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RE: Pricing Hurting Sales?

 
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RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/22/2012 11:37:41 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Because people know that for games that contain that amount of detail that WitE and WitP AE Matrix is the only place that has them. Plus are willing to pay whatever price for them so they do not have to use up the entire basement to play these types of games :) Maybe that is why I find it so hard to understand why people are compliaiong about DW because I own bot WitP AE and WitE.

Also DW is more of a mainstream game in the sense that a lot of people here think that there would be many people interested in it if it were cheaper. Versus not many people would be interested in WitP AE or WitE, even if those games were $10 (or more) cheaper.

But overall, I have paid more for the Civ IV series, HoI 3, Diablo, etc than I did for DW. At least I paid $20 less for the expansions for DW than those that bought them as they came out. Many series (like HoI, etc.) can be bought cheaply with all the expansions for those that waited. So it boils down to, if you wamt to wait, that's fine as there are lots of other games to play. Sometimes, I am willing to wait, while other times I am not. Sometimes i realize that waiting is not going to save me a lot (like for DW) so I take the plunge. I figure it is better to be able to play the game months rather than wait for a sale that may or may not save me much money.

As I said before if $10 or $20 extra dollars rally matters that much, you should not be buying ANY games at all . If you have a set budget for games and you would rather get 2-3 games (that most likely will not be as good imho) versus DW, then that is ok. Nothing wrong about that. But suggesting that Matrix cahnge its business model because a number of people are complianing about the cost is not going to happen.

But you have every right to post and express your views. I fully support your right to do so as there is no right or wrong answers here. Just opinions (and everyone has one lol).

(in reply to Panman)
Post #: 91
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/23/2012 4:55:17 PM   
MartialDoctor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panman

I find it interesting that these discussions dont come up for games like War in the East or War in the Pacific.




My guess is that that is, partly, because those games don't have two expansions, correct? But you do make a good point.

(in reply to Panman)
Post #: 92
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/23/2012 7:06:22 PM   
Das123

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panman
I find it interesting that these discussions dont come up for games like War in the East or War in the Pacific.

They are very much niche games. DW is really much more main-stream.

The niche games have a much smaller and usually more mature audience who are willing to pay for what they want. Compare the degree of general decorum in the Matrix forums in comparison to other forums as a good example of the type of people who play Matrix games.

The thing with Distant Worlds though is that the game itself is much more approachable and attractive to a broader audience than the niche games and so it becomes a question of where does the price resistance point need to be to make the most profit.

(in reply to Panman)
Post #: 93
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/23/2012 11:50:17 PM   
pipewrench


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Beag

Endless Space has something DW has not.

Steam. And some people still say it´s irrelevant and doesn´t impact sales. IMO, even if Steam conditios are harsh, once the game is known, a DW 2 would already have a much larger public looking for it and then ditching Steam wouldn´t be as important.

On a secondary note, Endless Space is also prettier and makes for nice videos to put on Youtube, thus fooling many people (the combat system is silly and late game is all about spam and auto-resolving battles, it seems.)


Speaking from experience, endless space after 20 hours of play becomes a totally boring shell. Research follows the same line in every game to maximize output. The combat system is rock, paper, scissors using a card based 3 turn cycle. No other user input is allowed in combat other than an auto-resolve that becomes boring quite fast. Planet improvements follow the same path with constant micromanagement in systems. The AI saves dust(credits) from the start and when war is declared will spend all the dust saved up to spam fleets at you. If you build up good 1 admiral and assign 1 good fleet of ships to a choke point you can literally kill his kamikaze raids. The events fire it seems on a script routine where if you have too much of something a temporary punishment is enacted. This game while very good visually is going to need a lot of work. It will get better but it has nothing on distant worlds.

< Message edited by pipewrench -- 7/23/2012 11:52:05 PM >

(in reply to Beag)
Post #: 94
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/24/2012 12:45:19 AM   
Kordanor

 

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Today I listened to Three Moves Ahead Podcast. A great strategy game podcast and this time they talked about Endless Space.
Google for "three moves ahead 176" as I am not allowed to link pages yet.

What has this to do with Distant Worlds? Well, they mention the game one time. And guess why? To make fun of it's insane price.
Check 29:00 til 30:00 for that.

Is this the one best thing to be known for?

(in reply to pipewrench)
Post #: 95
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/24/2012 2:04:31 AM   
pipewrench


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Thanks for the link and yes they did snicker about the price but did you listen to the next 2 minutes?

From my impression on what was said, price is dictated on what a game is worth. Most space 4x games go into the discount bin because the story is slapped on after the ships and tech tree are built.

Distant worlds has a story line in my opinion and can command a higher price. Each version brings a new chapter in a book. Start with the first chapter and read on.

here is the direct link :link to audio

< Message edited by pipewrench -- 7/24/2012 2:05:55 AM >

(in reply to Kordanor)
Post #: 96
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/24/2012 10:00:40 AM   
Bleek


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Unfortunately that's not the point, your opinion won't sway the masses, they just see and older 2D game that's more expensive against a modern iteration in full glorious 3D for a indie price.

I agree with you, Endless Space is bland and lacks in many areas, but that doesn't stop it selling!

Also many people struggle to be objective about the price of the product when they purchased it from new or some time ago and at full price.

< Message edited by Bleek -- 7/24/2012 10:05:08 AM >

(in reply to Kordanor)
Post #: 97
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/24/2012 10:02:34 AM   
Bleek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pipewrench
From my impression on what was said, price is dictated on what a game is worth. Most space 4x games go into the discount bin because the story is slapped on after the ships and tech tree are built.


Sorry but that's utter clap trap, ALL games get discounted in time no matter how good/bad they are, ALL of them expect one... DW!

Our question is why, why stifle the brand like this?

(in reply to pipewrench)
Post #: 98
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/24/2012 12:31:05 PM   
pipewrench


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I digress Bleek. Throwing out foolish(claptrap) must be such a waste of your time. I wish you well.

(in reply to Bleek)
Post #: 99
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/24/2012 12:33:43 PM   
Bleek


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This is ridiculous, people arguing against the facts and truth that are evident all around them.

Good luck to you!

(in reply to pipewrench)
Post #: 100
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/24/2012 4:12:56 PM   
ohioastro

 

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Hello all. I bought DW about a year and half ago; I've been thinking about returning, but the pricing model is relevant to me as well.

There are really two aspects to this: what is normal for the industry, and the particular case of this game.

It really is true that the typical model for games series is that expansions are usually bundled with the core game, and people who already have the prior expansions get a discount. This is true for smaller publishers - for example, Paradox with Europa Universalis, or StarDock with Sins of a Solar Empire. It's also true that the online distributors can get very large audiences for game sales. Endless Space just passed the 110,000 sales mark - it wouldn't surprise me if this is a factor of 10 or more above Distant Worlds. (And it is actually a very fun game in a different style than Distant Worlds. Attacking a game with a very different set of goals, as I see happening in this thread, does not give a favorable impression from the outside.) This is partially style, but also partially cost and accessibility.

However, the bigger reason why the current pricing model has not been commented on much. Selling expansions separately makes sense only if the expansions don't fundamentally alter game play - for example, if they are optional scenarios. The user interface of the base game was panned in virtually all of the few game reviews that I saw. This was fixed in the first expansion. I find it inexplicable that the original flawed interface is still available separately. This gives newcomers to an already complex game a very unfriendly introduction. And it's completely needless. Matrix should bundle the DW expansions with the base game for the same reason that companies don't charge for post-release patches.

(in reply to Bleek)
Post #: 101
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/24/2012 5:52:49 PM   
Bleek


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Great post.

I never played the original without Shakturi expansion, and so what you say makes the case for a discount even more apparent!

The biggest driving force for a sale of a game is price, from a survey of over 1,000 UK gamers nearly 40% said they made a purchase only when the price fell below the RRP and not on the release at full price. The second most important element was what their fellow gamers recommended and not particularly the opinions of publications/reviewers.

On one hand DW has it covered with great user reviews and a loyal, but small, fanbase. Yet on the other hand it has a throttling pricing structure that doesn't budge and doesn't do anything to entice new players to the fold.

"But Bleek you already have the game, what do you care!!!"

Why do I care? Because the more people that buy DW, the more development it gets, the longer it stays around and the more we get to enjoy it. It also means a DW2 could be better funded and improve on an already stellar game to produce something awesome.

So for me, appropriate pricing and fresh blood is very important (dare I say critical) to my long term involvement with DW and yours too!

(in reply to ohioastro)
Post #: 102
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/24/2012 5:56:06 PM   
Algoritm


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quote:

As I said before if $10 or $20 extra dollars really matters that much, you should not be buying ANY games at all . If you have a set budget for games and you would rather get 2-3 games (that most likely will not be as good imho) versus DW, then that is ok. Nothing wrong about that. But suggesting that Matrix change its business model because a number of people are complaining about the cost is not going to happen.


While some people don't care about spending a lot more for something they really want, it isn't the case for everyone. Thankfully, a lot of people spend their money sensibly and that doesn't just go for games (think about sub-primes...)

DW may be better than 2 or 3 other cheaper games of the same type combined, but it doesn't justify the base game price, especially when you consider the release date and real value of the base game alone.

Let's turn things around for a change, have matrix made a return on investment from this game? I dearly hope so. In that case, would bundling it and lowering the price make them go bankrupt? No

And if you think that lowering the price will not encourage people to buy the game, you are wrong. There are plenty of people like me who are waiting for the occasion to get their hands on this game.

Price matters, and saying otherwise is a either a lie or an excuse to justify spending more. That is my opinion.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 103
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/24/2012 6:19:06 PM   
Numdydar

 

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All these are good points Algoritm. However, as I mentioned before, they have a legal contarct with the developer. So unlees they can renegoicate the contract the price structure will be fixed. So bundling, price reductions, etc. will all be spelled out in the contract. So this is not something Matirx can do on their own. So if the developer does not want the price to change, then there is NOTHING matrix can do. So unless Code Force people are reading this thread, nothing is going to change.

For all we know, Matrix may have already had discussions with Code Force about the price structure and Code Force said No. Of course the reverse could also be true too, but I doubt it as Matrix is just the distributor. So they would be willing to sell the product for whatever price the developer wanted as long as Matrix got the cut they wanted.

(in reply to Algoritm)
Post #: 104
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/25/2012 4:22:45 AM   
jpwrunyan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kordanor

Today I listened to Three Moves Ahead Podcast. A great strategy game podcast and this time they talked about Endless Space.
Google for "three moves ahead 176" as I am not allowed to link pages yet.

What has this to do with Distant Worlds? Well, they mention the game one time. And guess why? To make fun of it's insane price.
Check 29:00 til 30:00 for that.

Is this the one best thing to be known for?



Rolls-Royce

(in reply to Kordanor)
Post #: 105
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/25/2012 10:26:24 PM   
Algoritm


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It bugs me cause I know that you're right about this Numdydar, whether I'm happy or not about it.

I'm actually starting to think that there may be a sale programmed at the end of this year cause I've noticed the price slowly creeping up lately, which probably means that a price cut will result in the game being same price it was a few months back... ahhhhh the art of making people spend their money while being happy about it

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 106
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/27/2012 4:52:54 AM   
Panman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panman

I find it interesting that these discussions dont come up for games like War in the East or War in the Pacific.




My guess is that that is, partly, because those games don't have two expansions, correct? But you do make a good point.



WitE does have an expansion.

I don't buy the niche vs mainstream mentality. Sure, DW has something in common with other 4x space games ... just like HOI has things in common with WitE and WitP. Shouldn't that make those titles more mainstream? Quality and developer freedom are worth the value. There is a fantasy 4x game by another distributor that sells for around $55 US and has been at that price level since 2006. Matrix is not the only distributor that doesn't reduce prices just because a title is a few years old.

I'm happy DW is around and will continue to support the developer. I am not a fan of steam and regret the day any title goes solely to that distribution service as that is the day I no longer support the title.


(in reply to MartialDoctor)
Post #: 107
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/27/2012 5:03:23 AM   
malkuth74

 

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Since this forum is pretty dead still surprised to see this thread going.

Bundle your product into 1 package for 40 dollars and you will get more sales. Its pretty simple.

The reason guys like me and others have all the games is because I bought the game when it first came out.. Bought the 2nd expansion when it first came out... And bought the third expansion when it first came out.

But I bought them at seperate times.

The standard in industry is to bundle packages together. Its how you make money. And this is the only game I have ever purchased from Matrix Games.. And it will be the only one. I even have a 25% coupon I got for an issue I have.. And I wont use it unless you come out with part 4. Thats it.

I don't like matrix games. Don't like their practices... And if you were smart and wanted to expand your company you would bundle the game. The people that spend full price spend it when the game first comes out.. The others wait.. And if it don't go down.. No sale.. Its a simple concept.

(in reply to Bleek)
Post #: 108
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/29/2012 10:17:01 PM   
lukaszg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MartialDoctor


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panman

I find it interesting that these discussions dont come up for games like War in the East or War in the Pacific.




My guess is that that is, partly, because those games don't have two expansions, correct? But you do make a good point.


At least for me, the reason I'm not complaining about the WitE price (which is incidentally pretty insane at around $80) is that the game appears to be equally insane, requiring me to move hundreds or thousands of units every turn. Although I am a wargamer on occasions, it seems that WitE was not made with me in mind. I *would* be willing to try it out at $30 or less but I'm not holding my breath. WitE is much more of a niche game than DW. I'm fairly sure lots of people who were interested in Endless Space, Sword of the stars etc. would also buy Distant Worlds - if only it was priced like Matrix was actually willing to sell it to the common unwashed masses.

(in reply to MartialDoctor)
Post #: 109
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/30/2012 12:27:01 AM   
Panman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lukaszg
if only it was priced like Matrix was actually willing to sell it to the common unwashed masses.


Maybe that's not their target market? If it takes 3,4, or 5 additional sales from the masses to make up for the one discriminating gamer, why not just keep your focus there? You can't please everyone ... so adding more users is really just going to make it difficult for the game to succeed. ;-)


All of the war game sites I visit and support (Matrix, Shrapnel, Battlefront, HPS, John Tiller to name but a few) all have the same pricing structure and format. Matrix isn't the only distributor that follows this format.

How many console gamers shell out $60 US every year for their favorite sports title?



(in reply to lukaszg)
Post #: 110
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/30/2012 8:20:10 AM   
Bleek


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DW isn't a console game.

DW isn't a blockbuster sports title.

DW isn't niche (there are plenty of 4X games with large fanbases).

These goal posts move around a lot!

The fact of the matter is, all of the DW competitors are cheaper and often considerably so.

The pricing is wrong, it's that simple.

< Message edited by Bleek -- 7/30/2012 8:21:47 AM >

(in reply to Panman)
Post #: 111
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 7/30/2012 8:21:18 AM   
Bleek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: malkuth74

Since this forum is pretty dead still surprised to see this thread going.

Bundle your product into 1 package for 40 dollars and you will get more sales. Its pretty simple.



The forum is quiet because of the price.

And you're right about the bundle, that would inject some life in to the forum and the game.

(in reply to malkuth74)
Post #: 112
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 8/1/2012 1:11:37 AM   
Panman


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Jaguar and Mercedes would sell a lot more cars if they were cheaper too ... consider DW to be the Luxury edition of 4x space games

(in reply to Bleek)
Post #: 113
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 8/1/2012 7:32:03 AM   
lukaszg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panman

Jaguar and Mercedes would sell a lot more cars if they were cheaper too ... consider DW to be the Luxury edition of 4x space games


High price is not enough to make something a luxury item. In addition to the price, luxury items have a) brand recognition and b) higher than average quality. DW has neither of these - while I'm willing to grant DW ambitious design, reading the forums it does seem to have more than its fair share of interface, design and documentation problems. If you really like car analogies, a better one would be Lotus - exotic niche car for driving enthusiasts, unfortunately made out of cardboard and held together by paint and chewing gum.

But you're missing the point we've been making to begin with - DW is not an exotic niche game like say War in the East. There's plenty of substitutes priced much more reasonably. Not exact substitutes but close enough. And when you're Lotus and Toyota makes essentially the same car for 1/5th of the price, you're in trouble.

(in reply to Panman)
Post #: 114
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 8/1/2012 9:46:45 AM   
Bleek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panman

Jaguar and Mercedes would sell a lot more cars if they were cheaper too ... consider DW to be the Luxury edition of 4x space games


You're wrong and missed the point by a country mile.

(in reply to Panman)
Post #: 115
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 8/1/2012 6:13:04 PM   
Gandalf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bleek


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panman

Jaguar and Mercedes would sell a lot more cars if they were cheaper too ... consider DW to be the Luxury edition of 4x space games


You're wrong and missed the point by a country mile.


Actually, he's right on for now. Once a better 4x space game comes out (i.e. competition) that is just as good and is substantially cheaper, the situation will probably change. For now, the owner/developer is probably getting a satisfactory enough financial return that he does not feel there is a need to drop the price whether you as a prospective buyer are miffed or not.

(in reply to Bleek)
Post #: 116
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 8/12/2012 6:16:52 PM   
towerbooks3192

 

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Just got the game and I have to admit that the price is a bit scary and it is the highest I have spent on a space 4x game however I must say that it was well worth it and I could never like my old space 4x games ever again because IMHO this is the deepest one I got and well worth the 80$ with vanilla and the 2 expansions

(in reply to Bebop Cola)
Post #: 117
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 8/13/2012 6:04:14 PM   
Algoritm


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A new expansion is coming out soon. I'm just waiting to see if the lot will be bundled, or if the base game's price will go down (which would more than make sense by now).

If it does, I'll definatly buy it. If not, I'll forget the game ever existed... and I never regret my choices.

(in reply to towerbooks3192)
Post #: 118
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 8/13/2012 7:29:33 PM   
WoodMan


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They did a bundle with the last one, and also they seem to have a sale every November. You had to add all items to the trolley and then you get the discount, so there wasn't an actual "bundle item" to select.

_____________________________

"My body may be confined to this chair, but my mind is free to explore the universe" - Stephen Hawking

(in reply to Algoritm)
Post #: 119
RE: Pricing Hurting Sales? - 8/14/2012 5:57:07 AM   
Gandalf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Algoritm

A new expansion is coming out soon. I'm just waiting to see if the lot will be bundled, or if the base game's price will go down (which would more than make sense by now).

If it does, I'll definatly buy it. If not, I'll forget the game ever existed... and I never regret my choices.


The least you can do when you bold/emphasize a word is to spell check it. It definitely detracts from your point.

(in reply to Algoritm)
Post #: 120
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