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Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it.

 
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Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/20/2012 4:10:30 PM   
glvaca

 

Posts: 1109
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline 		I have to say, I've lost track of the morale loss & gain with all the different patches.

So the question is, how do I gain and lose morale?
What are the chances to gain morale through combat? How can I increase my chances?
What's the influence of national morale? How does it work?
How do I lose morale? By interdiction? What's the chance?
By lack of supply? Fuel?

etc...

Please, does someone has a list? a reference post?

DISCLAMER: This post is not meant to re-start the morale debate again. IF you are so inclined please start another post. This post is purely to completely understand this most important part of the game. Thanks.
Post #: 1
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/20/2012 6:57:01 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1369
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline 		Would love to see someone print the morale formula...
I dare the designers to share it.

_____________________________

For the longest time I thought I'd buy WitW to ensure my legitimate voice of criticism could be heard. But as WitE continues down the path of Soviet Army fantasy-land, I've given up all hope of enjoying either game again.

(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 2
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/20/2012 7:00:22 PM   
glvaca

 

Posts: 1109
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Would love to see someone print the morale formula...
I dare the designers to share it.


Helio, can you please keep it civil and informative?
I don't want a formula, I just want to know when, what and how.
If you want to start ranting again, start another post.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 3
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/20/2012 9:01:25 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5744
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online 		Win battles, and don't lose them. (Holds count as losing for these purposes.) Stay in supply. Refit in the deep rear 10+ hexes.

National morale are norms around which morale rating will cluster, but can be exceeded (with great difficulty) or fall short of (far more easily.)



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(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 4
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/20/2012 9:07:57 PM   
glvaca

 

Posts: 1109
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks for that Flav, but I'm looking for something more specific, not general.

For instance, I notice several Infantry divs, losing 1 or 2 points morale without apparent cause.
Is this because of a lack of supply? Being isolated? Interdiction?

When winning combats, does the commanding general help to increase your chances? IF so, does he need to be within 5 hexes? Or doesn't it matter?
Again if so, how much help does he offer? Does the next level general help?

Another question, what are the morale bonusses for the german mech units per year? Elite units?

etc...

I really think these things should be much more documented with clear tables on how it works and what influences loss and gains.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 5
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/20/2012 9:15:21 PM   
Schmart

 

Posts: 552
Joined: 9/13/2010
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Win battles, and don't lose them. (Holds count as losing for these purposes.)


But a hold counts as a win for the defensive units, doesn't it?

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 6
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/20/2012 9:16:10 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5744
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online 		Could be any of those things. Unfortunately, the game doesn't report the events causing morale losses and gains, you just see the end results.

Generalship has no direct effect whatsoever on the chances of gaining or losing morale. It may affect the outcome of any particular battle, so to that extent you want good generals.

I think the patch notes have the specific morale bonuses somewhere buried in there.

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Post #: 7
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/20/2012 9:16:51 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5744
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Win battles, and don't lose them. (Holds count as losing for these purposes.)


But a hold counts as a win for the defensive units, doesn't it?


Yes.

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Post #: 8
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/21/2012 12:05:59 AM   
gingerbread


Posts: 1165
Joined: 1/4/2007
From: Lund, Sweden
Status: online 		This thread contains some info on causes of morale loss.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 9
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/21/2012 12:25:16 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5744
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online 		Interesting. Wasn't aware that fatigue could knock down morale. Not in the manual.



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Post #: 10
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/21/2012 1:11:54 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1369
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

Thanks for that Flav, but I'm looking for something more specific, not general.

For instance, I notice several Infantry divs, losing 1 or 2 points morale without apparent cause.
Is this because of a lack of supply? Being isolated? Interdiction?

When winning combats, does the commanding general help to increase your chances? IF so, does he need to be within 5 hexes? Or doesn't it matter?
Again if so, how much help does he offer? Does the next level general help?

Another question, what are the morale bonusses for the german mech units per year? Elite units?

etc...

I really think these things should be much more documented with clear tables on how it works and what influences loss and gains.


With all due respect, a formula is specific.

Why do you think it's not being shared anymore, dude?
I'm not trying to be political or rant.

You are right, every player deserves to know the specific mechanics of morale increase/decrease. There is a formula. It used to be shared. Now it isn't.

Why would you not want that information?

_____________________________

For the longest time I thought I'd buy WitW to ensure my legitimate voice of criticism could be heard. But as WitE continues down the path of Soviet Army fantasy-land, I've given up all hope of enjoying either game again.

(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 11
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/21/2012 8:25:44 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 21608
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

All changes regarding morale are listed in updated WitE manual in appropriate sections of the updated manual (and in ReadMe).

AFAIK there is no other info available...


Leo "Apollo11"



_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 12
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/21/2012 10:01:13 AM   
glvaca

 

Posts: 1109
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

All changes regarding morale are listed in updated WitE manual in appropriate sections of the updated manual (and in ReadMe).

AFAIK there is no other info available...


Leo "Apollo11"



Thanks for posting, Leo.
What I think would be _very_ useful would be a summary table with a list of what can influence morale.
A list for what Leader ratings are used would also be very useful.
I think I'll give it a go here in this post later today.
All info (like the interesting bit from GingerB) for all undocumented tidbits please post here. Thanks!

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 13
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/21/2012 10:23:24 AM   
glvaca

 

Posts: 1109
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline 		By the way, from the manual: The unit’s morale is below 50, and it is in refit mode.

Is this still accurate? Ie. wasn't this changed to +10 hexes from enemy unit?

(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 14
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/21/2012 11:27:45 AM   
Walloc

 

Posts: 2533
Joined: 10/30/2006
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Yeah, u need to be 10 hexes away from the enemy now to get moral refit bonus.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 15
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/21/2012 11:54:23 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 21608
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

By the way, from the manual: The unit’s morale is below 50, and it is in refit mode.

Is this still accurate? Ie. wasn't this changed to +10 hexes from enemy unit?


What manual are you reading - original or updated one?


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 16
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/21/2012 11:56:14 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 21608
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

What I think would be _very_ useful would be a summary table with a list of what can influence morale.
A list for what Leader ratings are used would also be very useful.
I think I'll give it a go here in this post later today.
All info (like the interesting bit from GingerB) for all undocumented tidbits please post here. Thanks!


The thing with WitE is that there are many (and I mean many many many) dice rolls for almost anything!

Apart from searching the manual and looking at all sections dealing with morale i don't know any other place where one could get the info (apart from looking at code and that is complicated)...


Leo "Apollo11"

_____________________________



Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 17
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/21/2012 6:08:29 PM   
notenome

 

Posts: 598
Joined: 12/28/2009
Status: offline 		People tend to forget that WITE is built around a design theory that seeks to hide much of the math part in order to make the game seem more organic. This is something I actually agree with, as it forces you to think more along the lines of a general (this is a good division, this division is tired, good terrain/bad supplies etc) instead of gaming the system. Obviously some wonkiness happens, but then again the history of WWII is filled with general's exclaiming how something was impossible even as it was happening. This is something that I think is very important to accept as you play. If some extra love was placed on the air war and logistics, I'd really be quite satisfied with the game overall. It wouldn't be perfect, but nothing is.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 18
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/21/2012 7:13:15 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 18456
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: online 		I think, but am not sure about this that the Morale rating of a leader has an impact on the morale rating of the units under him. I'm not sure where that comes into play though. The manual says this:

11.2.2. MORALE RATING
The Morale leader rating is used for determining unit combat value in battle, determining win/
loss credit, adding or recovering fatigue in the unit’s ground elements, and rallying routed units.



Maybe in determining how win/loss credit is assigned it impacts the morale gain/loss from a win or loss (but just guessing here).

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

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Post #: 19
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/22/2012 5:52:32 AM   
kg_1007

 

Posts: 229
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Win battles, and don't lose them. (Holds count as losing for these purposes.) Stay in supply. Refit in the deep rear 10+ hexes.

National morale are norms around which morale rating will cluster, but can be exceeded (with great difficulty) or fall short of (far more easily.)



I have not heard of the "10 hex" idea..is that solid(meaning part of the formula) or just good advice?

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 20
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/22/2012 5:53:54 AM   
kg_1007

 

Posts: 229
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: notenome

People tend to forget that WITE is built around a design theory that seeks to hide much of the math part in order to make the game seem more organic. This is something I actually agree with, as it forces you to think more along the lines of a general (this is a good division, this division is tired, good terrain/bad supplies etc) instead of gaming the system. Obviously some wonkiness happens, but then again the history of WWII is filled with general's exclaiming how something was impossible even as it was happening. This is something that I think is very important to accept as you play. If some extra love was placed on the air war and logistics, I'd really be quite satisfied with the game overall. It wouldn't be perfect, but nothing is.

Agree..I think if the formula is known, it is an invite to game it.

(in reply to notenome)
Post #: 21
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/22/2012 11:00:29 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kg_1007

Agree..I think if the formula is known, it is an invite to game it.


I agree with the general sentiment but I think this game takes the opacity too far; I don't necessarily want to know the formula, but I think it is reasonable to ask for a list of relevant factors. I guess I'm a cynic, but in my view failure to provide such basic info is not a means of ensuring "realism" but a means of keeping the details of a flawed model under wraps.

Notenome points that that this game design is intended to force people to think more "organically" but this only works if people have some understanding of what is being modeled and how. Currently the system is so opaque that all results (morale, combat, whatever) could be determined by a random number generator for all I know, I don't like it at all...

(in reply to kg_1007)
Post #: 22
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/22/2012 2:22:43 PM   
notenome

 

Posts: 598
Joined: 12/28/2009
Status: offline 		You do have a point 76mm in that any flaw in the combat model can always be explained as 'weird stuff happens in war, deal with it'.

I think this problem is worse for the Axis then the Soviets because, at least for the first two years of the war, the Soviets accept that to be successful they have to attack en masse, which leads to Soviets creating a lot of 'rules of thumb', particularly for the First Winter (it takes six division to blow past one German division in a lvl 2 fort, or whatever your particular guideline is). Axis players tend to attack until they meet resistance (holds), and then stack troops to deal with that resistance.

In general the engine has a few places of wonkiness that become very clear, like the all-or-nothing casualty figures the Soviets get when attacking (If its a hold the Soviets take massive casualties and the Axis almost nothing) or the relatively low casualties for assaulting urban hexes in men and afvs. The wonkiness grows during 41 as Axis units become more fatigued (as logistics do not force a pause) and Soviets get better leaders in place and fresher troops.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 23
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/22/2012 3:04:13 PM   
kg_1007

 

Posts: 229
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline 		I have noticed this playing both sides also..there are a LOT of battles, where there are , say 1800 Sov casualties, and 15 Axis, just to draw numbers out of my head..just like other issues, I think this did happen sometimes, but I seriously doubt it happened as often as it does in this game... In the game, the Soviet player perhaps does not notice or care so much, their manpower catches up even devastating losses very easily, so perhaps that is why, but I would rather it did not work that way also.

< Message edited by kg_1007 -- 6/22/2012 3:05:26 PM >

(in reply to notenome)
Post #: 24
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/22/2012 3:19:39 PM   
notenome

 

Posts: 598
Joined: 12/28/2009
Status: offline 		It seems to be a problem unique to low morale units. If you take the example of glvaca's 7th Flieger getting held by a cavalry division, it was only about 150 losses for either side. It seems low morale units are very bad at killing things, so most losses come from retreat attrition. If the Axis don't retreat they take negligible losses, if the Soviets fail they suffer retreat attrition (increase by low morale) and take massive losses. I wouldn't mind the role of morale in suffering losses/experiencing losses being mitigated somewhat. Right now its possible to cripple an entire front through a single hold (Kalinin Front in my game vs 821bobo is a good example of this).

(in reply to kg_1007)
Post #: 25
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/22/2012 3:30:19 PM   
kg_1007

 

Posts: 229
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline 		I have played with that idea in my own modifications of the game, bumping the Sov morale higher on units in some areas, at least at the beginning(I guess after the beginning/entry turn of the unit, it is pretty much determined by in the field conditions as mentioned above) in the editor. Have not yet really tested the results of this very much, thus far the results of combats seem roughly the same, in the early going, as far as "win/loss" while as you said, it does increase the German casualties somewhat.

(in reply to notenome)
Post #: 26
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/22/2012 6:13:08 PM   
notenome

 

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Joined: 12/28/2009
Status: offline 		Aside from urban assaults, where German casualties seem to have a ceiling of 1k casualties no matter what, my problem isn't with Axis offensive casualties. Instead its with the low casualties suffered by the defender when an attack fails (sometimes in the tens even when being attacked by 40,000+ men) and the horrible, horrible losses suffered by the attacker. As stated above I think this is largely due to the fact that in WITE the real killer is retreat attrition. This is why, for example, as the Soviets its always a good idea to ground attack before an assault, because if you force a retreat all the damaged/disrupted elements will be destroyed, which greatly increases Axis casualties.

(in reply to kg_1007)
Post #: 27
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/22/2012 6:18:45 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5744
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online 		German casualties do pick up in later years when the Sovs get lots of high ROF weapons. This is noticeable by mid 42.

In 1943, attacking rifle corps is practically suicidal for the Axis and the butcher's bill will be staggering, even if they win.

But in 1941 the Red Army is remarkably ineffective in causing losses. Axis hold results, even in urban terrain, practically give equal losses for both sides. The Soviets, as noted, only do damage when they force retreats.

So the game has problems on both ends. It is either too bloody or too light.

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Post #: 28
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/22/2012 6:50:36 PM   
notenome

 

Posts: 598
Joined: 12/28/2009
Status: offline 		Yes, it seems that WitE needs temperance, in both logistics and casualties. Bringing both ends of the spectrum closer to a more reasonable mean.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 29
RE: Morale, how do I gain it, and lose it. - 6/22/2012 10:18:57 PM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Morale is set on a downward time line for the Germans.

The key to the war from 43-45 is German infantry morale. Morale = CV

Thats why its is key for the German to attack in 42 even if the result over-all are a wash. GHC must get all German infantry units morale over 70 during 42.

There is a balance between attacking and losses. High loses = low cv/low morale = low cv.

If you never gotten a game into 1943 you have no idea what I am talking about.

Just sitting is not an answer, but attacking to much is not the answer also.

Moving your units 1000000000000000 hexes from the front will not gain you(GHC) morale. This has been talking about in 4 threads in the past with 12+ players showing data to support this.

Morale is the key late war stat.

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to notenome)
Post #: 30
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