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Vildebeast and drop tanks

 
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Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/26/2012 1:14:05 AM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1319
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline 		When you set the Vildebeast to "use drop tanks", the default load just shows up as the drop tank. Does this mean it cannot carry ordnance when using drop tanks? I would assume that this would be the case - the drop tank is mounted where the torpedo or bombs would have been.

This is an important thing to know as a Japanese player. Early in the game, those Vildebeasts can be a pain in the butt. If they are limited to a four or five hex range (with ordnance), it would greatly change how I route my TFs in the early days of the game.
Post #: 1
RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/26/2012 3:30:32 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5264
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		It's drop tanks or torpedos, not both.

They really aren't good planes, but you have to respect anything that carries a torpedo.

(in reply to Icedawg)
Post #: 2
RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/26/2012 3:42:04 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 9079
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		...and flies at what....80 MPH? Waaaaay too overrated in AE.


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RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/26/2012 6:14:17 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 4427
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

...and flies at what....80 MPH? Waaaaay too overrated in AE.


I beleive that is 82 mph.

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RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/26/2012 6:48:14 AM   
sprior


Posts: 7573
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Nottingham, UK
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quote:

Waaaaay too overrated in AE


It's not the plane, it's the torpedog. They're food for fighters but if you don't have top cover expect a spanking. Just ask various German, Italian and French warship captains. And a fair few U-Boats too (DCs though).

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RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/26/2012 8:31:30 AM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1319
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

It's drop tanks or torpedos, not both.

They really aren't good planes, but you have to respect anything that carries a torpedo.


Thanks. This is what I was looking for.

So, I only have to worry about them out to five hexes. This greatly changes my TF courses early on along the Malayan coast.

(in reply to Q-Ball)
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RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/26/2012 8:33:58 AM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1319
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

...and flies at what....80 MPH? Waaaaay too overrated in AE.



Yes, at least based on their stats. If you look at their numbers in AE, they shouldn't have a prayer of getting through any CAP, but I have had them get through many times.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 7
RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/26/2012 9:00:58 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 4667
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: In a little tin hut in a big tin shed
Status: offline 		Why wouldnt any aircraft on either side not be able to pentrate a CAP.

This is WW2 where most shipping doesnt carry RADAR, no day fighters carry RADAR, read through the many histories where airstrikes managed to get through a CAP. The fighters could be at the opposite bearing from the attack, could be a few clouds around, could be effectivly camoflagued, pilots could be innattentive or the CAP cycling for refueling. There are no E2 Hawkeyes up there providing a Gods eye view of things.

In AE, any non escorted TF that gets too close to a Vildebeeste, Swordfish, Albacore, Jean etc deserves to get a licking.

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Post #: 8
RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/26/2012 12:34:45 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1319
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Why wouldnt any aircraft on either side not be able to pentrate a CAP

This is WW2 where most shipping doesnt carry RADAR, no day fighters carry RADAR, read through the many histories where airstrikes managed to get through a CAP. The fighters could be at the opposite bearing from the attack, could be a few clouds around, could be effectivly camoflagued, pilots could be innattentive or the CAP cycling for refueling. There are no E2 Hawkeyes up there providing a Gods eye view of things.

In AE, any non escorted TF that gets too close to a Vildebeeste, Swordfish, Albacore, Jean etc deserves to get a licking.


I understand that any attack has a chance of getting through CAP. Relative altitudes, prior raids, weather, etc all come into play and the game does an excellent job modeling this.

However, in my experience, this aircraft has an uncanny ability to sneak through considerable CAP (20-30 Oscars) while flying unescorted and still get to the target. Compared to better aircraft (Blenheims, Hudsons, Wirraways), this crappy little biplane seems to get through much more often than they do in similar circumstances. It's almost like this plane is the Boise of torpedo bombers. I couldn't agree more with John 3rd, "Waaaaay too overrated in AE.".

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 9
RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/26/2012 12:49:41 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 11998
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline 		doubt it has something to do with the Vildebeast, it may just be luck or bad luck, depending on which side you play. I have seen Vildebeasts and all other sorts of ancient flying stuff being badly shot up or downed to the last aircraft more than just a couple of times.

In fact, being so slow in the long run you will see far less getting through Cap compared to lets say a fast Havoc flying unescorted.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 6/26/2012 12:50:21 PM >

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RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/26/2012 1:27:28 PM   
Icedawg


Posts: 1319
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

doubt it has something to do with the Vildebeast, it may just be luck or bad luck, depending on which side you play. I have seen Vildebeasts and all other sorts of ancient flying stuff being badly shot up or downed to the last aircraft more than just a couple of times.

In fact, being so slow in the long run you will see far less getting through Cap compared to lets say a fast Havoc flying unescorted.


Yes, you're right. I probably just have really bad luck with regard to these planes. But it doesn't make me feel any better when I realize that these old buckets seem to have a higher likelihood of making it to and hitting the target than my Netties do!

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Post #: 11
RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/26/2012 2:03:27 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sprior

quote:

Waaaaay too overrated in AE


It's not the plane, it's the torpedog. They're food for fighters but if you don't have top cover expect a spanking. Just ask various German, Italian and French warship captains. And a fair few U-Boats too (DCs though).
Warspite1

Out of curiosity did the Vildebeests actually achieve any major successes in WWII? Obviously the Swordfish and the Skua, and to a lesser extent the Albacore had some notable successes, but I can't recall any for the Vildebeest.

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RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/26/2012 6:44:12 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 1367
Joined: 6/3/2006
Status: offline 		Irrespective of the Vildebeast's historical record, old aircraft or stringbags have had dramatic success such as Taranto, Bismark, Malta and the Channel Dash, etc (Oppps, scratch the Channel Dash!) so that such oddball outcomes can be "historical". I never underestimate a old vehicle as a non-thread, I've been run over by to many horse and buggies..... Hal

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Post #: 13
RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/26/2012 7:35:55 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 2118
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I know it may not apply to the Japanese flak, but the Germans had huge problems shooting down those slow British torpedo planes, their timing was meant for faster targets. I expect it was easily remedied though. I believe this anecdote comes from the Bismark battle. I don't know if the Italians tried to flak down the planes at Taranto.

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RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/26/2012 7:46:18 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 10746
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I know it may not apply to the Japanese flak, but the Germans had huge problems shooting down those slow British torpedo planes, their timing was meant for faster targets. I expect it was easily remedied though. I believe this anecdote comes from the Bismark battle. I don't know if the Italians tried to flak down the planes at Taranto.
Warspite1

I have heard that - but do not know the extent to which it is true. If it is true, the Germans got their act together for Operation Cerberus as the slowness of the aircraft did not save Eugene Esmonde VC and his men when attacking the German battlecruisers during the "Channel Dash".

The British Admiral Ramsay later wrote: "In my opinion the gallant sortie of these six Swordfish aircraft constitutes one of the finest exhibitions of self-sacrifice and devotion to duty the war had ever witnessed."

The German Vice-Admiral Ciliax said afterwards: "The mothball attack of a handful of ancient planes, piloted by men whose bravery surpasses any other action by either side that day". Helmuth Giessler said: "Such bravery was devoted and incredible. One was privileged to witness it." Captain Hoffmann said during the attack: "Poor fellows. They are so very slow. It is nothing but suicide for them to fly against these big ships."


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RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/27/2012 7:18:11 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25218
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I know it may not apply to the Japanese flak, but the Germans had huge problems shooting down those slow British torpedo planes, their timing was meant for faster targets. I expect it was easily remedied though. I believe this anecdote comes from the Bismark battle. I don't know if the Italians tried to flak down the planes at Taranto.



Suprise was the biggest element at Taranto followed by it being a night attack. The Italians had no radar guided guns and had to rely on searchlights and barrages once the gunners awoke to what was going down.

The timing issue with German AA mechanisms has been largely discredited by newer accounts. What made them difficult to hit was the rough sea conditions at the time of the attack combined with the fact that the AA crews didn't realize how slow the Stringbags were flying. A third complication was added when Bismarck started zigging and zagging to avoid torps.

In AE, even in my mod (which reduces A2A bloodiness), Swordfish, Albacores much less Vildebeests have a hard time if fighters break throuh to them. In my current PBEM.....the UK Eastern fleet took on a heavily escorted Rangoon convoy....which included the Taiyo and Hosho. Fortunately my escort fighters absorbed most of the enemy CAP but a few broke through and in just a few short "fire rounds" nabbed several+ of my modern stringbags. The rest got through though and while several more were lost to AA....they scored with torps. Not sure if the targets sank. Joe keeps teasing me about KAGA! having been sunk. Of course he was talking about a merchant Kaga-Maru.


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RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/27/2012 10:55:57 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12007
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-NE ? "Cloud Coo-coo land"
Status: offline 		When you consider that Videbeast and Swordfish flew slower then they seemed, then had shells fly through their fabric without exploding , I'm not surprised that they were successful. It's hard enough to get a gunner to lead an aircraft. Once he's finally trained, he's not going to say, "OK , let's forget about all that training and effort to make it habit forming". No, he's going to continue leading as he always does, then wonder why the damned thing doesn't fall down!

And from the fighter point of view, it's damned hard to hit a slow,dramatically manueveing aircraft that's just off the water. I've had that proven to me several times (while riding in that slow,dramatically manuevring aircraft!). The much faster fighter is VERY concerned NOT to fly into the water! (And rightfully so!).

I can accept Swordfish being deadly. I can accept Viderbeast being deadly. I can accept NIGHT-flying PBY's being deadly. But WTF is with those %^&**^%$## Emilys?!!!!

< Message edited by AW1Steve -- 6/27/2012 10:56:35 PM >

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RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/27/2012 11:34:30 PM   
CaptDave

 

Posts: 469
Joined: 6/21/2002
From: Federal Way, WA
Status: offline 		It seems to me that the slower aircraft would also be harder to spot initially, just because the human eyeball picks up quicker on objects in motion than on those that are stationary. The low speeds of the beasts would make them appear like specks of dust on a binocular lens for some time, whereas faster planes -- unless coming directly toward you, 0° on the bow (so to speak) -- will be more noticeable sooner.

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RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/28/2012 3:33:29 PM   
cavalry

 

Posts: 1727
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From: Blackboys East Sussex UK
Status: offline 		They sank BB Nagato in my PBEM in DEI

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RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/28/2012 4:14:18 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25218
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Out of curiosity did the Vildebeests actually achieve any major successes in WWII? Obviously the Swordfish and the Skua, and to a lesser extent the Albacore had some notable successes, but I can't recall any for the Vildebeest.


Not really.....their biggest battle in the SRA was the Jan 26 attack on a Japanse convoy. The old planes were very roughly handled by CAP fighters despite one attack having an escort. 10 Vildebeests were shot down (9 by Ki-27, 1 by a Ki-43) out of approx 20 that attacked in two seperate incidents. They scored no hits IIRC. (will check) It was......to quote the book title....a "Bloody Shambles" but bravely fought. There were some graphic scenes described in battle account that go way beyond the paper stats.




< Message edited by Nikademus -- 6/29/2012 7:51:02 PM >

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RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/29/2012 7:06:41 PM   
HistoryGuy

 

Posts: 76
Joined: 1/7/2009
From: Woodbridge, VA
Status: offline 		CAP altitude settings seem to make a difference. I have had CAP fly a bit higher (in anticipation of dealing with a fighter escort) and had torpedo bombers get in and out without losses. Not often, but enough to spur me to remember to set CAP at medium altitudes AND high altitudes if I have enough planes.

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RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/29/2012 7:12:51 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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quote:

But WTF is with those %^&**^%$## Emilys?!!!!


high speed from powerful engines

good armor

heavy defensive firepower

2 x Torpedoes


.... lot harder to hit a fast moving target than a slow one,
least that's what they said about those cuban migs in angola

< Message edited by Commander Stormwolf -- 6/29/2012 7:14:12 PM >

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RE: Vildebeast and drop tanks - 6/29/2012 9:56:31 PM   
Dan Nichols


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

They sank BB Nagato in my PBEM in DEI


Is this a bit of unintended information?

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Post #: 23
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