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Growing up... - 6/28/2012 6:44:47 PM   
GreyJoy


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Ok guys, my sabbatic months are almost over... i feel it's time to get back to witp...back in business so to say

But i feel i need to become a man now....the teen age is over.

And every boy who wants to enter in men's world has to have his private ordaly (?!)....which, in witp terms, means to play on the evil side

So now, my questions are.......well...endless....

Just a couple in order to start...

I've seen there have been a lot of changes in the last months...betas, upgrades, mods, Dababes, Dabebeslite...It's all greek to me!!

Would you be so kind to enlight me a little bit?

I've seen there are new mods using new maps around....are they worth the "risk" of playing a mod?

Which patch should i use to start planning the HUGE japanese first turn?

Thanks in advance for any kind soul that would like to drop a line...

Ciao

GJ
Post #: 1
RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 6:49:15 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 833
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From: Neenah
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No "risk" to a mod. Just make a new install.

DBB-C is pretty good -- especially with the stacking limits. I've found I just can't keep warehousing troops in the same old areas.

Ed-

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RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 6:50:22 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

No "risk" to a mod. Just make a new install.

DBB-C is pretty good -- especially with the stacking limits. I've found I just can't keep warehousing troops in the same old areas.

Ed-


Thanks! How do the stacking limits work? From the DBB site it isn't that clear to me (i'm dumb, i know)

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Post #: 3
RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 6:56:46 PM   
Canoerebel


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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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The promise of a new GreyJoy game and AAR is quite pleasing!

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Post #: 4
RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 6:58:03 PM   
Mundy


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From: Neenah
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Every hex has a max troop level on it, similar to the smaller islands on the "normal" maps.

Even Noumea has something like a 44,000 cap, which can be a pain to the normal way I use that place.

I haven't looked too closely, but I'm guessing you take a good supply hit if you exceed it.

Ed-

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RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 6:58:25 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The promise of a new GreyJoy game and AAR is quite pleasing!


Well, thanks, but first i have to do my homework...meaning study the whole Japanese economy, production, strategies, strenghts and weaknesses....a HUGE task, believe me!

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Post #: 6
RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 7:08:00 PM   
Cannonfodder


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From: the Netherlands
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Remember where you were vulnerable as the allies and where you were strong, and use that...

Industry is ok as soon as you understand the basics. Don't try to do everything in the first week.

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"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor


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Post #: 7
RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 7:09:29 PM   
Canoerebel


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If John III can play as Japan anybody can.  All he does is click a couple of buttons, invade Hawaii or Australia, and watch his Allied opponents perspire.  I've always gotten the feeling that running the Japanese economy can't be very challenging if he does it...






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Post #: 8
RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 7:12:32 PM   
ny59giants


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Any game, whether it is a mod or not, can now use the modified PWHEX files (there are three in total) that use the stacking limits (found at DBB website). There was a certain beta that allowed this to happen, but most players went up to beta r9 or use the official patch now. They can be used even with current games. I did so for my scenario 2 PBEM in early 43.

In clear terrain and in light or heavy urban hexes, there is very high levels of stacking permitted (usually over 200k). In hexes like the jungle/rough along the India/Burma border, it goes down to below 50k. So no more 'death stars' in China by Japan at wars beginning and none for the Allies coming out of India. A full division or Chinese Corp is about 12k to 15k against the stacking limit. There is severe penalties in fatigue and supply consumption if you are over this limit. The fatigue kicks in when that stack is involved in combat. Not much if you are slightly over, but when it was over 40k in my case when I implemented the new Pwhex files, I lost 30k in supplies from that one hex.

Personally, I will not go back to playing a game without the stacking limits as they do add needed realism to a game, IMO. It does make your strategy different in places like Luzon in the beginning as neither Clark or Bataan have the stacking limit to hold all your Allied troops. Manila becomes you last line of bases to hold onto as it can stack all those troops without going over the limit. Batavia has more than Soerabaja, so that base may be a choice on Java.

I like the extended map uses in mods based on DBB format (along with their changes in ASW (no more killer E Class in late war) and AA effectiveness (using Zero on straffing at Pearl wiped out 1/2 of my Zuikaku's Zeros on Dec 7th....Ouch!).

Hope this helped.

Edit - I think using Tracker is a MUST as a Japanese player!

< Message edited by ny59giants -- 6/28/2012 7:16:06 PM >


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Post #: 9
RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 7:47:14 PM   
crsutton


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Coming back! Tell the truth GJ, did your girlfriend leave you?

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Post #: 10
RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 8:03:37 PM   
pws1225

 

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I second ny59giant's opinion on using the map with stacking limits. The stacking limits seem reasonable and reflect the effects of terrain and urbanization on the number of troops that can be supported in any given hex. For example, Clark Field has a stacking limit of 40,000 and Bataan 45,000. Cram too many Allied troops in there and the increased supply consumption more quickly starves them out. I think it's a good addition to the game.

The latest official patch is r9 released in January. Very stable with lots of goodies mostly designed to provide additional info or reduced mouse clicks. Michealm has done a great job. But nothing to fix the 200 passes problem you encountered in the game with rader.

And if playing the Japanese side, Tracker is a must! It helps you see what's going on within the Japanese production system much more easily than the game interface. You can go to the tracker thread and find some helpful videos on what the Tracker screens do for you. Damien put those together IIRC.

Finally, read some of Mike Solli's AARs. He is a guru on all things having to do with Japanese production, initial dispositions of shipping, etc.

Oh, and just a hint, from JFB's perspective the Allies are the Dark Side.

Good to have you back GJ.

Regards, Paul

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Post #: 11
RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 8:05:37 PM   
pws1225

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Coming back! Tell the truth GJ, did your girlfriend leave you?


I think he just wore her out!

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Post #: 12
RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 10:03:32 PM   
GreyJoy


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Thank you guys.
These stacking limits seem really interesting...but also very problematic cause the whole strategy we've learnt under the old maps must be changed completely!

So in a rough terrain you basically simply has to put 50k friendly troops in an hex to practically blockade any further enemy advance? cause i see it very difficult to dislodge a stiff enemy division if you are forced to always play a 1to1 game...am i right?

And what about the AA differencies? What the DBB has changed?

I already use tracker btw...it's a great tool! But gotta say that i still have to stydy the whole japanese part.

However...my former GF broke up with me cause i have been too much "job-oriented" in the last 5 months....now i'm going out with a new girl...10 years younger than me...boy!!! tight skin...elastic tissues (sp?!)...no cellulite...a problem-free brain (or possibly "no-brain-at-all")... THAT'S LIFE!

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RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 10:24:01 PM   
Cribtop


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Welcome back GJ, and welcome to Japan! BANZAI!

Listen to Mike Solli and nygiants59. They are economic ministers par excellance.

My advice as Japan is pick a strategic target and stick to it - don't overreach. Also, recognize that delay and survival are victory on this side.

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RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 10:28:38 PM   
GreyJoy


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thanks crib!
Yup, i'm reading everything i can from ny59 and Mike Solli, along with the damian's japanese economy guide....but i gotta say i'm still very puzzled.

ok, let's start with the basics.... I'd like to play scen2, but i don't like the R&D at all (experiencing Shidens 1,5 years in advance is too much for me!)...but do you think playing with R&D off unbalances the game in s-favour of Japan? I mean...playing an "all-in-all" game...till the very bitter end

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RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 10:34:15 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

However...my former GF broke up with me cause i have been too much "job-oriented" in the last 5 months....now i'm going out with a new girl...10 years younger than me...boy!!! tight skin...elastic tissues (sp?!)...no cellulite...a problem-free brain (or possibly "no-brain-at-all")... THAT'S LIFE!


But is she hairy?

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Post #: 16
RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 10:38:05 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

However...my former GF broke up with me cause i have been too much "job-oriented" in the last 5 months....now i'm going out with a new girl...10 years younger than me...boy!!! tight skin...elastic tissues (sp?!)...no cellulite...a problem-free brain (or possibly "no-brain-at-all")... THAT'S LIFE!


But is she hairy?


not much...plus she has golden hair so it doesn't matter much anyway

But you know....that thing of hair it's just a dream nowdays...so i keep those fantasies just for my inner dreams....

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Post #: 17
RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 10:52:07 PM   
Schanilec

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

However...my former GF broke up with me cause i have been too much "job-oriented" in the last 5 months....now i'm going out with a new girl...10 years younger than me...boy!!! tight skin...elastic tissues (sp?!)...no cellulite...a problem-free brain (or possibly "no-brain-at-all")... THAT'S LIFE!


But is she hairy?


not much...plus she has golden hair so it doesn't matter much anyway

But you know....that thing of hair it's just a dream nowdays...so i keep those fantasies just for my inner dreams....

Does she have sister? If so tell her for me...Once you go Czech you'll never pay cash again.

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RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 10:55:21 PM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

However...my former GF broke up with me cause i have been too much "job-oriented" in the last 5 months....now i'm going out with a new girl...10 years younger than me...boy!!! tight skin...elastic tissues (sp?!)...no cellulite...a problem-free brain (or possibly "no-brain-at-all")... THAT'S LIFE!


But is she hairy?


not much...plus she has golden hair so it doesn't matter much anyway

But you know....that thing of hair it's just a dream nowdays...so i keep those fantasies just for my inner dreams....

haha

So you like to have Bigfoot in your bed?

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Post #: 19
RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 11:06:47 PM   
ny59giants


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quote:

ok, let's start with the basics.... I'd like to play scen2, but i don't like the R&D at all (experiencing Shidens 1,5 years in advance is too much for me!)...but do you think playing with R&D off unbalances the game in s-favour of Japan? I mean...playing an "all-in-all" game...till the very bitter end


Can I suggest playing DaBabes B using Scenario 30?? I'm playing it as Allies vs Olorin (Nick). It's the same thing as Scenario 2 stock, but it was moved over to the DBB mod system. Yes, it is using extended map which doesn't change much and has all the benefits that come with DBB changes. I would suggest that you play with "Realistic R&D ON" as you would be unable to move airframe factories back and forth between production and R&D efforts. Once a R&D factory goes over to production, you cannot change it back.

Like Canoerebel (Dan) stated, John 3rd was able to play Japan successfully. He failed to mention that I took over his economy in his prior epic game vs CR in early 43 when he had almost run it into the ground back in the old WITP days. I got Tracker up and running with Damian looking over my shoulder when needed. I can probably do the same for you.

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RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 11:11:15 PM   
jeffk3510


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GJ...Pax is also an expert in this field too

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RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 11:13:56 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

quote:

ok, let's start with the basics.... I'd like to play scen2, but i don't like the R&D at all (experiencing Shidens 1,5 years in advance is too much for me!)...but do you think playing with R&D off unbalances the game in s-favour of Japan? I mean...playing an "all-in-all" game...till the very bitter end


Can I suggest playing DaBabes B using Scenario 30?? I'm playing it as Allies vs Olorin (Nick). It's the same thing as Scenario 2 stock, but it was moved over to the DBB mod system. Yes, it is using extended map which doesn't change much and has all the benefits that come with DBB changes. I would suggest that you play with "Realistic R&D ON" as you would be unable to move airframe factories back and forth between production and R&D efforts. Once a R&D factory goes over to production, you cannot change it back.

Like Canoerebel (Dan) stated, John 3rd was able to play Japan successfully. He failed to mention that I took over his economy in his prior epic game vs CR in early 43 when he had almost run it into the ground back in the old WITP days. I got Tracker up and running with Damian looking over my shoulder when needed. I can probably do the same for you.



But this scenario 30 it has those stacking limits you mentioned before? Because i'm not that conviced...
Gotta understand which are all the changes made by DBB....

But is the whole R&D necessary? as far as i understood it, even if you don't research any future plane, you are gonna get it anyway when the official date arrives...is that true?

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Post #: 22
RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 11:16:21 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

GJ...Pax is also an expert in this field too


Yup, i know, Pax and PzB... but i don't wanna bother the whole forum spreading PMs around the web ...any help will be really appreciated anyway!!!

It's a whole new game playing japan...

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Post #: 23
RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 11:35:17 PM   
n01487477


Posts: 4719
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

quote:

ok, let's start with the basics.... I'd like to play scen2, but i don't like the R&D at all (experiencing Shidens 1,5 years in advance is too much for me!)...but do you think playing with R&D off unbalances the game in s-favour of Japan? I mean...playing an "all-in-all" game...till the very bitter end


Can I suggest playing DaBabes B using Scenario 30?? I'm playing it as Allies vs Olorin (Nick). It's the same thing as Scenario 2 stock, but it was moved over to the DBB mod system. Yes, it is using extended map which doesn't change much and has all the benefits that come with DBB changes. I would suggest that you play with "Realistic R&D ON" as you would be unable to move airframe factories back and forth between production and R&D efforts. Once a R&D factory goes over to production, you cannot change it back.

Like Canoerebel (Dan) stated, John 3rd was able to play Japan successfully. He failed to mention that I took over his economy in his prior epic game vs CR in early 43 when he had almost run it into the ground back in the old WITP days. I got Tracker up and running with Damian looking over my shoulder when needed. I can probably do the same for you.



But this scenario 30 it has those stacking limits you mentioned before? Because i'm not that conviced...
Gotta understand which are all the changes made by DBB....

But is the whole R&D necessary? as far as i understood it, even if you don't research any future plane, you are gonna get it anyway when the official date arrives...is that true?


GJ -
I see you're reading my econ doc - I know it is not that 2nd language friendly but if you have any Q's I welcome you to contact me. At least I may be able to change to doc to be more readable / user friendly. Actually, the economic side is pretty easy once you've set it up correctly. And in Scen 1 & 2 - it's pretty forgiving.

As for R&D - you are correct you don't need to do any to get the plane on its historical date.

In the mod I'm developing I've done a few things to minimize the huge increased that can be gained by those in the know.

1. Increased the time of availability to fighters/TB/DB. 42 = + 1 mth, 43 = +2 mths etc
2. Rework the upgrades to only one jump. M3 -> M3a or within the same series. This includes LB/DB/TB.
3. Reduce the number of R&D plants available.
4. Change the cost of late war engines (>1000/repair) and have them starting unrepaired.
5. Rework the engines.

All of this can be done through the editor, or if you want just don't touch the R&D...

Cheers

_____________________________

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EconDoc
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Tutes&Java

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Post #: 24
RE: Growing up... - 6/28/2012 11:35:52 PM   
ny59giants


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quote:

But this scenario 30 it has those stacking limits you mentioned before? Because i'm not that conviced...
Gotta understand which are all the changes made by DBB....


Go into the Mod Section and read some of the thread on DBB and the changes they made. Yes, the stacking limits will change the way you play the game. Without them, you to can overrun China with a few super-stacks worth of troops. Later, the Allies will do the same thing to you. Over-running China is too easy without them. It has to be a game you want more or less realism with. I'm not going to try to convince you one way or another.

quote:

But is the whole R&D necessary? as far as i understood it, even if you don't research any future plane, you are gonna get it anyway when the official date arrives...is that true?


Yes, most of the late war planes that you don't want to see 1 1/2 years early will not come in before their actual due date unless you do some R&D. Most have a factory of size 2, which means you need to make an effort get them to produce. You have airframes that most players of Japan don't produce and most of us decide to change those factories over to more useful airframes. The best R&D size factory is a size 30 and you need to spend supply to get them to that size.



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Post #: 25
RE: Growing up... - 6/29/2012 12:00:35 AM   
GreyJoy


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Ok so R&D seems to be a MUST, no matter what. Probably i'll work around some HRs in order to get rid of those nonesense advancing japanese fighters.

Damian, your guide is simply perfect! Very clear and user friendly. Thanks a lot for the effort!

NY59, i understand your points. Above all these stacking limits prevent the allies to steamroll in Burma (i've seen what Andy managed to do against pzB!)... will think about it!

Do the AA changes are interesting? Worth?

What about HRs...what would you suggest? My main concerns are about the air war as usual...i'd like to avoid what me and Rader experienced in late war scenarios....the game simply cannot handle them properly (imho obviously). I'm thinking about limiting the number of planes that can operate from a base to 50*AFsize...so the max will be 500 (which is already a lot!)....

What about the 4Es? No naval attack? I've seen that somebody has recently proposed no 4Es on ground attack mode....what do u think?

And about the mnvr altitude band limit?

Sorry...i realize i'm being a finger up in the ***

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Post #: 26
RE: Growing up... - 6/29/2012 12:26:25 AM   
ny59giants


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quote:

Do the AA changes are interesting? Worth?

Yes, but I don't know the details. I have two games just started (RA and DBB Scenario 30), so I can go only by what I have read and seen in my games.

quote:

What about HRs...what would you suggest? My main concerns are about the air war as usual...i'd like to avoid what me and Rader experienced in late war scenarios....the game simply cannot handle them properly (imho obviously). I'm thinking about limiting the number of planes that can operate from a base to 50*AFsize...so the max will be 500 (which is already a lot!)....

I think it should be 50 engines per AF size. So a level 9 can have 112 4e bombers max. There should be a penalty after that that, IMO. Maybe a few specialized Air HQs for the Allied B-29 fleet. A code change would have to be a limit on number of airframes involved in combat over a single base per day. DBB reduced the number of Aviation Support overall.

quote:

What about the 4Es? No naval attack? I've seen that somebody has recently proposed no 4Es on ground attack mode....what do u think?

I play with no 4e bombers below 10k, no naval attacks (except by USN PB4Ys), and no ground attacks. I read AARs with players using 4e bombers in mainly ground attack missions on a daily basis.

quote:

And about the mnvr altitude band limit?

Some players use the second best mnrv band. I'm doing this...
Fighter Altitude Rules: Combat altitude from:
Dec 1941- May 1942 20,000
June 1942-Dec 1942 25,000
1943 30,000
1944--45 Whatever

PITA (Pain In The A**) We all can be this.


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Post #: 27
RE: Growing up... - 6/29/2012 6:17:58 AM   
Cribtop


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Wow, Pax, I didn't know you had an Econ doc. Thanks for your contribution to the community! . Where can I get a copy?

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Post #: 28
RE: Growing up... - 6/29/2012 7:00:31 AM   
GreyJoy


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Joined: 3/18/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

quote:

Do the AA changes are interesting? Worth?

Yes, but I don't know the details. I have two games just started (RA and DBB Scenario 30), so I can go only by what I have read and seen in my games.

quote:

What about HRs...what would you suggest? My main concerns are about the air war as usual...i'd like to avoid what me and Rader experienced in late war scenarios....the game simply cannot handle them properly (imho obviously). I'm thinking about limiting the number of planes that can operate from a base to 50*AFsize...so the max will be 500 (which is already a lot!)....

I think it should be 50 engines per AF size. So a level 9 can have 112 4e bombers max. There should be a penalty after that that, IMO. Maybe a few specialized Air HQs for the Allied B-29 fleet. A code change would have to be a limit on number of airframes involved in combat over a single base per day. DBB reduced the number of Aviation Support overall.

quote:

What about the 4Es? No naval attack? I've seen that somebody has recently proposed no 4Es on ground attack mode....what do u think?

I play with no 4e bombers below 10k, no naval attacks (except by USN PB4Ys), and no ground attacks. I read AARs with players using 4e bombers in mainly ground attack missions on a daily basis.

quote:

And about the mnvr altitude band limit?

Some players use the second best mnrv band. I'm doing this...
Fighter Altitude Rules: Combat altitude from:
Dec 1941- May 1942 20,000
June 1942-Dec 1942 25,000
1943 30,000
1944--45 Whatever

PITA (Pain In The A**) We all can be this.



PITA....yes, i forgot it...but a finger...a thumb...would probably make the same effect

Anyway, like very much that HR you use for combat altitudes NY!

Today i will study deeply the variations of the DBB scenarios....especially for what concerns AA and stacking limits... You made me think a lot with your suggestions, thanks!

I'm probably going for an R&D ON option, but with an HR that limits the possible advance of R&D planes at no more than 4or 5 months.

I've only played so far with a 2days turn....would you suggest to shift back to a 1day turn pace? Isn't that funnier?

Japanese economy is getting cleared to me every hour....the basis at least....i understood the concept of hubs and the use of convoys...now the difficult part is the A/C production decisions....i probably read everything in the forum abou this subject but still it seems very foggy....everybody thinks different and i have no experience at all that helps me decide which aircraft to produce....is the Lily worth? Some says yes, other don't....i even read somebody who still uses and produces the Sonia!

One last question.... I searched in the mod forum but wasn't able to find a thread about the DBB extended map changes....and the DBB site is pretty cryptic about that too....would somebody be so kind to post a link where to find some deep infos about it?

Still thanks a lot guys! It's a pleasure to be here

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 29
RE: Growing up... - 6/29/2012 10:57:48 AM   
obvert


Posts: 7283
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: online
Another way to learn the japanese economy is to read the first few months of several IJ AARs. Everyone usually spells out what they're doing and gives info on which planes are being researched, etc.

About R n D, as Japan, you can control it. Choose Realistic RnD ON, and then you don't need any HR, just only move things forward as much as you like. Even to get early planes forward a month there is a significant investment in RnD. If you don't care about getting them early, don't invest as much research.

For the planes that arrive in 43 onward, you can pick and choose which you value and want to move forward. With a normal Japanese economy, you won't be able to push more than one ahead more than 6 months anyway. It requires a big investment of supply and HI. So anyone who does do that takes a hit elsewhere, unless they happen to own China AND India while doing it. That is most likely how rader was able to push some planes so far. More resources.

You'll hate it at first, but love it as you go. It's very fun to chose what ships to build, how to allocate your resources and RnD, and setting up the process of getting it all back to the HI. You'll also like starting out on the attack. It is like a tightrope walk and you have to constantly adjust to keep your balance.

_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 30
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