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AG Utah?

 
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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> AG Utah? Page: [1]
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AG Utah? - 6/18/2012 2:56:08 AM   
rms1pa

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 7/4/2011
Status: offline 		Hi folks,
is there a reason AG Utah is not in PH at start?

rms/pa

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there is a technical term for those who confuse the opinions of an author's characters for the opinions of the author.
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Post #: 1
RE: AG Utah? - 6/18/2012 3:38:43 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 7032
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		When it was included in the game, it tended to become a bomb magnet during the PH attack and reduced other damage. I can't recall if it's in the database or not, but it was at one time and just disabled so it wouldn't be used.

Bill

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WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

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Post #: 2
RE: AG Utah? - 6/19/2012 1:06:23 AM   
Disco Duck

 

Posts: 194
Joined: 11/16/2004
Status: offline 		I did a search for the AG Utah and found this interesting site.
http://www.timemoneyandblood.com/HTML/PearlHarbor/shipsPearlHarbor/uss-utah-pearl-harbor.html

Some good pictures

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Post #: 3
RE: AG Utah? - 6/19/2012 4:53:07 PM   
rms1pa

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 7/4/2011
Status: offline
quote:

it tended to become a bomb magnet during the PH attack and reduced other damage.


is that not what it did in history?

thanks dico duck neat site.

rms/pa

_____________________________

there is a technical term for those who confuse the opinions of an author's characters for the opinions of the author.
the term is IDIOT.

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Post #: 4
RE: AG Utah? - 6/19/2012 5:45:37 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

is that not what it did in history?


Yes.

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Post #: 5
RE: AG Utah? - 6/19/2012 5:53:15 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25218
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rms1pa

quote:

it tended to become a bomb magnet during the PH attack and reduced other damage.


is that not what it did in history?

thanks dico duck neat site.

rms/pa


When Bill says "Bomb magnet" he means many multiples of both bombs and torpedoes far exceeding what the ship was actually hit with. It was consistant enough to warrent it's re-removal.



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Post #: 6
RE: AG Utah? - 6/20/2012 12:48:24 PM   
rms1pa

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 7/4/2011
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quote:

many multiples of both bombs and torpedoes far exceeding what the ship was actually hit with. It was consistant enough to warrent it's re-removal.


wowsers, wonder what part of the algorythms did that. ah well, this too shall pass.

rms/pa

i am computer skill challenged , is the Utah in the database? if so how would one have it arrive dec 8?

< Message edited by rms1pa -- 6/20/2012 3:42:26 PM >

_____________________________

there is a technical term for those who confuse the opinions of an author's characters for the opinions of the author.
the term is IDIOT.

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Post #: 7
RE: AG Utah? - 6/20/2012 4:15:47 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25218
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		I consider it a case of Grigsby being smarter than the average modder thinks he is.

Why would you want her to arrive Dec 8?

I'm not sure it's in the database. If not, its easily added. You'd have to create both the class ID and then the actual ship and set the arrival date for 120841 and of course the port ID where it will appear.

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Post #: 8
RE: AG Utah? - 6/20/2012 5:26:10 PM   
rms1pa

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 7/4/2011
Status: offline 		thanks nickademus,

so i would have to figure what its armour rating ,speed,durability
etc, etc, etc. find or create a graphic. determine upgrades and or conversions. then add it in a mod folder?

rms/pa

_____________________________

there is a technical term for those who confuse the opinions of an author's characters for the opinions of the author.
the term is IDIOT.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 9
RE: AG Utah? - 6/20/2012 5:54:02 PM   
Disco Duck

 

Posts: 194
Joined: 11/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rms1pa

thanks nickademus,

so i would have to figure what its armour rating ,speed,durability
etc, etc, etc. find or create a graphic. determine upgrades and or conversions. then add it in a mod folder?

rms/pa

Some interesting pictures of the Utah that might help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FuNfuYN7fY

edit
Maybe a better site.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/31b.htm

Largest Battleship in the world at the time and cost $3 million.

< Message edited by Disco Duck -- 6/20/2012 5:59:44 PM >

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Post #: 10
RE: AG Utah? - 6/20/2012 9:22:11 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25218
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rms1pa

thanks nickademus,

so i would have to figure what its armour rating ,speed,durability
etc, etc, etc. find or create a graphic. determine upgrades and or conversions. then add it in a mod folder?

rms/pa


Yep, though i'm still puzzled why you'd go through the effort. If your thinking along the lines of her being "re-converted" into a battleship, I don't see the USN expending the resources and dockyard space to produce what would be essentially a slow and weakly protected and armed battleship by modern standards but with a high cost of operation and crewing. USS Wyoming, also converted into a training ship, later an AA "anti-Kamakaze" training unit, also was never seriously considered for re-upping to battleship standards.

Unlike Wyoming, its not clear if Utah's belt armor was removed after her conversion to AA training ship. Her deck armor was not upgraded and had to be "augmented" from being damaged/pierced by inert iron bombs by the use of huge timbers placed on the deck. Her Conning tower was in place at least up to the point where she was to be made an AA training ship (since the caretaker crew reportedly fled to the tower during "air attack simulations")

Thats why in the Stock and AE stock scenarios, Utah is not represented and is essentially considered 'sunk' at PH....a non-combatant never to be fully raised or salvaged. She wasn't even worth that effort unlike the more powerful Oklahoma which still ended up never being put back into commission.

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Post #: 11
RE: AG Utah? - 6/20/2012 11:58:40 PM   
rms1pa

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 7/4/2011
Status: offline
quote:

If your thinking along the lines of her being "re-converted" into a battleship, I don't see the USN expending the resources and dockyard space to produce what would be essentially a slow and weakly protected and armed battleship by modern standards


after her conversion to a target ship she still was used as a transport and utility ship. ships of similar age were used till the end of the war.

i was thinking AR,AD or AS. even a heavy repair ship, cranes etc

rms/pa


_____________________________

there is a technical term for those who confuse the opinions of an author's characters for the opinions of the author.
the term is IDIOT.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 12
RE: AG Utah? - 6/21/2012 4:06:58 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25218
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		ah.....I see

Yes she was used as a makeshift transport. However in a war-situation, she would not be an ideal choice for any of those preposed roles due to operating costs. Her large size and slow speed also makes her a juicy target which could lead to unfortunate circumstances, especially in the transport role to which she is entirely unsuited due to speed and internal design. The US already had a similar ship in Wyoming. She was not risked in the war zones but contributed to the war effort as a weapons training platform.

Don't get me wrong though.....if its what you want to do then go for it. Some modders have in the past preposed similar ideas for reconverting old ships into different roles, even ex-BB's

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Post #: 13
RE: AG Utah? - 6/22/2012 4:24:23 PM   
rms1pa

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 7/4/2011
Status: offline
quote:

operating costs. Her large size and slow speed


in wartime, costs would be ignored IMHO.(crew was @600 at PH)
yes slow for a line ship but as a tender the large size is an asset
and 12 knots(not sure of her speed) is ok. a great deal of the space for handling rooms and magazines could be converted to stores or machine shops. and without the main guns (already removed) she could load large amounts of stores.

i would have to research her more carefully to see what could reasonably be done with her.

thanks for helping with my thought experiment.

rms/pa

_____________________________

there is a technical term for those who confuse the opinions of an author's characters for the opinions of the author.
the term is IDIOT.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 14
RE: AG Utah? - 6/22/2012 5:48:14 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		Less her main armament, AG Utah is going to ride very high. The good news is that you can add weight and torpedo protection (blisters) and even experiment with some of the flotation alternatives as did the French and Italians. Also, minus he main armament, she's going to run quite a bit faster than 12 knots. How much I don't know but after all she'd have the same basic thrust but a lot less mass to push around.

She'd also make one heck of an AAA platform. Conceptually something like a invasion support ship, say an AGC, with a boatload (heh!) of 5"L38, lots of communications equipment, and really good radar.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 15
RE: AG Utah? - 6/22/2012 9:13:36 PM   
rms1pa

 

Posts: 141
Joined: 7/4/2011
Status: offline 		thanks mdiehl,

with a minimum of research,

she displaced @20,000 tons with a 20knt speed she very likely could still make 16kts and cruise at 12knts not enough for a combat ship but fine for a support ship.

(one of the Spanish /American war cruisers was used for an explosive stores ship,but i believe she was towed to Leyte.)

at the time of Dec 7,the Utah was in target mode,her guns(open mount 5"38 and 1.1") under steel boxes, timbered decks and machineguns (AA school) stowed below.

perhaps, she could have been used/converted to a harbour defence FLAK ship. easily done but not American doctrine.

in the various photos of her righting. the armour belt appears to be present.

rms/pa

_____________________________

there is a technical term for those who confuse the opinions of an author's characters for the opinions of the author.
the term is IDIOT.

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 16
RE: AG Utah? - 6/22/2012 9:17:13 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

support ship


Yep. IIRC the Brits even used some wretched old monitors during WW2 for coastal artillery support. Anything that could keep up with a slow convoy and mount a pile of AAA would have been useful SOMEWHERE.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 17
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