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calculating infantry value - 6/23/2012 3:30:37 PM   
Central Blue

 

Posts: 695
Joined: 8/20/2004
Status: offline 		yes, I searched on infantry value. Apologies if this has been answered before. I just couldn't find it.

The manual says something that it is basically bayonet strength.

Ok. Let's look at the US Rifle company TOE circa February 1944 for which I have a variety of sources. The stock estab gives this unit an infantry value of 200. What I see is three rifle platoons at 41 total each, and a weapons platoon of 35, for a grand total of about 158 guys at the pointy end. Of course out of that number, there are some messengers, drivers, platoon leaders who theoretically aren't fixing bayonets as part of their job. Same could be said for the weapons platoon; but like I say, these folks are supposed to be close to the action, unlike the guy in platoon HQ manning the .50 for local air defense.

Of course there's also the problem that the entire company doesn't add up to 200.

So, will game mechanics be thrown wildly out of whack if I base the infantry value on the count of the rifle and weapons platoons?

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USS St. Louis firing on Guam, July 1944. The Cardinals and Browns faced each other in the World Series that year
Post #: 1
RE: calculating infantry value - 6/23/2012 8:17:55 PM   
Bil H


Posts: 1972
Joined: 4/24/2003
From: Richmond Virginia
Status: offline 		Central Blue, what I am doing for LOTB is determine the actual fighters in a unit, and that becomes the Infantry Value, regardless of how many troops are in a unit. For example: A German Infantry Platoon with 36 men has an Infantry value of 30; while a 105mm Howitzer Gun Section has an Infantry Value of 0... the lower value in the Infantry Platoon accounts for LMG assistant gunners (x6) who will not normally be actively engaging, but will instead be calling out targets and helping the gunner reload, change barrels, etc.... while if the Gun Section gets engaged at close range by an infantry platoon they should stand little chance.

I have not noticed anything being broken by this in my tests, so do what you think is best.

Bil

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Post #: 2
RE: calculating infantry value - 6/24/2012 3:51:39 AM   
Central Blue

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bil H

Central Blue, what I am doing for LOTB is determine the actual fighters in a unit, and that becomes the Infantry Value, regardless of how many troops are in a unit. For example: A German Infantry Platoon with 36 men has an Infantry value of 30; while a 105mm Howitzer Gun Section has an Infantry Value of 0... the lower value in the Infantry Platoon accounts for LMG assistant gunners (x6) who will not normally be actively engaging, but will instead be calling out targets and helping the gunner reload, change barrels, etc.... while if the Gun Section gets engaged at close range by an infantry platoon they should stand little chance.

I have not noticed anything being broken by this in my tests, so do what you think is best.

Bil


Thanks Bill. I appreciate the feedback.

I've been going with adding the LMG's and light mortars, and by the time I saw your response there was too much water over the bridge. I've been leaving out the HMG's and 8omm mortars where typically attached, or organic to a company.

I'ld say about 95% of the units I have worked on have ended leaner on total numbers and/or infantry value. If there's no impact on the game, there is at least an impact on this gamer.

Haven't added any infantry value to non-infantry units, but do add recon or engineering where appropriate. Not sure that 4 observers, or a point or two of engineering makes a whole heck of a lot of difference -- but at least they are counted.

So far, things are working out smooth as silk as I update. By mainly editing existing unit types, and adding very few new ones, the transition to tweaking the scenarios is pretty well seamless and uneventful. I tip my cap to the devs. Please consider this an advertisement for anyone browsing through and thinking about buying the game.

I can't wait to get started on maps and building a new scenario. I do find some time to play the game too.

_____________________________

USS St. Louis firing on Guam, July 1944. The Cardinals and Browns faced each other in the World Series that year

(in reply to Bil H)
Post #: 3
RE: calculating infantry value - 6/24/2012 5:20:36 AM   
Bil H


Posts: 1972
Joined: 4/24/2003
From: Richmond Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Central Blue

I'ld say about 95% of the units I have worked on have ended leaner on total numbers and/or infantry value. If there's no impact on the game, there is at least an impact on this gamer.


Oh I'm sure there's an effect in game, for example, adding a small Engineer Value to an infantry unit allows it to lend some manpower to bridge building, etc...

...and I am with you, it makes an impact to me as well.

Bil


_____________________________

Ah, well, since you do not wish death, then how about a rubber chicken?

Sam the Eagle

My Website:
http://www.bilhardenberger.com

(in reply to Central Blue)
Post #: 4
RE: calculating infantry value - 6/24/2012 10:43:09 AM   
wodin


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Status: offline 		Central Blue if your doing a Platoon level mod you best waiting for LOTB with the Hi fidelity movement maps.

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RE: calculating infantry value - 6/24/2012 6:57:28 PM   
Central Blue

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Central Blue if your doing a Platoon level mod you best waiting for LOTB with the Hi fidelity movement maps.


Just working on the stock estab for Bulge and Market Garden. Some things just didn't look "right" and it's easy and fun to make changes. Bill has been one of the people kind enough to answer questions that have probably been asked by a whole lot of other people that just bought the game.

I've read about the project Bill is working on and it sounds interesting.

_____________________________

USS St. Louis firing on Guam, July 1944. The Cardinals and Browns faced each other in the World Series that year

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Post #: 6
RE: calculating infantry value - 6/25/2012 1:32:54 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16450
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		Central Blue,

Good posts.

Re Infantry value. First off it should never be greater than the number of personnel. If it is, then that is definely a mistake. Basically the rule I work on is not quite "bayonet strength". If you applied that to modern infantry you would only get a value of 1 per fireteam. Basically I take the persQty and subtract those manning heavy weapons, loggies and HQ staff for HQ units. I reckon that when it comes to companies the OC, CSM and radio operators are "on the line", so I include them. For mounted infantry and recon I deduct two pers per vehicle representing the crew that doesn't dismount. Arty and logistics units don't get an inf value period. I hope that helps.

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Post #: 7
RE: calculating infantry value - 6/26/2012 2:29:33 AM   
Central Blue

 

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Joined: 8/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Central Blue,

Good posts.

Re Infantry value. First off it should never be greater than the number of personnel. If it is, then that is definely a mistake. Basically the rule I work on is not quite "bayonet strength". If you applied that to modern infantry you would only get a value of 1 per fireteam. Basically I take the persQty and subtract those manning heavy weapons, loggies and HQ staff for HQ units. I reckon that when it comes to companies the OC, CSM and radio operators are "on the line", so I include them. For mounted infantry and recon I deduct two pers per vehicle representing the crew that doesn't dismount. Arty and logistics units don't get an inf value period. I hope that helps.


Positive feedback from a Dev always feels good.

I get your point about the infantry vehicle crew and might adjust accordingly if I ever revisit what I have worked on so far. I can definitely see making that change for recon units in half tracks or jeeps since they theoretically aren't intended to stand and fight and were more likely to fight mounted.

Given the period the game and scenarios are covering (where units are under-strength to begin with) I don't feel too off base adding an extra 6 points or so per mounted platoon given that the driver and assistant are most likely operating the vehicle mounted MG fairly close to the line. One factor that has affected my thinking is that so very few of the German half tracks seem to sport their vehicle mounted MG. So if I am to count them at all, I have to count them as a dismount.

Not sure OC and CSM stand for but am willing to think about it. Pops was scheduled to land on Japan with the first wave as some sort of observer/controller for air/naval support. I forget the USMC acronym. I never did hear what sort of weapon the Corps would have put in his hands, but it probably would have come in handy.

And while I'm here saying wonderful things about what a great game this is, it sure would be fun to add individual saddle horses the way I can add motorcycles and bicycles.

_____________________________

USS St. Louis firing on Guam, July 1944. The Cardinals and Browns faced each other in the World Series that year

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 8
RE: calculating infantry value - 6/27/2012 1:21:08 AM   
Central Blue

 

Posts: 695
Joined: 8/20/2004
Status: offline 		And then it came to me.

Slowly, slowly...

There is nothing stopping me from adding a saddle horse to the vehicle list.

Is this a great game, or what?

_____________________________

USS St. Louis firing on Guam, July 1944. The Cardinals and Browns faced each other in the World Series that year

(in reply to Central Blue)
Post #: 9
RE: calculating infantry value - 6/27/2012 2:05:06 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16450
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		Central Blue,

OC= Officer Commanding - ie the company commander
CSM = Company Sargeant Major - the senior non commissioned officer in the company

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Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Central Blue)
Post #: 10
RE: calculating infantry value - 12/12/2012 7:21:47 PM   
Rock64

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 11/16/2012
Status: offline 		OC?
It's CO - Commanding Officer...
Silly Aussies :)

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 11
RE: calculating infantry value - 12/12/2012 10:25:14 PM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16450
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rock64

OC?
It's CO - Commanding Officer...
Silly Aussies :)


No, Aussies aren't silly. OC = company commander, CO = battalion commander. That way when a soldier says he was ordered by the CO his OC knows not to question it.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Rock64)
Post #: 12
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