I do think the 2-3 deep hex defensive belts the Soviets are able to throw up with their unit spam is a bit problematic, especially as I can't think of any examples in 1941 of deep defensive belts like the Soviets used at Kursk.
Not sure what we're talking about now, how easy it is for Sovs to build forts, or how easy it is for Germans to attack them--those are two separate issues.
re building forts, I think there were plenty of fortifications in 1941 around Moscow, instance, and others could probably cite many other fortified locations. IIRC, the term "fortification levels" is kind of a misnomer--level 1 is simply foxholes for instance--I don't see what is unrealistic about the Sovs digging foxholes whereever they happen to be.
If we are talking about breaching forts, Level 1 and 2 forts are just not a serious obstacle in 1941 (a fortified ant is still an ant); while they will slow the Germans down a bit, they generally can't stop them, and even level 2 forts needs some time to construct.
What exactly is problematic about all of this? If anything, I think that Level 3 and higher forts may be too easy to overcome (and by 1943 this becomes much more of a problem for the Germans that the Sovs).
The problem I see is not how hard it is to dislodge a single hex with fortifications in it (there I agree with you), or even to break through a solid continuous line of level 2-3 forts. The problem is when that line is followed by another and another line immediately behind it, 2-3 hexes deep. This kind of deep defensive belt is what I thought the discussion was about in the first place, and what I refered to as a "gamey" tactic.
And while the Soviets have the ability to blanket key avenues of the front in 1941 with these 2-3 hex deep defensive belts, the Germans barely have enough units even to make a continuous defensive line one hex deep at any point in the war. I'm actually not arguing with that being the case for the Germans--- that's historical. What I I just don't see historically are many parallels for defenses 20-30 miles deep being employed by the Soviets, with the exception obviously of Kursk.
In fact, if any side was expert at creating "deep" defenses like this, it was the Germans in the earlier periods of the war. Glantz's second volume on Stalingrad has good examples of how relatively weak German units on the flanks of the city were able to halt Soviet counter attacks with these kind of belts (just to cite an example of the top of my head). But even here, in terms of game scale, these defensive belts were hardly 10 miles deep (and thus should be reflected in fortification level in game terms), hardly the 20-30 mile deep Soviet belts one routinely sees in the game.
< Message edited by map66 -- 6/17/2012 6:00:49 AM >