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Japanese Aircraft Production: New Realities on Light Bombers

 
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Japanese Aircraft Production: New Realities on Light B... - 6/29/2012 2:23:04 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5537
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I am playing DDC, and not sure if a patch was done or Da Babes is the reason, but you now have to pay PPs to convert IJA Light Bomber units to Medium Bombers. Alot, in fact, 75 for a 12 plane Chutai, and 100 for a 27 plane Sentai.

I'm not complaining about the rule, I like it, probably more realistic. But it does change a bit how you manage aircraft production.

Before this change, I would ramp-up Sally/Helen production, and phase out Light Bombers. They would disappear pretty quickly from the front, except for Training/China, and even then by end of 1942, they would only be used for training. I didn't produce a single one, turning off Sonia production day 1, and just using the stock of Mary/Ann/Sonia you start with.

Now, might have to use them long-term. What do others do with the LB units?

I think I'll probably bite the bullet and convert the Sentais, leaving some units for Training. I'll probably leave the 12-plane Chutais alone, and deploy them to China.

What about production?

--The ANN appears to be the best bomber, actually; heaviest bombload, best range.
--But you can't build it, so do you keep Sonia in production?

I still don't see building the IDA, or using it for other than training.

What is everyone doing with the Light Bomber units?
Post #: 1
RE: Japanese Aircraft Production: New Realities on Lig... - 6/29/2012 2:30:46 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1620
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
use the light bmbr units for ASW training

btw, japanese aircraft production is totally wrong.. needs to be based on aluminum for AC, and steel for ships/tanks

right now developing a mod where you use a spreadsheet based on the AC weight

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Post #: 2
RE: Japanese Aircraft Production: New Realities on Lig... - 6/29/2012 3:09:40 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 10896
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		THAT sounds complicated.

Noticed the same thing regarding bombers. SUCKS. Does make you really think though about your PP options.


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Post #: 3
RE: Japanese Aircraft Production: New Realities on Lig... - 6/29/2012 3:10:09 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1620
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
okay let's play along a bit more..

better to save the HI points and use the "half price" light bmbrs for training

use up the starting engine pools


hitachi(early) for ida
ha-5 for topsy
ha-31 is okay for sonia,
but better to use for your ha-31 for dinah recon planes

use your hikari for B5N1 Kate

let the ki-27 nate factory keep running until you run out of kotobuki,
but convert the kotobuki factory right on dec 7, 1941 to Ha-35

convert all those obsolete engine types to Ha-35 and Ha-32

funny how it is easy to build lots of planes as the japanese, but you have nowhere to put them
so they sit and rot in the pools

that was to answer the question...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

HERE BEGINS MY RANT

the production / research system gives me a big headache
no matter how well you do as japan, you will only have a few units on the map at any one time
and you will be overwhelmed come 1944/1945 no matter what basically

right now i'm playing a scenario 2 game, and it seems like a cartoon next to my mod


in a realistic game, a japanese player should never be asking "where am i going to put all these planes I have"
or "what ships do you cancel to have HI points for AC?"

but more like.. "i hope the allies don't cause a blockade and shut down my flow of duralumin for the aviation industry"

or "wow, i have done so well in 1942.. i managed to stockpile thousands of betties in my rear areas, the USN will have a nasty surprise"


planes and pilots were precious things for the japanese,
but they could re-size and rename their air units as they please.. after all they are just paper


and by the way,

nates were cheap (that's why they produced lots of them as trainers)

betty's empty weight is 6.7 tons, so they could build 4 zeroes, not 2 zeroes for the price of 1 betty, that's why the build so few of them
(and why they cancelled the G5N Liz, it cost 20.1 tons)

but in this game.. a 1.2 ton A5M claude costs the same as a 4.3 ton J7W shinden,
oh and you can melt down the shinano and use the "steel" to build planes with it

the 18 generic HI points per engine is totally ridiculous and incorrect








_____________________________

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Post #: 4
RE: Japanese Aircraft Production: New Realities on Lig... - 6/29/2012 6:06:41 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 778
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poznan, Poland
Status: online 		Light Bombers fly with full bombload from level 2 airfields. Maybe couple Sonias with Oscars (those with 2 x 250 kg bombs) and fly them from level 2 airfields in China on bombing missions? No need to develop airfields. 

(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)
Post #: 5
RE: Japanese Aircraft Production: New Realities on Lig... - 6/29/2012 6:24:32 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7108
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I am playing DDC, and not sure if a patch was done or Da Babes is the reason, but you now have to pay PPs to convert IJA Light Bomber units to Medium Bombers. Alot, in fact, 75 for a 12 plane Chutai, and 100 for a 27 plane Sentai.

I'm not complaining about the rule, I like it, probably more realistic. But it does change a bit how you manage aircraft production.

Before this change, I would ramp-up Sally/Helen production, and phase out Light Bombers. They would disappear pretty quickly from the front, except for Training/China, and even then by end of 1942, they would only be used for training. I didn't produce a single one, turning off Sonia production day 1, and just using the stock of Mary/Ann/Sonia you start with.

Now, might have to use them long-term. What do others do with the LB units?

I think I'll probably bite the bullet and convert the Sentais, leaving some units for Training. I'll probably leave the 12-plane Chutais alone, and deploy them to China.

What about production?

--The ANN appears to be the best bomber, actually; heaviest bombload, best range.
--But you can't build it, so do you keep Sonia in production?

I still don't see building the IDA, or using it for other than training.

What is everyone doing with the Light Bomber units?


To answer your question Q-Ball, the cost to convert between aircraft types was added with the latest official patch (it was added in one of the beta patches long ago). Not sure exactly how the cost is figured, but if you choose to deviate from the official upgrade line, there is a PP cost based on the number of engines and/or aircraft type.

As you have seen, to change your Sonias to Sallys (for example) you pay a PP cost based on aircraft type IIRC. While if you change from Oscars to Nicks, it is based on the number of engines (I think).

As to what you should build...hard to say. In the end you might be best off to leave the Sonia and Ida in production. While both are hopelessly outclassed, you are already producing them so you don't spend HI and supply converting factories. The Ida does have a camera, which makes it slightly better as a recon plane (and you can use it as a light bomber of course). I still try to convert over as many of the light bombers to mediums as practical, as they are just enough better to make it worth the cost.

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Post #: 6
RE: Japanese Aircraft Production: New Realities on Lig... - 6/29/2012 6:10:32 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1620
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

Ida has an empty weight of 1.3 tons

when you understand that a small 9 cylinder radial is a lot cheaper to build than a 14 cylinder or 18 cylinder engine, you see
that the production system is wrong


http://lemairesoft.sytes.net:1945/weben/avion/stats/11067.html#18168


they build Idas, claudes, and nates throughout the war because they were cheap

they didn't build a lot of 2E and 4E because they were expensive

_____________________________

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Post #: 7
RE: Japanese Aircraft Production: New Realities on Lig... - 6/29/2012 6:14:31 PM   
Captain Cruft


Posts: 3648
Joined: 3/17/2004
From: England
Status: offline 		You can also pay PP to convert the light bombers to fighter bombers.

(in reply to Commander Stormwolf)
Post #: 8
RE: Japanese Aircraft Production: New Realities on Lig... - 6/29/2012 10:03:58 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 7043
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Same penalty for the Allies. Single engine to two, or two engine to four costs. Actually a good change as the temptation was to create as many 4E air units as you could. Now it cost PPs. Not too many but enough when you consider that in late 44 I still have many units that need to be bought out and have no PPs in my pools to speak of. So converting aircraft is a low priority for me.



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Post #: 9
RE: Japanese Aircraft Production: New Realities on Lig... - 6/29/2012 11:34:56 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 13933
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I am playing DDC, and not sure if a patch was done or Da Babes is the reason, but you now have to pay PPs to convert IJA Light Bomber units to Medium Bombers. Alot, in fact, 75 for a 12 plane Chutai, and 100 for a 27 plane Sentai.

I'm not complaining about the rule, I like it, probably more realistic. But it does change a bit how you manage aircraft production.

Before this change, I would ramp-up Sally/Helen production, and phase out Light Bombers. They would disappear pretty quickly from the front, except for Training/China, and even then by end of 1942, they would only be used for training. I didn't produce a single one, turning off Sonia production day 1, and just using the stock of Mary/Ann/Sonia you start with.

Now, might have to use them long-term. What do others do with the LB units?

I think I'll probably bite the bullet and convert the Sentais, leaving some units for Training. I'll probably leave the 12-plane Chutais alone, and deploy them to China.

What about production?

--The ANN appears to be the best bomber, actually; heaviest bombload, best range.
--But you can't build it, so do you keep Sonia in production?

I still don't see building the IDA, or using it for other than training.

What is everyone doing with the Light Bomber units?


Hi Q-Ball. I've been thinking about this recently. Early in the game, PPs are at a premium. I can't afford any to convert any units from 1E to 2E. I've been making due with what I have in the pools. Idas and Sonias go to training and Ann and Mary for China and as ASW for the 3 & 5 Air Divisions. I'm getting to a point where my pools are dwindling though. Here's my potential solution:

The Mary uses the Kawasaki (early) engine. There's no need for it for anything else worthwhile and there are 85 in the pool. I'm toying with the idea of producing 85 Marys, for use in China until I can afford the PPs to change the units to 2E. The 3 and 5 Air Division 1 E units will use the Ann and Mary as ASW. The Mary's 5 hex range would be fine. I rarely use ASW over 2 hex range (range 4 for the Mary). I can use up some obsolete engines and have an effective airframe built for half cost.

< Message edited by Mike Solli -- 6/29/2012 11:35:47 PM >

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Post #: 10
RE: Japanese Aircraft Production: New Realities on Lig... - 6/29/2012 11:54:03 PM   
Lcp Purcell

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 5/11/2009
Status: offline 		I am doing my first run through in this incarnation of the game and I am finding the Sonias to be worthless with their 4x50kg bombs. I do have one squadron of 27 Ki-30 Ann's on ASW work, at least their single 250kg bomb can drive Allied subs back to the shipyards for repairs. The Sonias only upset the hull painters. plus the better range of the Ann, helps a lot. The main problem with the Ann is that would be one more engine factory which can't build something more useful.

Did you notice it is a lot cheaper to pull heavy bombers out of a restricted command then it is to convert lights to heavies.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 11
RE: Japanese Aircraft Production: New Realities on Lig... - 6/30/2012 12:03:12 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

Posts: 1620
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

use the sonias for ASW training

then convert them to something else one they are trained

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Post #: 12
RE: Japanese Aircraft Production: New Realities on Lig... - 7/1/2012 2:18:46 AM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1576
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lcp Purcell

I am doing my first run through in this incarnation of the game and I am finding the Sonias to be worthless with their 4x50kg bombs. I do have one squadron of 27 Ki-30 Ann's on ASW work, at least their single 250kg bomb can drive Allied subs back to the shipyards for repairs. The Sonias only upset the hull painters. plus the better range of the Ann, helps a lot. The main problem with the Ann is that would be one more engine factory which can't build something more useful.

Did you notice it is a lot cheaper to pull heavy bombers out of a restricted command then it is to convert lights to heavies.


While the Sonias don't do much damage, they still spot the sub and harass it so it will be less effective at putting torpedoes into your ships. I'll grant you, the Ann is better, but the main purpose of ASW is to locate the sub and raise its DL. Any damage inflicted is just icing on the cake.

(in reply to Lcp Purcell)
Post #: 13
RE: Japanese Aircraft Production: New Realities on Lig... - 7/1/2012 5:54:39 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 5619
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The Mary uses the Kawasaki (early) engine. There's no need for it for anything else worthwhile and there are 85 in the pool. I'm toying with the idea of producing 85 Marys, for use in China until I can afford the PPs to change the units to 2E. The 3 and 5 Air Division 1 E units will use the Ann and Mary as ASW. The Mary's 5 hex range would be fine. I rarely use ASW over 2 hex range (range 4 for the Mary). I can use up some obsolete engines and have an effective airframe built for half cost.

I have the same thought Mike.

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Post #: 14
RE: Japanese Aircraft Production: New Realities on Lig... - 7/2/2012 12:56:29 PM   
Kitakami

 

Posts: 498
Joined: 5/3/2002
From: On the bridge of the DNTK Kitakami
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The Mary uses the Kawasaki (early) engine. There's no need for it for anything else worthwhile and there are 85 in the pool. I'm toying with the idea of producing 85 Marys, for use in China until I can afford the PPs to change the units to 2E. The 3 and 5 Air Division 1 E units will use the Ann and Mary as ASW. The Mary's 5 hex range would be fine. I rarely use ASW over 2 hex range (range 4 for the Mary). I can use up some obsolete engines and have an effective airframe built for half cost.

I have the same thought Mike.


+1

And in Reluctant Admiral (my current game) you have enough engine production at start to dedicate one of the smaller engine factories to build the Kawasaki (early). Not the perfect solution, but probably the most viable PP-wise.

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Post #: 15
RE: Japanese Aircraft Production: New Realities on Lig... - 7/2/2012 3:28:58 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2056
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		I'm surprised how much I see peeps using short ranged LBA as an ASW platform. I use anything short ranged on low sea search 1 to 2 thousand feet and the KI-48's on ASW to cover more area.

My light bombers are all in the rear with the gear on training or used in locations where I'm 100% certain allied fighters won't show up. Because their bomb load is light and they drop like flies the pay off is not worth the pain of helping allied fighter jocks gain points.

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