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RE: THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE

 
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RE: THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE - 9/21/2013 6:02:22 PM   
ny59giants


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quote:

Morning Air attack on Koepang , at 68,116

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 46,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 23 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M3 Jack x 8
Ki-84a Frank x 8

Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 74

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 5 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 4 destroyed

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
19 x P-47D2 Thunderbolt sweeping at 42000 feet
20 x P-47D2 Thunderbolt sweeping at 42000 feet
17 x P-47D2 Thunderbolt sweeping at 42000 feet
13 x P-47D2 Thunderbolt sweeping at 42000 feet


Getting four groups of P-47s there was great for him. Lucky for you, you didn't have much on CAP.

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RE: THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE - 9/21/2013 11:01:44 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
he's bypassing the Boela-Ambon line...smart!


Meh. I'm underwhelmed by the Allied strategic and tactical finesse being shown. It's a full, raw, frontal attack. He's got the power and the willingness to assume extreme casualties to pull it off, but "smart"?

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RE: THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE - 9/22/2013 12:16:53 AM   
paullus99


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He tried "smart" before, but it got him slapped - at least this way, he's forced GJ to commit the vast majority of the IJN to a meat grinder...because of his DD losses earlier, this means that he's basically out of proper escorts.....the next battle will be completely different with the loss of the IJN escort force and battleline.

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RE: THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE - 9/22/2013 2:58:52 AM   
Cribtop


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My question to GJ is whether your strategy is optimal. He is bleeding the IJN, willing to take the losses necessary to achieve the bloodletting. Are you playing into his hands by committing here? I can argue either way, interested in your thoughts.

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RE: THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE - 9/22/2013 3:17:38 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

My question to GJ is whether your strategy is optimal. He is bleeding the IJN, willing to take the losses necessary to achieve the bloodletting. Are you playing into his hands by committing here? I can argue either way, interested in your thoughts.

Yes. Good question. Is letting the Allies bleed you here smart for you? It's a functional brute force strategy for him, but what will your defense look like if you lose most of your battle line fighting for Timor?

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RE: THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE - 9/22/2013 11:49:53 AM   
JohnDillworth


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I think this was a good time and place to use the IJN surface assets. The numbers are fading, but they are buying time, inflicting damage and making you opponent pay a stiff price. Good defense in depth. The outcome is inevitable but you still have the KB and the blue eyed devils have a long way to go

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RE: THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE - 9/22/2013 10:35:43 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
he's bypassing the Boela-Ambon line...smart!


Meh. I'm underwhelmed by the Allied strategic and tactical finesse being shown. It's a full, raw, frontal attack. He's got the power and the willingness to assume extreme casualties to pull it off, but "smart"?



I think that was a smart move. Using the hammer to pin me down at Timor (and bleed me to Death) and, at the same time, advancing on three more vectors (1-Hollandia->Sarmi; 2- Paradrops and barges to flank me from Gorong->Misol->and the area North of Ambon; 3-Ramree Island). That's the way to play the allies imho: divide et impera. Japan can only defend on one single spot in 1944. And he knows that. He's advancing on the cheap, penetrating deep in the Southern DEI, bypassing Ambon and Boela...


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RE: THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE - 9/22/2013 10:37:18 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

He tried "smart" before, but it got him slapped - at least this way, he's forced GJ to commit the vast majority of the IJN to a meat grinder...because of his DD losses earlier, this means that he's basically out of proper escorts.....the next battle will be completely different with the loss of the IJN escort force and battleline.



True. my losses have been horrible. The last battles costed me 5 CAs, several CLs, 2 BBs and an infinite number of DDs. my SAGs are now really weak...while his are getting stronger every time i meet them

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RE: THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE - 9/22/2013 10:45:11 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

My question to GJ is whether your strategy is optimal. He is bleeding the IJN, willing to take the losses necessary to achieve the bloodletting. Are you playing into his hands by committing here? I can argue either way, interested in your thoughts.

Yes. Good question. Is letting the Allies bleed you here smart for you? It's a functional brute force strategy for him, but what will your defense look like if you lose most of your battle line fighting for Timor?



Hard to answer guys. Since the second half of 1943 every time i engaged the enemy i suffered extreme losses. But what shall i do? If i do not engage, i'd let him advance cheaply...and he grows stronger every day so...when will it be the right time to engage? In june 1944, when he's gonna have 4 or 6 more CVs?
To be honest Crib, John and CB, i do think that this was my last call for a more-or-less balanced fight... In two days of battles (Lautem and Kopang) i've sunk 6 or 7 modern enemy cruisers, at least 10/15 Fletchers, 5 CVEs (if i'm not mistaken) and put out of action a modern BB (Washington), for the loss of 2 BBs, 5 CAs, 3 CLs and 24 DDs... could i ask for more in feb 1944?
Don't think so...

Clearly i had hoped to win a CV battle...or maybe get lucky with a sub...but cannot really be upset.My strategic goal now in 1944 is to slow him as much as i can. I cannot stop him. That's a fact. I can only slow him down. And i think, i needed to fight here...far away from his LBA cover...when my fleet was still capable...

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RE: THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE - 9/22/2013 10:47:40 PM   
GreyJoy


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And now let's see what the allies will do Tomorrow. Will they engage? They retired...for the moment... will they be back Tomorrow?


In Burma i think he's ready to attack Ramree... while at Sarmi i managed to airlift most of the 69th Division...now i have 650 AVs at Sarmi, against his 650 AV..... he has far more firepower...but i have forts...i may last some weeks

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RE: THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE - 9/22/2013 11:13:50 PM   
GreyJoy


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Hope this picture is clear enough... You can see the allies bypassing Boela-Ambon line and advancing NW with barges and para-drops...while the advance in NG seems to be stopped at Sarmi for the moment...




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RE: THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE - 9/22/2013 11:18:29 PM   
princep01

 

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Wow, Ser Greyjoy, those are some ferocious battles.  Clearly worthy of notation in Dreadfort's, Annuals of Great Sea Battles.  Even the sailors of Pyke will sing songs to these great battles.

Bolton

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Post #: 3132
RE: THE HEAD OF THE SNAKE - 9/22/2013 11:24:46 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: princep01

Wow, Ser Greyjoy, those are some ferocious battles.  Clearly worthy of notation in Dreadfort's, Annuals of Great Sea Battles.  Even the sailors of Pyke will sing songs to these great battles.

Bolton


:-)
Yes my master... i think not even Robert's Hammer (that, if i remember correctly, destroyed the walls of Pyke during the rebellion of Balon) could match the power of Iowa and New Jersey BBs... but we, just like the drawned men, fought till the very bitter end!


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RE: The battle for Lautem - 9/22/2013 11:29:19 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Odd about CV planes. Sometimes if you're close to the 110% limit any damaged planes count as full cost and reserves are brought into use, thus becomes full cost as well instead of 1/4 cost. That throws the whole mess over the top. That is why I don't completely max my CVs but leave a few extra spaces.

I'd say you did what you have to do here. Although the losses are somewhat equal in my eyes, you show yet again that nothing less than a full fleet invasion will make it through. This slows his process, makes him bring more and never get anything easy. It's a grind and that's tough to maintain.

Keep it up!





You were dead on spot here Erik! That's exactly what happened!! Thanks!!

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RE: The battle for Lautem - 9/23/2013 2:58:32 AM   
ny59giants


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For a 72 plane capacity Japanese CV, I would have 2 fighter, 1 DB, and 1 TB extra for planes.

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RE: The battle for Lautem - 9/23/2013 6:02:15 AM   
koniu

 

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quote:

In two days of battles (Lautem and Kopang) i've sunk 6 or 7 modern enemy cruisers, at least 10/15 Fletchers, 5 CVEs (if i'm not mistaken) and put out of action a modern BB (Washington)


It is game. But i try imagine how impact it will have for politicians and public opinion in US if that battle happen in real world. I will say that it will at best end with tornado in Pacific HQ. Bye bye Mr Nimitz.

If i was a politician(president or someone with power) in US i such situation, not publicly but probably quietly i will start thinking about peace offer to Japan. Something that will make happy both sides. Maybe it is strategilcy allied victory but if i was worker, farmer or taxi driver in US i will only see newspaper headlines.
"30 ships lost in in Indian Ocean. 20000 our brave boys die. When that madness will end" (probably more censorship here needed)

Is not this was major goal for Japan in that time. Make allies loses so big that they decide that fighting for China, Philippines is and rest of region is not worth of those huge loses. In that single battle allies probably would lose something like 10-20000 sailors and soldiers and pilots (10-20% of total KIA loses in real war).

But I am not US citizen so what i can know. And this is game.









< Message edited by koniu -- 9/23/2013 6:25:50 AM >


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RE: The battle for Lautem - 9/23/2013 7:01:07 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

For a 72 plane capacity Japanese CV, I would have 2 fighter, 1 DB, and 1 TB extra for planes.


For a 72 plane CV I keep them at 73-74 in terms of the total number allocated, including spares. So that gives a full count of spare planes to use which makes 2nd strikes able to use the full allotment of extra planes. I'd rather have one less active plane for a full count of spares in order to make sure there are a good number for any late day strikes in a big engagement.

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RE: The battle for Lautem - 9/23/2013 8:45:50 AM   
JeffK


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If i was a politician(president or someone with power) in US i such situation, not publicly but probably quietly i will start thinking about peace offer to Japan. Something that will make happy both sides.

This would not have happened, even if hell froze over!

REMEMBER PEARL HARBOR!!!!

But as soon as the going gets tough we'll throw it in, not likely!

It may have been a common occurrence in Napoleon's days, especially in Europe where you had to continue living with your neighbours. Plus a super weapon (or 2) is in the pipeline.

Nimitz may have been sent to a weather station in Greenland but he'd argue his strategy is good, its the numb brains in charge of the ships are at fault.



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RE: The battle for Lautem - 9/23/2013 9:18:13 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

If i was a politician(president or someone with power) in US i such situation, not publicly but probably quietly i will start thinking about peace offer to Japan. Something that will make happy both sides.

This would not have happened, even if hell froze over!

REMEMBER PEARL HARBOR!!!!

But as soon as the going gets tough we'll throw it in, not likely!

It may have been a common occurrence in Napoleon's days, especially in Europe where you had to continue living with your neighbours. Plus a super weapon (or 2) is in the pipeline.

Nimitz may have been sent to a weather station in Greenland but he'd argue his strategy is good, its the numb brains in charge of the ships are at fault.




I believe in the strength and fortitude of that generation as much as anyone, and I think their convictions would have pushed them through. There would have been some serious deliberations at a high level about the course of the war if these kinds of setbacks occurred on a semi-regular basis though, as they have here.

It's hard for us to know as in those days journalism didn't have the direct and immediate effect it does now, and it was intensely censored for difficult material throughout the war. It's hard to hide the loss of ships though. If there hadn't been a Midway and then these kinds of losses happened on a regular basis, who knows how the war plan would have changed.

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RE: The battle for Lautem - 9/23/2013 10:21:08 AM   
GreyJoy


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The status of my LBA:

Well, losses, as always since mid 1943, have been extreme in the last days. 700 planes lost in less than one week, with 400 pilots gone.
As always the IJN is paying the heavier price, especially in terms of Nav-B and Nav-T trained pilots.
It's really hard to keep a decent LBA with trained enough pilots at this point of the game. The IJN pools are empty...even the schools are empty.
I still have a very good reserve of IJN fighter pilots however... With a lot of crack ones. But the bomber pilots are clearly a problem now.
The IJA is in perfect shape, in terms of pools, but, lacking any decent Dive Bomber, it cannot substitute the LBA IJN in that foundamental role.
The arrival of the Peggy-T in Jan 1944 has opened a window of opportunity and i'm training 160 IJA pilots for the Nav-T role... but I still need one month to get the first class of crews trained at 70 in Nav-T and I don't really have all that time.
The good thing is that, despite the superiority in terms on airframes and pilot quality, my fighter army has managed to keep the enemy bombers at bay. The tactic of leaping from one base to the other, not to give him any "easy" shot, is paying its dividends... even if it's very expensive in terms of self destroyed planes (I do jump to a base and, most of the time, disband those frames that are left damaged in the old base, not to let them being bombed the day after)...

My R&D program is almost over. The SAM is still too far away as I devoted very little effort to its research.
The only fighter i'm still waiting and hope to arrive in time to be a factor is the KI-84b... which should arrive somewhere between June and August 1944. It will be my main bomber killer for the last stage of the war, along with the KI-102b (which should arrive in august).

My fighter line will be composed of J2M5 and N1K2 for the IJN till the end of the war and the KI-84r and the KI-44c for the IJA. Nothing more. Will have to live with those frames and get the best out of them

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RE: The battle for Lautem - 9/23/2013 11:33:23 AM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

quote:

In two days of battles (Lautem and Kopang) i've sunk 6 or 7 modern enemy cruisers, at least 10/15 Fletchers, 5 CVEs (if i'm not mistaken) and put out of action a modern BB (Washington)


It is game. But i try imagine how impact it will have for politicians and public opinion in US if that battle happen in real world. I will say that it will at best end with tornado in Pacific HQ. Bye bye Mr Nimitz.

If i was a politician(president or someone with power) in US i such situation, not publicly but probably quietly i will start thinking about peace offer to Japan. Something that will make happy both sides. Maybe it is strategilcy allied victory but if i was worker, farmer or taxi driver in US i will only see newspaper headlines.
"30 ships lost in in Indian Ocean. 20000 our brave boys die. When that madness will end" (probably more censorship here needed)

Is not this was major goal for Japan in that time. Make allies loses so big that they decide that fighting for China, Philippines is and rest of region is not worth of those huge loses. In that single battle allies probably would lose something like 10-20000 sailors and soldiers and pilots (10-20% of total KIA loses in real war).

But I am not US citizen so what i can know. And this is game.











To be honest I think a cruiser should worth more VPs than 40... how many sailors do die if a CA or CL gets sunk? 40 VPs is like 20 4Es.. I think lives are not well balanced in a VPs optic...but I know the devs have thought a lot about that so I trust them that the system is actually more balanced than what it seems to me

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RE: The battle for Lautem - 9/23/2013 11:39:06 AM   
GreyJoy


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And that's the butcher's bill so far...






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RE: The battle for Lautem - 9/23/2013 11:48:59 AM   
koniu

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
to be honest I think a cruiser should worth more VPs than 40... how many sailors do die if a CA or CL gets sunk? 40 VPs is like 20 4Es.. I think lives are not well balanced in a VPs optic...but I know the devs have thought a lot about that so I trust them that the system is actually more balanced than what it seems to me


Cleveland class CL have ~1200 sailors and officers
Baltimore class CA have ~1150 sailors and officers
Smaller cruisers have ~800-900 sailors and officers
Fletcher class DD have ~330 sailors and officers

They are for sure worth more that 20 Liberators.


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Post #: 3143
RE: The battle for Lautem - 9/23/2013 3:24:48 PM   
GreyJoy


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Jap total air losses so far




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RE: The battle for Lautem - 9/23/2013 3:25:26 PM   
GreyJoy


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Total allied losses so far




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RE: The battle for Lautem - 9/23/2013 3:27:13 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy
to be honest I think a cruiser should worth more VPs than 40... how many sailors do die if a CA or CL gets sunk? 40 VPs is like 20 4Es.. I think lives are not well balanced in a VPs optic...but I know the devs have thought a lot about that so I trust them that the system is actually more balanced than what it seems to me


Cleveland class CL have ~1200 sailors and officers
Baltimore class CA have ~1150 sailors and officers
Smaller cruisers have ~800-900 sailors and officers
Fletcher class DD have ~330 sailors and officers

They are for sure worth more that 20 Liberators.



exactly what I meant Koniu!

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RE: The battle for Lautem - 9/23/2013 4:15:04 PM   
LoBaron


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There always has been a discrepancy between VP points assigned to aircraft as compared to ships. IMHO the VP for ships should at least be doubled, but there always is the possibility of a well hidden cause for them being so low in comparision.

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RE: The battle for Lautem - 9/23/2013 4:23:16 PM   
princep01

 

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Sorry for the intrusion, but could someone kindly tell me when the monsoon season begans and ends?  I cannot find it in the manual.

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RE: The battle for Lautem - 9/23/2013 4:51:08 PM   
princep01

 

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An few observations about casualties and US public opinion during the pacific war.

1.  There, in fact, was quite a buzz about the high casualities in the island hopping strategy (primarily naval/Marine inspired) vs. the lower casualty operations conducted by (primarily the Army) along the New Guinea-Phillipines axis.  Most of this was inter service rivalry supported by the politicans backing Nimitz or MacArthur.  But, it was played out in the press to a marked degree.  Some called for an end to the extremely bloody fighting associated with island hopping beginning with Siapan and on thru Okinawa.  However, none of it arose to a serious call for peace talks as the Allies carried forward with an unbroken string of victories moving ever closer to the Home Islands.  Had the US, in particular, lost some battles as badly as have occurred in this game.....well, maybe the cry for talks would have taken a more serious turn.

2.  During WW2 news reaching the home front was heavily censored by today's standards.  While the US public was provided much more open access to news than say that reaching the ears of Japanese citizens, it was nothing at all like that which emerged during Vietnam.  There were newsreels (highly controlled) shown in movies and whatnot, but not play by play TV coverage appearing nightly as occurred during Vietnam and later.  Personally, bringing the war visually right into home and hearth has had a profound effect on the government's ability to (partially) control home morale.

3.  From a game point of view, I assume that the developers set the VCs based in part on the effect massive losses would have had on public morale, but in a game this large and long, that might not have been a factor.  But, that is why I do play with VCs in mind.  I don't know, but had the landing at a couple of island "hops" (say Saipan and Tarawa) failed with extreme loss of life, I am not certain that a negotiated peace might not have occurred.  I suppose it would have been possible. 
      

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Post #: 3149
RE: The battle for Lautem - 9/23/2013 8:42:17 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

There always has been a discrepancy between VP points assigned to aircraft as compared to ships. IMHO the VP for ships should at least be doubled, but there always is the possibility of a well hidden cause for them being so low in comparision.


I think they're about right for CVs. Which is to say, about triple the durability of the ship (and durability is used for the other VPs)?

If I had to guess, I'd say the devs went with VP value = durability (except for CVs) because it was the simplest way to have a standard system for VPs. Maybe one of them can chime in.

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