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LOTB and platoon level...

 
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LOTB and platoon level... - 6/17/2012 7:32:15 PM   
wodin


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I had a search of the forum to try and find where I asked about a smaller scale and below is the link.

I'm a touch disappointed that there will be no engine changes (as mentioned in Bil's reply to Chelcos blog article) for this game as it feels to me that this tactical game isn't getting the attention it deserves and is disheartening for me who is really a tactical gamer and has always wanted to see this engine made into a tactical game. To find out it is really going to be BFTB with smaller unit's without the extra detail that a game at this level needs dampened my enthusiasm.I noticed that Bil has asked for new features but got not commitment back from Dave.

So please I ask as someone who loves tactical games give this game all the engine changes it needs to be a true tactical version of CO. Rather than CO with less men in a unit and called platoons or imaginative data manipulation to get it to play sort of tactical. What I'm seeing so far is the exact same game with a slighter more zoomed in map and unit's filled to platoon level but will act in the same ways as unit's in BFTB which act like coy's not platoons. Dave says in the link he thinks platoon level would be the scale for city fighting and would require new combat doctrines etc, however looking at the maps used in LOTB they don't seem zoomed in enough for me for platoon scale. The counter will be a lot bigger than the unit footprint by the looks of the current zoomed in map screenshots.

Here is the link where Dave mentions platoon scale and city fighting.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2726984&mpage=1&key=squad%2Cplatoon�

I'm not saying I'm not looking forward to it, however I'm viewing more like a normal CO release than a tactical version at the moment.

Edit: I found the post and Dave mentions big changes would be needed for Squad level not platoon level. Though I still put forward when I picture BFTB playing I have difficulty seeing the way it attacks (which looks right for Coy's) to the way platoons would attack. I think even if it has abit engine work on the combat side of things so the AI will attack with say two platoons up and one back or even try and bring them in from different sides would be excellent. I wnat to see the platoons react and move the way platoons would in real life than the way coy's do.

So DAve I beg you please give Bil the necessary feaures he asks for!

< Message edited by wodin -- 6/17/2012 8:03:57 PM >


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RE: LOTB and platoon level... - 6/17/2012 9:34:32 PM   
Bil H


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I want to say that first, the engine as is supports platoon level just fine. Sure I would love to have stuff like tactical smoke but that isn't really necessary for this first game.

Second, Dave and Paul have gone out of their way to support Warren and I in this endeavor and I hesitate to ask much more from them as we have to set priorities (only so many hours in a day), and as I really feel that major engine changes are not necessary to support this scale.

Guess you will have to wait until there is a demo to decide for yourself.

Bil

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RE: LOTB and platoon level... - 6/18/2012 1:18:33 AM   
wodin


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OK. Not having ago or anything here as I know how hard it is to develop\design a game and getting criticism before it's even seen isn't the greatest thing.

I applaud you in this but you have to expect a vocal group of tactical gamers who will want to see this have as much attention as the other games, otherwise we will feel like second best cousins.

I know RockinHarry tried to do Operation veritable at platoon level and struggled to get realistic historical results at this scale so scrapped it.

Anyway don't let me get you down in anyway thats the last thing I want. This thread is more directed at Dave to give this the time it deserves (in my opinion) as it is a scale I prefer over the previous games.

I'd probably have to try the demo first, however if I knew the engine was being tailored more towards the tactical side of things I'd buy straight away without bothering with a demo. It's RockinHarry's difficulties that make me concerned, he said there were just to many small things that stopped him getting realistic results or tactics.

Bil we both have a love for the smaller scale and smaller scenarios of CO. So you can see why I'd like this to be the best it can be.

< Message edited by wodin -- 6/18/2012 1:25:15 AM >


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RE: LOTB and platoon level... - 6/18/2012 2:37:54 AM   
BofH


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This isn't to say your expectations are wrong - but J perhaps what you were hoping for involves a much greater amount of re-development than PG is prepared to put in. From what you've said here and over on your forum, sounds to me that you imagined a whole new game release that heads off on a different tangent. You are clearly disappointed, but others are pretty excited about this.

I guess it all depends on one's expectations and hopes. I'm completely unsurprised by what has been described and announced about LOTB. It's pretty much what I expected from a platoon level Command Ops game and I will be happy to buy it.

The engine has come a long way over the years and Dave has plenty of plans for future refinements, LOTB probably won't represent the final state of platoon level development for the game, it's only the first step.

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RE: LOTB and platoon level... - 6/18/2012 8:56:05 PM   
wodin


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Chelco in his blog also thought it was going to be a new game with a revamped engine for tactical play. So I wasn't the only one thinking along those lines. Again like me he must have thought this was going to be a major new tactical series with a tweaked engine.

I hear tactical and my ears **** up and even more so when we are talking about Panther Games. I'm pleased a smaller scale is being developed and Bil said it will have a different feel to the other CO games which sounds promising and look forward to this aspect.

I'd like to see it be a new line in the series with equal standing on new features and engine changes as BFTB had compared to Cota and Cota to HTTR and so on. Sort of a duel development process for the two different scale games each having features tailored for the scale.

Still again I'm looking forward but alittle more skeptical. Infact I hope it sells really well and as you said may mean it starts to get mor engine improvements as each new release comes out.

Bil I'm sorry if my concerns bothered you. To be honest it would have bothered me when your putting time and effort into something and someone comes along and as the say pi#ses on your cornflakes. I appreciate your efforts and look forward to the game.

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RE: LOTB and platoon level... - 6/19/2012 12:46:42 AM   
Arjuna


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Let me clarify things. First off, LOTB will not involve a redesign of the engine. If that is what you are looking for then I'm sorry, it's not happening. It will be an evolutionary process with small increments of change rather than anything dramatic. I can see from these posts that there are those who would like us to gunn the engine and race off in a certain direction. But when you are running on fumes gunning the engine is going to leave you stranded pretty quick.

Will this approach satisfy everyone. No it won't. But it will deliver something new and we will be making some changes. Better that than nothing IMO. Remember a big journey is taken by a series of small steps.

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RE: LOTB and platoon level... - 6/19/2012 1:28:59 AM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I know RockinHarry tried to do Operation veritable at platoon level and struggled to get realistic historical results at this scale so scrapped it.



Hm..that wasn´t quite what I meant to say over at FB. I had few Plt sized units made to present HMG support units and such, as I was somewhat disappointed with HMG´s integrated in the standard Inf Coys. Beside that I used for my Op Veritable prototype battle just a slightly modified standard ESTAB, with Cpy size units beeing the standard.

The unhistorical results I encountered rather came from the general battle setup beeing attack on a tenacious defense (germans) and I figured the game engine does not handle it good enough to provide the sorts of historical results, I´d liked to see unfold. Whether the game engine truely is better suited for fluid, meeting engagement style battles or just my inability to tweak my battle setup to my expectations, I couldn´t conclude.

At last RL matters and a change of interest (to other wargame projects) got me stopped at Op Veritable for BftB. Not fully abandoned, but it´ll probably take me some more months, before I´ll return to it.

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RE: LOTB and platoon level... - 6/19/2012 2:27:05 AM   
wodin


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Whoops sorry but it seems like I'm being made out to be telling fibs here. You started that reply with " I´m a bit in doubt if Coy/Plt level works too well with the engine" and then went onto describe your issues with Ope Veritable not sure what other way it could be taken. As you describe weaponry\tactics and historical\realistic outcomes but no mention of it being your actual scenarios problem.

Not to happy as it now looks like I've just being stirring it up with no real foundation to go on.

Anyway though I did say to you in reply not to worry as work had been done on a military contract using platoon level, it turns out it never materialized. I presumed it did.

I also remember someone doing small scale tests and had difficulty in rnage and lethality etc.

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RE: LOTB and platoon level... - 6/19/2012 2:35:06 AM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Let me clarify things. First off, LOTB will not involve a redesign of the engine. If that is what you are looking for then I'm sorry, it's not happening. It will be an evolutionary process with small increments of change rather than anything dramatic. I can see from these posts that there are those who would like us to gunn the engine and race off in a certain direction. But when you are running on fumes gunning the engine is going to leave you stranded pretty quick.

Will this approach satisfy everyone. No it won't. But it will deliver something new and we will be making some changes. Better that than nothing IMO. Remember a big journey is taken by a series of small steps.



I've already spoke to Bil. It's only enthusiasm and passion for the scale you see here, not an attack on what is being done. Also as I said it was even put in a pretty popular blog that engine changes where happening though Bil replied and put him straight. SO we can't be blamed for getting our hopes above whats possible at the moment. I also thought changes had been done as I remember you saying that a military contract may involve a platoon level version, I thought it had happened, obviously not.

I like the sound of evolutionary steps, as you said better than nothing. Blimey why does it always feel like you've been told off by your teacher when Dave posts ;).

I doubt people wont buy it the way it's going to be whetehrt hey want more or not as it will still be a dman fine game and I do have faith in Bil and Warren.

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RE: LOTB and platoon level... - 6/19/2012 3:10:01 AM   
BofH


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

It's only enthusiasm and passion for the scale you see here, not an attack on what is being done.


That's clear, and actually this kind of discussion is quite normal whenever a new wargame is announced - or at least a new variation of an existing one. Naturally people are excited, for some people their hopes are realized, but not everyone. It's great that people are showing interest, even better that Dave takes time to add to the thread - unlike certain developers that allow all kinds of wild speculation to grow out of control on their own forums.

I think we're all on the same side here - we want more of a good thing :)

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