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Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War and/or NATO Central Front...;).

 
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Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War and/o... - 6/24/2012 6:03:11 PM   
kipanderson

 

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Hi,

Like all fans of a given wargames engine am keen to see more and more titles. Have Dave and co considered some Cold War setting such as the Yom Kippur War or NATO Central Front at the height of the Cold War.?

Either would be great, but NATO Central Front would get my vote. I realise these things are not undertaken on a whim. But some large scale, high intensity conflict other than WWII would also be good. Just as a one off.

All the best,
Kip.
PS For those practiced in the art am not sure how quick and easy it is to use all the editors. For the novice like me, there is nothing quick and easy about it but still great to have all the editors there.


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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 6/25/2012 1:16:47 AM   
Arjuna


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Short answer is "No we haven't". Both of these conflicts really require us to model helo ops. Once I bed down the COTA Ex Pack I will be modelling realistic mounted ops to support mech and mot inf. But I will be designing this aspect with helo ops in mind. So that could be done after. But there is more to helo ops than just mounted infantry being transported by helo. It also involves attack helo missions, nap of the earth route finding, helo resupply, helo basing and resup, SEAD missions aganst anti aircraft assets, not to mention radar modelling. So it's a pretty BIG undertaking.

Don't get me wrong. I would love to do this but my development strategy is one focussed first on the low overhanging fruit. This doesn't really fall into that category yet. It will be closer though once we have mounted ops under pour belt.

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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 6/25/2012 1:23:58 PM   
rfrizz


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I'd love to see aviation ops modeled, but I can't even think of a good way to do that via interface & gameplay. And I assume that the AI mods would be a bear; you'd probably need to do some virgin code...

These are suguestions offered as pipedreams, but BftB made MY pipedream come true. You are in the business of making pipe dreams come true!

Maybe a WWII Pacific naval sim would be a good step in that direction. Yeah, been done to death, but so has land warfare. But with your philosophy and interface? This could possibly be both a moneymaker AND a learning step.

Ever consider sub-contracting work out? I have doubts about this based on your small, meshed team. But it is, I think, worth at least considering it if you have not already done so.


Regardless, I look forward to the low-hanging fruit, and then the fruit that you have to climb the tree to get.

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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 6/25/2012 9:54:44 PM   
kipanderson

 

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Dave,

That is in fact a very encouraging reply :).

You seem to be saying that one day when the engine has been updated it may happen. I was expecting the enquiry to be politely dismissed ;).

With such a quality engine and all that is now known about the players on both sides in the ‘70s and ‘80s a NATO Central Front game would be fascinating.

All the best,
Kip.



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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 6/26/2012 12:29:40 AM   
Arjuna


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I played the old SPI boardgame NATO Division Commander quite a bit back in the 70s. Trouble is that with the preponderance of tac nukes down to Divisional level on NATO's side and with such a stark and unfavourable balance of conventional power, NATO would have started using the tac nukes pretty quick. They would be best employed against enemy concentrations and there would be no better concentrations than during the initial attacks. Once tac nukes are unleashed it is only a matter of time till the strategic ones are launched and we have armagedan. This was known to both sides and that is why a conflict was avoided in the Cold War Europe. So any realistic modelling of this would probably last no more than four days and end in the big bang. Not sure that's a great game.

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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 6/26/2012 1:06:18 AM   
rosseau

 

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Ironically, I just cracked open book "Red Thrust" by Steven Zagola last night. I agree it is a fascinating (and frightening) subject.

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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 6/30/2012 11:47:10 AM   
kipanderson

 

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Hi,

quote:

NATO would have started using the tac nukes pretty quick...

The great TacNukes debate... ;).

This is one of those questions where people see that same facts; agree on the flow of argument but can’t understand how the other side reaches its final conclusions. I agree with Dave’s analysis, his flow diagram, but because I agree with is conclude that no US President or UK Prime Minister would ever press the button.

All would realise that it was better to lose Europe north of the Rhine and live to fight another day than swap Birmingham Alabama or Glasgow Scotland for Gorky... ;).

The same applies to chemical weapons.

But each to their own.

If not NATO Central Front, which would still be the most interesting from my very prejudiced viewpoint :), then maybe Yom Kippur War?

All the best,
Kip.


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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 6/30/2012 2:06:30 PM   
Arjuna


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So they would consign the bulk of their operational land and air force to oblivion and leave their homeland virtually defenceless. They might as well say the door's open, come on in. In the 1980s the bulk of the operational forces of NATO were in Germany. It's loss would have been an unmitigated disaster. The Soviets knew this and putting themselves in the same position they would have used nukes against such an invasion. This they knew would escalate out of control and hence why no invasion ever came.

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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 6/30/2012 10:22:03 PM   
Central Blue

 

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May I have spotter planes for my artillery battalions first please?

Have played a lot NATO/Warsaw Pact type games over the years. SPI had some great games on the central front and the kitty just loved to move the chits about after they were all stacked up. =Then there was the first computer version of Harpoon . . .

Playing that era is like going back to childhood days with the old Airfix troops on the carpet and playing whatever with whatever boxes you had all mixed together, and the game didn't have to make sense. And it didn't have to have TAC nukes. A General Hackett and Larry Bond and some guy named Clancy wrote books on playing the tactical game without nukes even if tantrums were thrown in the end.

And given the sudden collapse of the Pact and the Soviet Union, it's not unfair to wonder if some games on the central front might be more even than first glance would suggest. One could also point to the success rate of Soviet doctrine and material against the Israelis -- if so inclined.

I have always been fascinated by the immediate post war era up to 1963 or 1964 when the veterans of WWII would have been in charge from the general staff to the senior NCO's. Seems to me the engine would work pretty well up to that era in central Europe, or a tad later in other regions like South Asia.

< Message edited by Central Blue -- 6/30/2012 10:38:13 PM >


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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 6/30/2012 11:01:27 PM   
wodin


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I'm researching cold war a the moment and I have to say that the lack of new American equipment i.e Arty, Anti tank units and Tanks made during the post war and cold war years is very surprising indeed, Russia and Britain constantly bringing out new toys yet the States seemed to be concentrating all their money on nuclear missiles and obviously research stealth tech. Really did surprise me. Take a look at this cold war equip list and see how few time USA is mentioned. Amazed me. Very obvious Russia wanted to do a huge massive invasion taking out everything before any nuclear warheads could or would be released and the NATA strategy was tac nukes.

The fifties and sixties lots of new USA equipment came out, after that it really it wasn't until the late eighties an update programme seemed to be in effect with the odd thing during the seventies and early eighties. Really surprised me anyway. I imagine the States would be consequently brigning out new weapons, they seem to just improve the old versions, I have a feeling it was because a huge part of the defense budget was for nuclear warheads and delivery systems.

If you want to se t a game in the early eighties you have lots of new weapons systems for the Russians and British troops compared to WW2 but very few for the Americans anyhting new seemed to stem from the sixties except the M1.


http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/cold-war-vehicles.asp

< Message edited by wodin -- 6/30/2012 11:08:28 PM >


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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 7/2/2012 4:57:26 PM   
kipanderson

 

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Dave,

Near proximity to the hangman’s noose concentrates minds... ;). In this case near proximity to Armageddon!

That is why I have always believed WMD are unusable against other countries which have them. Far better that most of NWE be overrun and live for the next round. But happily for our generation we will never know.

The armies though were real enough so a conventional show down in which neither side did press the button with your engine would make a great game.

Mid eighties is the tradition setting... :).

All the best,
Kip.






< Message edited by kipanderson -- 7/2/2012 4:58:06 PM >

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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 7/2/2012 5:20:27 PM   
wodin


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Seriously NATO was willing to use them and their whole strategy was based on them. Where as Russia was based on massive conventional firepower winning the War before anyone could act. Russia was all to aware of how disastrous any Nuc exchange would be for them even on Tactical nuke small scale. The States wouldn't mind so much tactical nukes going off in Europe or Russia as they are well a way from any after effects. However it would have been on Russia's doorstep.

I'd like to see the engine in a Cold War setting, but have no Interest in Yom Kippur or any middle east conflict. Convential War in Europe and Alaska. You could factor in small tactical nukes and have equipped troops fighting over the wasteland maybe occupying the ground just after a tac nuke explosion...


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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 7/2/2012 6:02:25 PM   
Bil H


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I think a Cold War setting (mid-80s) could work well in this game, eventually.

I would ignore the tac-nuke aspect and base it on recreating the Air-Land Battle doctrine and using it as an experiment to see if that would have actually worked. Much as was done in the few novels written at the time on this subject. the Third World War (Sir John Hackett), Team Yankee (Harold Coyle), and Red Army (Ralph Peters). They all based their scenarios on tactical battle, maneuver, etc. as I think any COmmand Ops game in this setting would need to do.

There are a few holes in the game right now that would need to be filled before a game in this era (or really any modern game) could be created in the Command Ops engine, here are a few:


  • Helicopter ops, both transport and attack
  • AA modeling at the unit and formation level
  • Armor protection vs HEAT and Sabot need to have different values
  • Penetration capability would need to move from the gun/weapon system, to the round
  • Intelligence system would need an overhaul to account for much more responsive Western Intelligence vs the Soviet model
  • More detailed air support and air defense model, supporting not only helicopters, but ground support AC (A-10), and fast mover attack AC.


So I think we are a ways off on a game like this for Command Ops, at least until Dave gets his military contract.

Personally I would love to see a mid-80s Platoon based game based on NATO's Central Front, including an NTC component. Would be very interesting and would take me back in time as I served during this period.

Bil

< Message edited by Bil H -- 7/2/2012 6:03:55 PM >


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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 7/8/2012 2:50:23 AM   
OldSarge


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If I could add a vote it'd be for Korea 1950-53. This conflict is woefully under explored and the CO game engine is almost perfect for the scale of the typical unit actions. There is enough fodder there to make several games/expansions!


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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 7/11/2012 1:13:46 PM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OldSarge

If I could add a vote it'd be for Korea 1950-53. This conflict is woefully under explored and the CO game engine is almost perfect for the scale of the typical unit actions. There is enough fodder there to make several games/expansions!




I agree, however sale sof previuos games set in Korea don't bode well sadly. Try HPS Squad Battles Korea, not bad, best played PBEM.

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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 7/23/2012 11:25:46 PM   
OldSarge


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I'm afraid that you're right, Wodin. Too bad, it would've been fun trying to recreate the delaying operation against two fully equipped NK Infantry divisions with elements of the poorly equipped 24th US INF Division! Poor TF Smith!

Funny, I've never really checked out the SB series! I'll have to give it a look when I get some time.

Thanks!

< Message edited by OldSarge -- 7/23/2012 11:26:40 PM >

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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 7/24/2012 1:34:59 AM   
GoodGuy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Short answer is "No we haven't". Both of these conflicts really require us to model helo ops. Once I bed down the COTA Ex Pack I will be modelling realistic mounted ops to support mech and mot inf. But I will be designing this aspect with helo ops in mind. So that could be done after. But there is more to helo ops than just mounted infantry being transported by helo. It also involves attack helo missions, nap of the earth route finding, helo resupply, helo basing and resup, SEAD missions aganst anti aircraft assets, not to mention radar modelling. So it's a pretty BIG undertaking.


This is true regarding NATO cold war scenarios.

But the Yom Kippur War featured few helo ops, only, if i am not mistaken. One was operation Gown, where the recon platoon of the IDF paratroopers brigade flew deep inside Syria, where they destroyed a bridge in the tri-border area (Iraq, Syria and Jordan), 300 miles into Syrian territory).
A similar mission, the planned destruction of another bridge, was operation "Kotont", with a misdrop (helidrop 20 miles, instead of 12 miles, away from the target, with the platoon making it to sighting distance, just to figure it was well defended and that the defenders' absolutely outnumbered the platoon and to cancel the mission), subsequent surrounding by Syrian forces and successfull exfiltration. This mission was a failure, because the Syrians had now shifted to protect their bridges, after the first bridge was destroyed. These missions started one day after 11th of October, the day where Israeli forces started pushing towards Damascus, but subsequent missions were not carried out, afaik, since the Syrians had amassed units around vital bridges.

Hebrew -> English translation: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=iw&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrg.co.il%2Fonline%2Farchive%2FART%2F550%2F213.html

The actions to take Mount Hermon involved the Heli-borne Syrian 82nd Paratroop Bn (~300 troops), with 200 troops being dropped half a mile from the Israeli structures and attacking that Israeli outpost, and one Coy (100 troops) providing covering fire.

Recapturing Mount Hermon, operation "Dessert", involved the Israeli Golani Brigade, its 51st mech. Inf Bn, its Recon Coy and "a motorized Bn" (spearheaded by bulldozers and tanks) and paratroopers. The Golani Brigade's mission involved 9 hours of "climbing" on the only narrow access road towards the previously lost outpost, led by bulldozers and tanks, where artillery spilled out a rolling barrage (200 yards ahead). Nadel's 606 Israeli paras (Nadel ordered a drop at the crest, ignoring his superior's orders) were dropped on the crest, worked their way halfway down (neir the outposts), before they were ordered back up. Most of the Syrians had fled, Syrian reinforcements (on trucks) were taken out or captured by the paras. 30 years later, critics argued that the deployment of the paras was not necessary, as the Golani advance had been quite successful. Two Syrian helicopters carrying reinforcements were shot down by IDF aircraft.

Afaik, in the Northeast, there was no other remarkable helo mission during Yom Kippur, also, for the operation at Mt. Hermon, no exfiltration (by helo) would have to be rendered ... so para drops can be depicted the old fashioned way.

When the Egyptian Army started the war/attack, they attempted to land heli-borne commandos to take Israeli outposts at vital chokepoints or at vital routes Israeli reinforcements could use, but some 20 helicopters were shot down by the Israelis, so that the remaining commandos proved to be way less effective than expected, except for those near Beluza and Fort Budapest, they created some confusion on the Israeli side, though. Other advance parties, using the element of surprise, captured a couple of small Israeli outposts, while other Israeli outposts managed to fend off Egyptian attacks for several days, before they surrendered. 1700 commandos were dropped, 740 killed, and 330 became POW. The commandos were either dropped near the chokepoints or off these points so that they had to march to get there and set up ambushes. There are accounts stating that at some points, where the commandos met Israeli reinforcements on their way to the front, both side suffered heavy casualties, resulting in some reinforcements being delayed. Most outposts were overrun by ground units, though.


On the Egyptian theater/side, when the Israeli forces started to advance across the Suez channel, IDF paras helped to establish a bridgehead on the left bank of the Suez channel, so they crossed the channel using boats or rafts afaik, though, means they were employed like regular ground units, no helicopters involved, before Adan's tanks swung south towards the Red Sea.

Since, in the main, the campaign in the Sinai and the campaign in the East and Northeast (against Syrian, Jordan and Iraqi troops and tanks) was pretty much about Infantry/tank and tank/tank combat, and most notably, involving plenty of ground-to-ground rockets (wire guided-AT rockets) operated by Egyptian AT infantry or regular INF which reduced Israel's tank pool tremendously, I don't see the need to render helicopter transports or helicopters providing covering fire, as Yom Kippur was mainly about anything but such mobile heli operations, imho.


< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 7/24/2012 2:34:52 AM >


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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 7/25/2012 1:55:21 AM   
wodin


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Thing is your going to get what no more than 500 people buying a game set in the Yom Kippur War a 1000 sales if your lucky. It juts wouldn't bring the money in or be worth the hours spent on it.

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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 7/25/2012 3:37:24 AM   
Lieste

 

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Yup, Yom Kippur lacks the comedy value of '67...

To paraphrase: "Look at our Bravo Commandos. When we fight the next war it will all be over within a week." - Egyptian footage of military might...
A month later a short sharp war confirms this assertion, just not exactly as meant...

The most interesting thing about '73 for me was the brilliant Egyptian Engineer who recognised that the water from the Suez canal could be used to breach the 'impenetrable' barriers of the Bar-Lev line far faster and more reliably than bulldozers/explosives or any of the other 'obvious' military attacks... Sheer genius. Doesn't translate well into a historical wargame though. Obviously other bits do, and I'd like to see '56, '67, '73 and '82 covered at some point. It obviously becomes difficult to get accurate information the more relevant it is to modern potentialities... but there is lots of interesting stuff.

Sometimes wonder how the Toyota wars would pan-out... maybe have a go at that if mapping becomes easier to the 'trivial' level. Not worth the effort for the limited interest it would have, and purely as an experiment.

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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 7/25/2012 1:21:40 PM   
GoodGuy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Thing is your going to get what no more than 500 people buying a game set in the Yom Kippur War a 1000 sales if your lucky. It juts wouldn't bring the money in or be worth the hours spent on it.


So, you're saying 500 people would buy 1000 copies? Just kidding

Actually, starting with COTA, it seems like Dave developed a faible for the unusual (if not odd) corners/battlefields in history. The Russian theater game that's being researched right now moves on that very same road: An operation some ppl may have heard about, but where the majority of fans will scratch their heads and say "umm ok, but where and when the heck did that take place?". They'll be delighted regarding the fact that an east front game made it to the virtual or real shelf, but quite some of them will be disappointed for the missed opportunities of depicting a Stalingrad scenario (either a full Stalingrad or a post-Stalingrad one, where the Germans would have to try and push towards STalingrad again, once they have corrected the front line), well in case it won't be part of the game.

Releasing what I'd call a MiddleEast/FarEast Collection would gain quite some interest, imho, say if you put those interesting tank/tank and INF/tank battles of Yom-Kippur, Pakistan vs India (massive armour clash with many Shermans and IIRC those light French tanks? involved) and say the border conflict between Russia and Japan 1938/39. The Japs invading the Philipines' main island would also fit in there. It doesn't have to be all post-WWII.

That triggers another idea in my head, a collection (add-on, full game sequel, whatever) could include a collection of amphibious or destroyer-borne invasions/reinforments, with the first parts of the operations Overlord, the Japs starting the Tokyo Express, Iwo Jima, the small Islands like Tarawa, or a what-if Okinawa scenario.

If you pack the right package you get more ppl interested. And this goes to Matrix: AND IF THERE WOULD BE SOME PROPER MARKETING and proper inexpensive but effective online advertizing, then Matrix could actually improve Sales figures. For instance, there are many wargamers here who have never heard about Matrix, and who will just go to the local Media Markt (big chain here like Best Buy, I guess, electronics, household devices, washing machines, 'puters etc.) and buy "some" average wargame, which you can still find there, under all the top-sellers from the majors, but, unlike years ago, they will not be exposed to a single Matrix game in there.

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 7/25/2012 2:10:49 PM >


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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 7/25/2012 1:27:10 PM   
Arjuna


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So Goodguy, when can we expect to see all this content from you?

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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 7/25/2012 1:42:42 PM   
GoodGuy

 

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Hehe, you're the developer who creates the parcel, not me.

I can add ideas how to pack the parcel, though, no?

Plus, I wanted to outline/list operations where/that you don't need to enable the engine to render heli-borne operations.

But with an adequate compensation , I could help with research and scenario design where Axis troops are to be depicted.

Seriously, I know that you don't have enough manpower ..., but I see 3 other obstacles hampering the evolution of your elite product: Number one is the non-existent marketing on Matrix' side, and number two is your faible for the unusual theaters, well imho.
And when you hit another well-known theater (with BFTB) which could have had quite some impact sales figures-wise (with at least some half-assed marketing), you changed the price tag (i don't wanna restart the discussion, all sides put their arguments forward already), where I couldn't help thinking that you put a spoke in your own product's wheel. So that may have been the 3rd one.

I stick to that, though, if I should ever win the lottery I'll redirect some funds to you, to fund additional programmers.

By the way, did you ever offer a military version of your engine to European or US forces? Say the Bundeswehr, British Army or West Point?

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 7/25/2012 6:50:12 PM >


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RE: Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War a... - 7/25/2012 2:10:57 PM   
wodin


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Funny enough if I won the lottery Panther would get some aswell. Though most would go to my new partner in Crime (well game development) Les from Wastelands Panther would def get a share.

< Message edited by wodin -- 7/25/2012 2:11:53 PM >


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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command Ops Series >> Have the powers that be considered Yom Kippur War and/or NATO Central Front...;). Page: [1]
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