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OT: WITP-AE - 6/24/2012 2:08:28 AM   
hfarrish


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I have never been a big Pacific theatre guy but given the love everyone seems to have for WITP-AE I went over to its forum to check it out - and I return terrified. You have to set up how fuel moves between multiple islands and pick the individual transports that move it?

It's obviously an extremely popular game, so should I be afraid to pick it up and take it for a test drive? NB: I don't have a lot of spare time, maybe an hour or two (at the max) per day for gaming.
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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/24/2012 2:48:16 AM   
Phanatik


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Not just fuel. You have to manage supply, oil, fuel, and resources.

It's a logistician's [wet] dream. har har

- Phan

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/24/2012 3:14:57 AM   
Flaviusx


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Definitely an acquired taste. One which I don't have. I played the original WITP back in the day a couple of times and that was good enough for me, and in any case my bias is for continental warfare. That business between Japan and the USA was kind of a sideshow from my viewpoint.



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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/24/2012 3:27:56 AM   
hfarrish


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Side note for you Flavius - any thoughts on books regarding the individual Soviet fighting man other than Ivan's War (which I have...)? I know that there just isn't that much material out there given the literacy rate and reasons for caution that would have limited Soviet soldiers willing to write about their experiences...

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/24/2012 3:47:14 AM   
Footslogger

 

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If you are serious about becoming a follower of WitP-AE, there is a guy here know as Mike Solli and he has spreadsheets and charts of how to manage your resources. Welcome to the Madness!

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/24/2012 4:04:53 AM   
hfarrish


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Ha, that is what I am reading now (a Mike Solli AAR) and it is frightening!

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/24/2012 7:37:56 AM   
usersatch

 

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Spreadsheets are a must, especially late in the war when ships and planes come pouring in.

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/24/2012 9:05:10 AM   
Encircled


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Most of my working life has been in the field of logistics, and I play WITE against the AI.

And its ridiculously complex, but massive fun.

The really good bit about it is that its been tweaked about as well as it can be, and the players work around the obvious problems*

*which are not that major in any case

One of the reasons I started playing it was that I couldn't commit the time to PBEM at WITE due to RL, and playing against the AI isn't any good at all. I can grab a couple of free hours here and there and meander along without feeling any pressure to get a turn out as the AI is quite a challenge.



< Message edited by Encircled -- 6/24/2012 9:06:01 AM >

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/24/2012 2:43:58 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish
You have to set up how fuel moves between multiple islands and pick the individual transports that move it?


Yes There's the auto-convoy option, but no serious WitP AE player uses it (except for bases far in the rear).

The thing is everything is absolutely intermingled. First of all the ships must arrive (fuel and supplies). Then you can start building the airfield, port, fortifications. Engineers will be needed. But of course, you will then need airplanes to protect the base (fighters and then level bombers)... The airplanes will need an AA unit to protect them. They will also need infantry to protect the base... And the infantry will need support (bring support units: base units in the game)...

Then the base will need protection from the sea: mines, surface TFs...

Etc etc

That's the whole thing: it's -again-, totally intermingled... Lots of variables, options, flexibility. Logistics of the highest degree that is. In fact, you will notice most of us love -above all other things- the logistical thing of the game.

Because it is really about logistics (what professionals do, right? ). And from time to time, the firecrackers: naval, land, air battles, amphibious operations...

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 6/24/2012 2:46:19 PM >


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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/24/2012 2:53:47 PM   
PaxMondo


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Scary thing is looking at the number of public AAR's here versus the number of AE AAR's ... actually a sad commentary. I don't know if the number of ongoing public AAR's correlates to games sales well, but if it does .... as old as AE is, there are still so many active AAR's going on. And this is a game that if it goes to conclusion takes +2years of RL.

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/24/2012 3:12:54 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Scary thing is looking at the number of public AAR's here versus the number of AE AAR's ... actually a sad commentary. I don't know if the number of ongoing public AAR's correlates to games sales well, but if it does .... as old as AE is, there are still so many active AAR's going on. And this is a game that if it goes to conclusion takes +2years of RL.


I suspect this game is being played primarily solo, and WITP is mostly being played by PBEM. Quite frankly, this game has serious PBEM problems and the design isn't as mature as the pacific game's, so that is about what I would expect. Whereas WITPAE isn't what I would call a casual or solo friendly game. Anybody playing it is almost by definition a stone cold fanatic. The level of enthusiasm is going to be high, but not necessarily reflective of the numbers who are playing the game.

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/24/2012 3:42:21 PM   
hfarrish


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I haven't seen anything dissuading me from my terror at trying to jump into WITP-AE. I respect those who do it, but given my time constraints I can't imagine I would be able to play it in the way it deserves to be played, particularly since I am a purely PBEM guy.

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/24/2012 4:07:07 PM   
hfarrish


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Part of it, and this is not an original thought, is that everyone accepts that Japan will lose to the US, whereas there is sharp disagreement regarding whether Germany could or could not have won the war - I think this strongly influences player experience in WITE.

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/24/2012 4:22:28 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


I haven't seen anything dissuading me from my terror at trying to jump into WITP-AE. I respect those who do it, but given my time constraints I can't imagine I would be able to play it in the way it deserves to be played, particularly since I am a purely PBEM guy.


If anything, you need some historical knowledge to play the game. Why? Simply because without this knowledge the task is daunting... What do to? An inmense ocean, continents, atolls, islands... And then thousands of ships (literally to the last miserable cargo ship!) that you should be putting to good use...

If you don't have the books no need to spend money. The Hyperwar site has everything (and for free) you might need to know

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/24/2012 9:26:54 PM   
hfarrish


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Thanks TD - much appreciated...I'll start with the books...

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/24/2012 10:20:18 PM   
DivePac88


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WitP-AE is a beautiful game, and once you learn the basics yo will be hooked.

But be warned; that it is also a like very intoxicating drug, and can gobble up your life.

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/25/2012 4:20:11 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Scary thing is looking at the number of public AAR's here versus the number of AE AAR's ... actually a sad commentary. I don't know if the number of ongoing public AAR's correlates to games sales well, but if it does .... as old as AE is, there are still so many active AAR's going on. And this is a game that if it goes to conclusion takes +2years of RL.


I suspect this game is being played primarily solo, and WITP is mostly being played by PBEM. Quite frankly, this game has serious PBEM problems and the design isn't as mature as the pacific game's, so that is about what I would expect. Whereas WITPAE isn't what I would call a casual or solo friendly game. Anybody playing it is almost by definition a stone cold fanatic. The level of enthusiasm is going to be high, but not necessarily reflective of the numbers who are playing the game.

Flaviusx,

Good points, and I have no idea as to numbers.

I only play AI as I can't get the time to commit to a PBEM, and I would really like to. I know several other 'veteran' posters in the same boat. According to comments the AE devs have made in the past, AI players outnumber the PBEM players by a wide margin ... but does that mean there are 20 of us or 26?

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/25/2012 4:26:55 AM   
Q-Ball


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I have played both pretty extensively. I played WITE when it came out, and I think had a couple pretty popular AARs and was a frequent contributor here on this forum. And I like WITE alot still, it's a very good game.....

...but WITP_AE is better. It's much more involved, and much more complex, but has a strategic depth that WITE doesn't have at this point.

Maybe it's the nature of Eastern Front warfare, but WITE right now devovles into a WWI smashing after awhile, with some mobile breakouts, but still centered on a single line along the whole front.

WITP AE isn't about front lines.....there is a strategic depth beyond that, that centers more on supplies, the operating radius of various aircraft, and the fleet.

It took 6 years though to get WITP-AE to that level of depth. Given a couple more years of development, I think WITE and it's future iterations can get there......and will. I am just impatient and dont' want to wait.

WITE is a great game, but WITP-AE is better. That could absolutely change down the road, to the better for WITE, but that's the way it is now, IMO.

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Post #: 18
RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/25/2012 3:14:46 PM   
bjmorgan


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AE is the best game ever designed (well, redesigned). Period.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/25/2012 4:14:56 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish
It's obviously an extremely popular game...


...among a miniscule niche of hard-core logistics fanatics...

I wish I could find a game I loved so much, but it definitely doesn't sound like WitP-AE is it. The closest game for me was Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin.




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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/25/2012 5:04:06 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Scary thing is looking at the number of public AAR's here versus the number of AE AAR's ... actually a sad commentary. I don't know if the number of ongoing public AAR's correlates to games sales well, but if it does .... as old as AE is, there are still so many active AAR's going on. And this is a game that if it goes to conclusion takes +2years of RL.


I suspect this game is being played primarily solo, and WITP is mostly being played by PBEM. Quite frankly, this game has serious PBEM problems and the design isn't as mature as the pacific game's, so that is about what I would expect. Whereas WITPAE isn't what I would call a casual or solo friendly game. Anybody playing it is almost by definition a stone cold fanatic. The level of enthusiasm is going to be high, but not necessarily reflective of the numbers who are playing the game.

Flaviusx,

Good points, and I have no idea as to numbers.

I only play AI as I can't get the time to commit to a PBEM, and I would really like to. I know several other 'veteran' posters in the same boat. According to comments the AE devs have made in the past, AI players outnumber the PBEM players by a wide margin ... but does that mean there are 20 of us or 26?


Matrix never publish the sales they're doing

But years ago in the WitP forum someone from the company had publicly said the dwellers of the forum only made 1/10 of all the players (aka the clients).

Among this 1/10 many are only AI players (like me). So the overwhelming majority are indeed playing vs the AI.

I suspect it's basically the same with WitE. A much better game if we think about PBEM though. I only stayed away from PBEM in WitP because it is a huge committment I am not ready to respect! One turn every single day, and this for two years minimum! I should be really drunk to sign this contract (à la Faust with the devil?)

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/25/2012 8:15:31 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

AE is the best game ever designed (well, redesigned). Period.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.



+1 here.


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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/25/2012 8:35:10 PM   
RCH


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I went ahead and bought WITP-AE two or 3 months back. It is a monster of a game. What I like about it so far is that there are smaller scenarios. I have played Coral Sea and Guadalcanal. Even thought the smaller scenarios don't fully show all what the game is capable of they are very good and interesting fights.

So you don't need to know all the ins and outs to play the game. I will probably be sticking with smaller scenarios for a while.

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 6/26/2012 6:32:40 PM   
cavalry

 

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AE is still probably the best game - ever ...

But when WITP came out I thought that was good - then AE toppled it right over.

Now that leads me to WITE - We all think its pretty neat and it is but if there is ever a WITE 2 and the difference is as much as WITP v AE then this version of wite will be consigned to history.

The main thing I still do not like about this game is no replay. watching the replay in AE is part of the ride. You see your opponents tactics and remember the flow of what is happening without this is half the pleasure ( learning) is gone but that is the way it is I guess.

The main thing that will stop new players getting into AE is no updated manual for a looong time. We are real lucky this game is being updated as it goes.

Cav

< Message edited by cavalry -- 6/26/2012 6:33:42 PM >

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 7/6/2012 8:02:42 PM   
jnpoint


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish


I have never been a big Pacific theatre guy but given the love everyone seems to have for WITP-AE I went over to its forum to check it out - and I return terrified. You have to set up how fuel moves between multiple islands and pick the individual transports that move it?

It's obviously an extremely popular game, so should I be afraid to pick it up and take it for a test drive? NB: I don't have a lot of spare time, maybe an hour or two (at the max) per day for gaming.


I just picked it up a few weeks ago, and it is terrifying complex. I have almost no idea of what happened in the pacific, almost only in Europe, and I love playing wargames covering Europe. But I must admit that WitP AE is the best wargame right now. I also have to say, that I love micromanagement.
And lastly, I only have the same spare time as you do.

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 7/30/2012 2:22:00 AM   
Empire101


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I enjoy both games extensively. Both have their pro's and con's and both should be treasured.

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 7/30/2012 7:41:22 AM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hfarrish
Side note for you Flavius - any thoughts on books regarding the individual Soviet fighting man other than Ivan's War (which I have...)? I know that there just isn't that much material out there given the literacy rate and reasons for caution that would have limited Soviet soldiers willing to write about their experiences...


The Bloody Triangle - The Defeat of Soviet Armor in the Ukraine, June 1941 - Victor J. Kamenir, is not about the experiences of the individual Soviet soldier, but it does cover, in great detail, the experiences of the South Western Front in the first days of Barbarossa.

Whereas many titles are showing the big picture, over longer timescales, this book gives a concentrated blow by blow account of the first 10 days, mainly from the Soviet perspective and has a lot of detail of what the Soviet forces, at all levels, went through in 1941.


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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 7/30/2012 8:44:49 AM   
Speedy

 

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Both very very good games.

hfarrish - if you have any queries, concerns etc on AE just ping me a message as I've played it a lot (and still do with a 2 year + AAR).

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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 7/30/2012 9:20:36 AM   
JocMeister

 

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I have played WITP and WITP:AE on and off for the last 6 years. Started my first PBEM about 7 month ago.

Yes, its a very complex game and it can be frustrating at times especially in the beginning when you don´t really understand much. But there are smaller scenarios to help you learn the game and a VERY helpful forum. There is also a ton of AARs to read and learn from. It will take several months of learning but I promise it will be worth it!

I did buy WITE on relase and played it for about 3 months. Its a ok game but I quickly found myself back playing AE.

WITE might be just as good in 10 years time but in the meantime I will continue with AE.


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RE: OT: WITP-AE - 7/30/2012 5:42:46 PM   
Grotius


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I enjoy both games, but I also prefer AE. I have learned more from AE than any game I've ever played. It's one thing to read about the importance of logistics. It's another to be responsible for moving all that oil, fuel, resources and supply around. It's a tremendously interesting challenge. On top of that, the WEGO system works really well in that context: you never know what to expect when you move a task force or fly an air mission. That's especially true in PBEM, but even against the AI, surprises happen all the time.

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