....


A note on Japanese pilot pools. I don't think a competent Japanese player need ever worry about pilots pools. Ark and I just wrapped up our four year game with a Japanese surrender on 8/1/45. This was a scen 2 game. He let me look over his map at the end. I was amazed, he was out of ships, out of fuel, out of supply and with him losing over 4000 planes in four weeks, his aircraft pools were getting low. But I almost spat up my coffee when I looked at his pilots. He had jillions of well trained pilots. After four years of total war, I was starting to grow proud of my pilots. I had about a dozen Allied pilots in the 90s experience range and perhaps 200 in the 80s, About 8 of my best aces were between 20 to 28 kills. I had destroyed 40,000 Japanese aircraft with maybe 25k of these as air to air kills. Yet, at the end of the war Ark had at least a 10 to 1 ratio on me of level 90 pilots and I could not count his level 80 and high 70 skilled pilots.

But you are right about the HI cost. Building replacement aircraft cost HI and the pilot HI training costs just killed him. Basically, he was out of HI very early on. (It pays to kill his oil).



Congrats on the game! Quite an achievement.

Would you consider writing a 'recap' AAR? It would be amazing to see some details on this game after hearing so much over the years.

Amazing he had so many pilots lie that. Maybe he kept a bunch in TRACOM for most of the game and only let them out into the better airframes in the late stages? I certainly don't have those kinds of pilots. A lot of 80s, but no 90s at all. Highest kill ace is 12 kills!


< Message edited by obvert -- 11/29/2013 2:29:03 AM >


_____________________________


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(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 3292
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/29/2013 5:01:16 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 7033
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
I was thinking of writing a summary from the Allied side, but would not want to spend a lot of time writing up something that would just vanish in a few weeks. Don't know how to make it stick around though.

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(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 3293
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/29/2013 7:16:05 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 4444
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
Not many games make it to the end. It would be great to read an account of it!

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 3294
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/29/2013 9:50:06 AM   
viberpol


Posts: 827
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Gizycko, Poland, EU
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Air losses of the day were horrendous...450 planes lost and 280 pilots ...Empty pools of Grace, Zeros and Judys...
was it worth? Hard to tell....

Of course it was ... but it also demonstrates the enormous HI and supply usage (not to mention trained pilots) that you need as late war IJ to be able to stay in the game. That was 20K HI in planes and a 1000 game-months of pilot training. You'll need to be able to do this again in about 3 weeks when the allies recover enough to sortie again ... IF you can do this 4 - 5 times ... you can really stall the allied naval advance. Then all you have to do is then stop them on the continent ...

If you could bring in ~500 2E bombers now against that Aussie Div, you would really give the allies fits. Night bombing in that quantity will give adequate results and he's not likely to have NF's around there if you drove off his CV's .... this is when I LOVE the NELL and it's huge range. It is a very effective night bomber if you can mass enough of them.

I'd also fly in part of an HQ so your units aren't fighting with inadequate support, and then maybe try and sneak in an SNLF or two to help out. If you have enough transports while the allied death star is mending, you can give him fits ....


A note on Japanese pilot pools. I don't think a competent Japanese player need ever worry about pilots pools. Ark and I just wrapped up our four year game with a Japanese surrender on 8/1/45. This was a scen 2 game. He let me look over his map at the end. I was amazed, he was out of ships, out of fuel, out of supply and with him losing over 4000 planes in four weeks, his aircraft pools were getting low. But I almost spat up my coffee when I looked at his pilots. He had jillions of well trained pilots. After four years of total war, I was starting to grow proud of my pilots. I had about a dozen Allied pilots in the 90s experience range and perhaps 200 in the 80s, About 8 of my best aces were between 20 to 28 kills. I had destroyed 40,000 Japanese aircraft with maybe 25k of these as air to air kills. Yet, at the end of the war Ark had at least a 10 to 1 ratio on me of level 90 pilots and I could not count his level 80 and high 70 skilled pilots.

But you are right about the HI cost. Building replacement aircraft cost HI and the pilot HI training costs just killed him. Basically, he was out of HI very early on. (It pays to kill his oil).


Yup... That's me! applause...
But I think this is kind of only scen. 2. related.
With the bitter end such as the '45 is for the Empire, I was just swimming amidst the pilots (especially the Army pilots, as you see on the screen attached ).
I still have a decent navy fighter pilots and this is because of losing the CV rather late.
My HI pool zeroed (135 000 every month taken for training purposes) as early as in August '44 but the pilots were still produced by the training machine.




quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
I was thinking of writing a summary from the Allied side, but would not want to spend a lot of time writing up something that would just vanish in a few weeks. Don't know how to make it stick around though.


Ross, better think of starting a new AAR...

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by viberpol -- 11/29/2013 10:53:12 AM >


_____________________________

Przy lackim orle, przy koniu Kiejstuta Archanioł Rusi na proporcach błysł

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 3295
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/29/2013 10:21:01 AM   
obvert


Posts: 6816
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I was thinking of writing a summary from the Allied side, but would not want to spend a lot of time writing up something that would just vanish in a few weeks. Don't know how to make it stick around though.


I'll at least put it in my bookmarks and I'm sure refer to it in the future. It will be there, just in the background. It is too bad there is not an area for after reports that could be stickied.

_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 3296
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/29/2013 1:13:09 PM   
leehunt27@bloomberg.net


Posts: 412
Joined: 9/6/2004
Status: offline
how about a bullet points, one page summary crsutton? everyone is thirsty for news of a full game till 1945 and what was learned etc.

_____________________________

John 21:25

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 3297
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 11/29/2013 7:44:10 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 7033
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: viberpol

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
Air losses of the day were horrendous...450 planes lost and 280 pilots ...Empty pools of Grace, Zeros and Judys...
was it worth? Hard to tell....

Of course it was ... but it also demonstrates the enormous HI and supply usage (not to mention trained pilots) that you need as late war IJ to be able to stay in the game. That was 20K HI in planes and a 1000 game-months of pilot training. You'll need to be able to do this again in about 3 weeks when the allies recover enough to sortie again ... IF you can do this 4 - 5 times ... you can really stall the allied naval advance. Then all you have to do is then stop them on the continent ...

If you could bring in ~500 2E bombers now against that Aussie Div, you would really give the allies fits. Night bombing in that quantity will give adequate results and he's not likely to have NF's around there if you drove off his CV's .... this is when I LOVE the NELL and it's huge range. It is a very effective night bomber if you can mass enough of them.

I'd also fly in part of an HQ so your units aren't fighting with inadequate support, and then maybe try and sneak in an SNLF or two to help out. If you have enough transports while the allied death star is mending, you can give him fits ....


A note on Japanese pilot pools. I don't think a competent Japanese player need ever worry about pilots pools. Ark and I just wrapped up our four year game with a Japanese surrender on 8/1/45. This was a scen 2 game. He let me look over his map at the end. I was amazed, he was out of ships, out of fuel, out of supply and with him losing over 4000 planes in four weeks, his aircraft pools were getting low. But I almost spat up my coffee when I looked at his pilots. He had jillions of well trained pilots. After four years of total war, I was starting to grow proud of my pilots. I had about a dozen Allied pilots in the 90s experience range and perhaps 200 in the 80s, About 8 of my best aces were between 20 to 28 kills. I had destroyed 40,000 Japanese aircraft with maybe 25k of these as air to air kills. Yet, at the end of the war Ark had at least a 10 to 1 ratio on me of level 90 pilots and I could not count his level 80 and high 70 skilled pilots.

But you are right about the HI cost. Building replacement aircraft cost HI and the pilot HI training costs just killed him. Basically, he was out of HI very early on. (It pays to kill his oil).


Yup... That's me! applause...
But I think this is kind of only scen. 2. related.
With the bitter end such as the '45 is for the Empire, I was just swimming amidst the pilots (especially the Army pilots, as you see on the screen attached ).
I still have a decent navy fighter pilots and this is because of losing the CV rather late.
My HI pool zeroed (135 000 every month taken for training purposes) as early as in August '44 but the pilots were still produced by the training machine.




quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
I was thinking of writing a summary from the Allied side, but would not want to spend a lot of time writing up something that would just vanish in a few weeks. Don't know how to make it stick around though.


Ross, better think of starting a new AAR...


Yeah, I think the HI penalty makes scen 2 a killer for Japan to play. But of course, it is fun for the first year or two... It would be better if the Japanese player could actually control the number of pilots admitted to the training Que. With a default base number going every month but then make it quite restrictive with the Japanese player then paying HI points for any pilots above the base number, so that if the Japanese player "wants" to train a lot of pilots then it has to be expensive and if he wants a very big number of good pilots he will then have to curtail something(shipbuilding, armaments,vehicles, aircraft in order to be able to pull it off.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to viberpol)
Post #: 3298
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 12/1/2013 1:51:19 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6070
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
Erik, Crip, Pax


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Air losses of the day were horrendous...450 planes lost and 280 pilots ...Empty pools of Grace, Zeros and Judys...
was it worth? Hard to tell....


Of course it was ... but it also demonstrates the enormous HI and supply usage (not to mention trained pilots) that you need as late war IJ to be able to stay in the game. That was 20K HI in planes and a 1000 game-months of pilot training. You'll need to be able to do this again in about 3 weeks when the allies recover enough to sortie again ... IF you can do this 4 - 5 times ... you can really stall the allied naval advance. Then all you have to do is then stop them on the continent ...

If you could bring in ~500 2E bombers now against that Aussie Div, you would really give the allies fits. Night bombing in that quantity will give adequate results and he's not likely to have NF's around there if you drove off his CV's .... this is when I LOVE the NELL and it's huge range. It is a very effective night bomber if you can mass enough of them.

I'd also fly in part of an HQ so your units aren't fighting with inadequate support, and then maybe try and sneak in an SNLF or two to help out. If you have enough transports while the allied death star is mending, you can give him fits ....



The cost in terms of HI and supplies is huge. But that was well foreseen. Remember that my strategy has Always been to cut out dramatically ship production since 1942 in favour of planes for what concerns HI usage. The real problem now is my IJN pilots pool. Despite the heavy training system i'm running low of decent DB and TB pilots... and that is becoming a true problem cause the IJA cannot really add its power when it comes to naval interdiction...

Since the beginning of 1943 this has been the 13th big raid in the DEI. And when i say big i mean a raid that costs me more than 400 airframes... it's starting to hurt, even if i've sunk really a lot of good ships...but they just keep coming and, in the last year, my losses have been high also in terms on ships so my overall strenght is really getting low...

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 3299
RE: DEFEAT: The battle of Ambon - 12/1/2013 1:53:54 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6070
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Air losses of the day were horrendous...450 planes lost and 280 pilots ...Empty pools of Grace, Zeros and Judys...
was it worth? Hard to tell....


Of course it was ... but it also demonstrates the enormous HI and supply usage (not to mention trained pilots) that you need as late war IJ to be able to stay in the game. That was 20K HI in planes and a 1000 game-months of pilot training. You'll need to be able to do this again in about 3 weeks when the allies recover enough to sortie again ... IF you can do this 4 - 5 times ... you can really stall the allied naval advance. Then all you have to do is then stop them on the continent ...

If you could bring in ~500 2E bombers now against that Aussie Div, you would really give the allies fits. Night bombing in that quantity will give adequate results and he's not likely to have NF's around there if you drove off his CV's .... this is when I LOVE the NELL and it's huge range. It is a very effective night bomber if you can mass enough of them.

I'd also fly in part of an HQ so your units aren't fighting with inadequate support, and then maybe try and sneak in an SNLF or two to help out. If you have enough transports while the allied death star is mending, you can give him fits ....


A note on Japanese pilot pools. I don't think a competent Japanese player need ever worry about pilots pools. Ark and I just wrapped up our four year game with a Japanese surrender on 8/1/45. This was a scen 2 game. He let me look over his map at the end. I was amazed, he was out of ships, out of fuel, out of supply and with him losing over 4000 planes in four weeks, his aircraft pools were getting low. But I almost spat up my coffee when I looked at his pilots. He had jillions of well trained pilots. After four years of total war, I was starting to grow proud of my pilots. I had about a dozen Allied pilots in the 90s experience range and perhaps 200 in the 80s, About 8 of my best aces were between 20 to 28 kills. I had destroyed 40,000 Japanese aircraft with maybe 25k of these as air to air kills. Yet, at the end of the war Ark had at least a 10 to 1 ratio on me of level 90 pilots and I could not count his level 80 and high 70 skilled pilots.

But you are right about the HI cost. Building replacement aircraft cost HI and the pilot HI training costs just killed him. Basically, he was out of HI very early on. (It pays to kill his oil).




Oh but those are fighter pilots! I litteralry swim in fighter pilots..and lots of them are real aces, with more than 10 kills!
The problem is DB, TB and LNav trained pilots... they die like flies every time you engagé the allied navy (especially in DBB where the allied flak is tremendously effective).

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 3300
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