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CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 12:05:39 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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anyone know the AC types and numbers on board ranger at the start of the war?

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 12:14:07 AM   
Don Bowen


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http://www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/013_usa/_41_usn/lant_aircraft.html

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 1:37:04 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		FYI - The three TBD were not in flying condition and were removed before they were repaired. They were put aboard on loan from I believe VT-5 to train the Ranger's dive bombers in level bombing skills, but the three planes were non-flyable cast offs.

Bill

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 1:48:16 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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excellent. how useful the forum is

ranger is part of my new warplan orange mod, when the japanese don't attack pearl
and the us has a japan first strategy (atlantic carriers + lend lease planes to pacific)

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 1:49:19 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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aah now the details,

do we know what model of wildcat the ranger was carrying?

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 1:59:46 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		The link Don sent shows the version of every aircraft in the air group.

Bill

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 2:19:07 AM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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any knowledge about the state of their training?

extensive like yorktown / enterprise or marginal like hornet

ranger was one of the older carriers, did they keep the old hands on board or spread them out pre war?

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 2:29:24 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		One of the VB units was the oldest combat squadron in the Navy, the Top Hatters. Overall I think the Ranger's air group's training was on par with the Yorktown and Lexington class air groups.

Bill

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 4:54:31 AM   
oldman45


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Status: offline 		I know its your mod, but the Ranger handled poorly and had short legs. Would have a hard time operating in the Pacific.

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 4:59:56 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		The Ranger was retired from front line service before the war was over. As soon as enough CVEs were available, it was turned into a training carrier.

Bill

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 8:24:49 AM   
Empire101


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Status: offline 		Bills signature 'The Worlds least expensive non-free wargame in cost per hour to play', is great!!

Now why did'nt I think of that!!

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 8:41:59 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		The old sig graphic was getting a bit old.

Bill

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 10:16:20 AM   
YankeeAirRat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The Ranger was retired from front line service before the war was over. As soon as enough CVEs were available, it was turned into a training carrier.

Bill


Are you sure of that? I can't remember where off the top of my head, but I thought for a while they were thinking of bring the Ranger around to the Pacific in 1944 to become an additional night fighting carrier and have her serve along side the Big E as the two ships that would center piece a night fighting carrier task force in preperation for the landings against the Home Islands.

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 10:26:35 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		I've never seen anything on any considerations for using the Ranger in combat against the Japanese, though I suppose it may have been considered. In 1944 she had extra gear for night ops installed and served the rest of the war as a night operations training carrier. At least that's what I've read.

If the Navy had wanted more night carriers it probably would have made more sense to refit a couple of the Sangamon class CVEs. They were close to the same size as the Ranger with longer range and some other improvements. Though was a bit slow which probably wouldn't be a good idea to operate with the Enterprise.

Bill

< Message edited by wdolson -- 6/22/2012 10:31:05 AM >

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 12:49:30 PM   
spence

 

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Status: offline 		Ranger accompanied the TORCH invasion. It also took part in Operation Leader which was a raid on German shipping along the coast of Norway. She was short-legged though...apparently Air Group 4 (assigned to Ranger) was later put aboard an Essex Class and sent to the Pacific. Lots about Ranger associated with this link:

http://www.airgroup4.com/operation-leader.htm

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 12:55:05 PM   
spence

 

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Status: offline 		This link has a bunch of pictures taken during Operation Leader along with German records

http://www.airgroup4.com/german.htm

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Post #: 16
RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 1:24:33 PM   
Sakai007

 

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Status: offline 		Very interesting page there! Always been intrigued by LEADER and now I know more about it. Really grateful for that.

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Post #: 17
RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 1:48:41 PM   
Gridley380


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Status: offline 		FYI, she actually served in the Pacific (nowhere near combat) starting in mid 1944:

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ships/dafs/CV/cv4.html

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Post #: 18
RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 2:24:08 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		In early 1942, Naval Planners did seriously consider moving RANGER to the Pacific, and rejected it. She was a poor air platform; she had a narrow flight deck, and the island and stacks were impediments to maximizing the deck space. The funnels were retractable, but moving them back and forth was cumbersome, and never really satisfactory (they were eventually just left down). The small flight deck made working large airgroups difficult. She also had almost no protection, and would have required some significant build outs to get a credible AA presence. IIRC, she was also a poor seaboat, and rolled in a swell, not the best quality when you are trying to land a plane. All-in-all, just not up to snuff.

WASP I think was in the same boat initially; they were both kept in the Atlantic for speed reasons. With the losses in 1942, WASP was moved to the Pacific, despite her lack of speed and protection; she at least could effectively manage airgroups, had the deck/hanger space, and could easily be upgraded with more AA. After she was easily sunk, that probably ended any consideration of moving similarly vulnerable RANGER; plus, she was needed for TORCH by then.

Here are some good photos, though, including of her engine room, which you don't see often:

http://www.airgroup4.com/ranger.htm

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 6/22/2012 2:25:51 PM >

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 3:11:09 PM   
dr.hal


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Status: offline 		You folks produce some amazing detail!!! Thanks.

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 3:47:33 PM   
John 3rd


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From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		One has to keep in mind that Ranger and Ryujo were the first real CVs for each of the navy's after the massive Conversions (Akagi--Lex) and both Fleets wanted to get the maximum bang for their tonnage buck (dealing with Washington Treaty) so they went small and crammed as many planes as possible onto the carrier. NEITHER worked! Once this was learned then the Fleets went slightly larger and out came Soryu and Yorktown. Bigger, useful, fast and FAAAAAAR better. A lot of people don't know the HISTORY of carrier development so they see Ranger or Ryujo and say--why cant I or what the HELL is this?--just need to know that these were the experimental stepping stones to the true carriers of WWII.

Read Kaigun for a bunch of this.


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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 4:18:02 PM   
dr.hal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

One has to keep in mind that Ranger and Ryujo were the first real CVs for each of the navy's after the massive Conversions (Akagi--Lex) and both Fleets wanted to get the maximum bang for their tonnage buck (dealing with Washington Treaty) so they went small and crammed as many planes as possible onto the carrier. NEITHER worked! Once this was learned then the Fleets went slightly larger and out came Soryu and Yorktown. Bigger, useful, fast and FAAAAAAR better. A lot of people don't know the HISTORY of carrier development so they see Ranger or Ryujo and say--why cant I or what the HELL is this?--just need to know that these were the experimental stepping stones to the true carriers of WWII.

Read Kaigun for a bunch of this.


And of course the termination of that treaty (Washington) didn't hurt the advancements in the designs of carriers.

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 4:20:49 PM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		Ranger's torpedo magazine was removed as well so she carried a bomber only loadout. Agree with Bill on the idea of Pacific ops, while in the dark days of late 42 i'm sure ALL options were considered, in the end Ranger was just considered too vulnerable to justify risking her. In the end it was Victorious that ended up subbing briefly for Halsey's needs


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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 5:35:34 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

One has to keep in mind that Ranger and Ryujo were the first real CVs for each of the navy's after the massive Conversions (Akagi--Lex) and both Fleets wanted to get the maximum bang for their tonnage buck (dealing with Washington Treaty) so they went small and crammed as many planes as possible onto the carrier. NEITHER worked! Once this was learned then the Fleets went slightly larger and out came Soryu and Yorktown. Bigger, useful, fast and FAAAAAAR better. A lot of people don't know the HISTORY of carrier development so they see Ranger or Ryujo and say--why cant I or what the HELL is this?--just need to know that these were the experimental stepping stones to the true carriers of WWII.

Read Kaigun for a bunch of this.



Ryujo is a unique unit, for sure.......

I was always amazed at the placement of the bridge. She also looks ridiculously top-heavy.

Alot of airplanes though crammed on that displacement

I also think WITP-AE exaggerates her capability; IIRC, Kates couldn't fit in one of her elevators, which really restricted her ability to launch strikes. More of a Zero-carrier IMO.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 6/22/2012 5:43:23 PM >

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 5:44:17 PM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		She looks cool though. Ranger looked dumpy, especially with those funnels.

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 5:50:24 PM   
Commander Stormwolf

 

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good to have some house rules preventing F6F or F4U on CVE, and no A7M or B7A on early japanese carriers

anyone know if they could be used from the unryu class?

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 5:52:54 PM   
mdiehl

 

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Status: offline 		An interesting piece of trivia about USS Ranger. During the Op Torch landings she carried a deck load of USAAF P-40Es and their pilots, destined for airfields in Morocco anticipated to be captured within the first few days of the campaign. All but one of the P-40s was successfully deck launched and transferred to their destination airfield. One P-40 did not make it. Developed engine trouble and, sans tail hook, returned to the carrier and made a successful, crash-free deck landing. The pilot was subsequently awarded navy flier wings by Ranger's CAG.

Details are in An Army at Dawn by Rick Atkinson.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 6/22/2012 5:55:30 PM >

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 6:18:36 PM   
YankeeAirRat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I've never seen anything on any considerations for using the Ranger in combat against the Japanese, though I suppose it may have been considered. In 1944 she had extra gear for night ops installed and served the rest of the war as a night operations training carrier. At least that's what I've read.

If the Navy had wanted more night carriers it probably would have made more sense to refit a couple of the Sangamon class CVEs. They were close to the same size as the Ranger with longer range and some other improvements. Though was a bit slow which probably wouldn't be a good idea to operate with the Enterprise.

Bill


Actually my bad I was mixing up my information here. Digging through some of my resources, there was an article in an old copy of a Naval History which while talking about the development of night fighting carrier capabilities talked about the Ranger being used as a possible night fighting carrier in a side piece. Then digging through U.S. Aircraft Carriers: An Illustrated Design History, in the chapter on the Ranger they talked about how the Ranger was pretty successful during the war in that it was able to operate pretty well of North Africa and later off Norway, but that by late 1943 and early 1944 with all the AA mods done to her she was so top heavy unstable that the rough seas and weather around the Home Islands would have lead to her acting like a cork on a lake during a tempest. Which wasn't good for flight operations nor for the ship's habitability according to Friedman.

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 6:25:02 PM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Stormwolf


good to have some house rules preventing F6F or F4U on CVE, and no A7M or B7A on early japanese carriers

anyone know if they could be used from the unryu class?

Afaik only Taihos and Shinanos elevators could handle the Grace.

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RE: CV Ranger - 6/22/2012 6:26:55 PM   
John 3rd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

An interesting piece of trivia about USS Ranger. During the Op Torch landings she carried a deck load of USAAF P-40Es and their pilots, destined for airfields in Morocco anticipated to be captured within the first few days of the campaign. All but one of the P-40s was successfully deck launched and transferred to their destination airfield. One P-40 did not make it. Developed engine trouble and, sans tail hook, returned to the carrier and made a successful, crash-free deck landing. The pilot was subsequently awarded navy flier wings by Ranger's CAG.

Details are in An Army at Dawn by Rick Atkinson.


GREAT story!

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